Last Reply - Bhatra Community Thread

[JRoudh 13]

I was going to post a message as my last reply to Bhatra community thread a few days ago but I accidentally deleted it which was a shame as it was a long detailed post. Anyway If I could ask the admin to my put my last reply in the topic this would be greatly appreciated as the topic has now been locked.

But the Jist of my reply was the following.

The Bhatra community thread I made was not intended to be about caste. It was actually intended to bring all Sikhs together and create more unity. What is wrong with pointing out the achievements of the Bhatra Sikh community in any case? There is nothing wrong in doing this. It’s not about my caste/community is better then yours. Its about celebrating achievements that all Sikh communities have made for the the Khalsa Panth. Infact all Sikhs should be proud of the Bhat achievements in the UK. Sikhs were the first people to mass migrate to the UK from the Punjab. All Sikhs regardless of their background or where they come from should all take pride in this as fellow Sikhs. Sikhs being the first out of the whole India to come to the UK and establish ourselves.

Ramghria/Jat/Khatri ect have all made individual and unique contributions to Sikhism and if people would like to point that out. I for one will not object to that, as any success that is achieved by a fellow Sikh will reflect on all Sikhs. We can also learn about Sikh history in this way. It is very important that Sikhs know about our amazing past ie of how Sikhism started ect.I think the aim of the thread has now been achieved ie raising awareness about the Bhatra community. And removing any misconceptions that some people may have had.

Now that has been done I think we should all unite as one Sikh community. Hopefully a day will come when there wont be a Bhatra community or a Jat/Tharkan comunity ect there will just be one group, simply known as the Sikh community.

For people who would like to know more information about the the Bhat Sikh community can go to www.Bhatra.co.uk This site has alot of details and pictures from the sangat.

JigsawSingh

The intention of my thread was to unite all the Sikhs under one umbrella of the Khalsa instead of all the divisions that exist todaythat stop this from happening.With regards to Bhatra Population it is actually probably around 100.000 you have to take account of the fact that Bhatra families generally tend to be very large. While Jat/Tharkan families are usually on the smaller side. This is one reason why Bhatras are the fastest growing Sikh community in the UK. I am pretty sure as a conservative figure that it is 100.000 at least if not more. Taking into account that there are 3 main Sikh communities in the UK. Jat/Tharkan/Bhatra The current total population of Sikhs in the UK is around 500.000. The Bhatra community also started to migrate to the UK at a much earlier time.

There is no need to talk about this further now as the aim of the thread has been achieved.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguri Ji Ki Fateh

[ms514 425]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Ok, let me try to reply to this and bring up a point. Perhaps the productive nature of this posting would be to focus on highlighting caste and its detriment.

It seems that you are from the UK. It is blaringly obvious for anyone living in the UK that many Gurdwaras are made on the basis of caste, correct? Why is that? Because the concept of caste continues to be propagated. People will highlight how many Sikhs are from Jatt historical background and feel so much pride in their "Jattness" that they will not let other "types of Sikhs" aka. castes be a part of that Gurdwara. The Ramgharias will highlight the history of Jassa Singh Ramgharia and how he was so cool, that they just had to make Ramgharia named Gurdwaras, and of course, not let other "types of Sikhs" be a part of the committees (this is in their Gurdwara CONSTITUTION!!!). From these two genius caste-mongers was born the Ravidas Gurdwaras, which went as far as to alter the Nishan Sahib and remove the Khanda, proclaim Bhagat Ravidaas as "Guru Ravidaas" and now spawned a new religious group that has removed parkash of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and replaced it with another granth, effectively making them not Sikhs.

Because having this pride in your own division translates to the old men and women in the Gurdwara asking what caste you are and making associations strictly because of them. Because then, instead of being called simply a Gurdwara, it is called a "Jattan Da Gurdwara" or "Sainian Da Gurdwara" or "Chammaran Da Gurdrwara".

Seriously, wake up. Let's talk reality of the so called castes. When the invasions began of India, the foreigners would line up all of the Indians, tell them to open their mouths and spit in them. Where were your proud castes then? When your great great great great grandmothers were sold for pennies in the open market and made as slaves for the whims and pleasures of the foreign invaders, where were your proud castist forefathers?

SIKHI is the reason that you have any position in the world, not Bhatra, Jatt, Ramgharia, Harijan, etc. Don't fool yourself into these divisions and understand that they perpetuate splinters in the Sikh faith and cause tensions. The unintended and real consequences that you don't see is the divisions that these lead to, divisions that result in physical fights, breaking from Sikhi and other things that have no use for Sikhi.

Think I am chatting nonsense? Go watch this video and realize that these labels actually result in:

This goes for all castes - when they come outside, they see caste as "their own" and huddle together in their own divisions rather than live as part of the Sikh Panth. They fight each other, refusing to see each other as brothers and sisters, but rather as someone else. It goes as extreme as having "Bishkarma Gurdwara" type creations, an oxymoron and an insult to Sikhi.

Summary: Caste divisions and highlighting these "communities" are one of the MAJOR forces DESTROYING Sikhi. WAKE UP!

[Mehtab Singh 3,899]

When the invasions began of India, the foreigners would line up all of the Indians, tell them to open their mouths and spit in them. Where were your proud castes then? When your great great great great grandmothers were sold for pennies in the open market and made as slaves for the whims and pleasures of the foreign invaders, where were your proud castist forefathers?

How dare you say that! Those kind of insults are specifically reserved for Hindus only!

[kharkusingh1996 231]

What is a bhatra? What is a jatt? No such things.

[S1ngh 1,710]

Good post ns514

[ms514 425]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Per the request of my father (yes, he reads this forum), I am also posting the another detriment of the caste divisions that seems to not be addressed as prominently.

When we look at the programs by anti-Sikh forces such as Jhootha Sauda and KaalMailas (Noormehilas), did you ever wonder where all of that population is coming from? How deras, with no real ideology or standing, are attracting thousands of followers? How Radha Soamis and the Rampals of the world have any devotees?

Yep, caste has something to do what that too. As in the above video, when the "low caste" Sikhs are not able to enter, participate or be a part of the general Sikh community and are shunned, they will turn to other places for spiritual or (more likely) community support. They end up at these deras and are then used against Sikhs, even though they are from Sikh backgrounds.

These shunned Sikhs are also what make a bedrock of the Christian converts that are in the Punjab today.

So next time someone has to get on a pedestal and start to get all gaa-gaa over their caste affiliations - remember that such parchar not only divides the Sikh community, but also fans an exodus of Sikhs to deras and anti-Sikh groups. We are turning our own against us.

[JagsawSingh 860]

I do respect Roudh's wish to articulate his community's culture and traditions. It's obviously something that means alot to him, although I do find his constant theme of 'bhatra's being the most strict and traditional Sikhs' somewhat confusing, if not difficult to swallow.

Perhaps, Roudh, you can educate us further on the Bhatt Sikhs by giving a good explanation about 2 very curious traditions bhatra Sikhs have, namely:

1. KHUL KARAN DI RASAM and....
2. MOURVI MAKAAN

I notice you deliberately left many traditions, including the 2 above, out of the long lectures you've given us on a couple of threads. I'm sure the rest of the sangat here would be delighted to know what the 2 above relate to and it will, of course, help make up their minds as to 'how good a Sikhs' the bhatras are. ????

[JSinghnz 1,086]

I do respect Roudh's wish to articulate his community's culture and traditions. It's obviously something that means alot to him, although I do find his constant theme of 'bhatra's being the most strict and traditional Sikhs' somewhat confusing, if not difficult to swallow.

Perhaps, Roudh, you can educate us further on the Bhatt Sikhs by giving a good explanation about 2 very curious traditions bhatra Sikhs have, namely:

1. KHUL KARAN DI RASAM and....
2. MOURVI MAKAAN

I notice you deliberately left many traditions, including the 2 above, out of the long lectures you've given us on a couple of threads. I'm sure the rest of the sangat here would be delighted to know what the 2 above relate to and it will, of course, help make up their minds as to 'how good a Sikhs' the bhatras are. ????

Small things amuse small minds.

The Sangat is least interested or delighted in your narrow minded, casteist, mindset.

In fact we are all sick of it.

[JagsawSingh 860]

Small things amuse small minds.

The Sangat is least interested or delighted in your narrow minded, casteist, mindset.

In fact we are all sick of it.

Oooh I think you'd find KHUL KARAN DI RASAM and MOURVI MAKAAN more than interesting. In fact you'd find it shocking, not to mention disturbing that any group identifying themselves as 'Sikhs' could have such practices.

If however, you prefer to live your life in the dark, frightened of picking up information and knowledge about things going on around you, then obviously I understand your reluctance to learn anything new.

[JSinghnz 1,086]

Like I said earlier castes and casteist practices amuse small minds like you. So enjoy and delight around such nonsense going around you.

[gurdssingh 113]

How dare you say that! Those kind of insults are specifically reserved for Hindus only!

Slightly confused, you are a first generation Sikh , from Hindu Brahmin stock. So are you ashamed of your ancestors? BTW majority of Sikh have Hindu ancestors way back, so only disrespecting your forefathers saying stuff like that.

[gurdssingh 113]

JRoudh your posts seem hypocritical as you say many things that Bhatreh do is upholding pure Sikhi. On iPad so can't type much but you say majority use Singh. Yet your username has your caste surname, plus you list many caste surnames in previous thread. The videos in previous thread, that was not a Sikh wedding celebration but a Punjabi Bhatra celebration, dancing and drinking alcohol -not Sikh like. Also almost all guys wearing a pagh had trimmed beards, so again your theory of you guys rep ping pure Sikhi and not doing beadbi of kesh, we'll evidence you presented does not support your claims.

[gurdssingh 113]

Oooh I think you'd find KHUL KARAN DI RASAM and MOURVI MAKAAN more than interesting. In fact you'd find it shocking, not to mention disturbing that any group identifying themselves as 'Sikhs' could have such practices.

If however, you prefer to live your life in the dark, frightened of picking up information and knowledge about things going on around you, then obviously I understand your reluctance to learn anything new.

Please can you share what those customs are? As a google search brings up a baht community site which states they are 'bad old customs', but what exactly are those rituals? No other info on web.

[JSinghnz 1,086]

Slightly confused, you are a first generation Sikh , from Hindu Brahmin stock. So are you ashamed of your ancestors? BTW majority of Sikh have Hindu ancestors way back, so only disrespecting your forefathers saying stuff like that.

So called Sikhs believing in the caste system are not slightly confused they are fully confused. Sardar Mehtab Singh is a caste less Gursikh unlike you.So refrain from writing such casteist comments about him or any other Gursikh for that matter.

[Mehtab Singh 3,899]

Slightly confused, you are a first generation Sikh , from Hindu Brahmin stock. So are you ashamed of your ancestors? BTW majority of Sikh have Hindu ancestors way back, so only disrespecting your forefathers saying stuff like that.

No veerji, that comment was a sarcastic one

I am not disrespecting my ancestors or am ashamed of them one single bit. In fact, whatever I've found out about my elders especially in just the past year, I can only thank Guru Sahib for being born where I was born.

So called Sikhs believing in the caste system are not slightly confused they are fully confused. Sardar Mehtab Singh is a caste less Gursikh unlike you.So refrain from writing such casteist comments about him or any other Gursikh for that matter.

Relax veerji, its all good. I am used to it by now, especially on this forum.

I just hope some day few generations later my kids and grandkids who come after me will be seen only as Sikhs and nothing else. I pray they don't have to suffer these kinds of comments and insults.