Casteism Eating Up Sikhism+ Matrimonial Issues

[puzzled]

4 hours ago, DailyMail said:

And yet the Sikh Rehat Marayada as per the Akal Thakt is unequivocally against even asking what caste the spouse is and insists that a Sikh is to marry a Sikh regardless of the caste. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji clearly shows that caste is a non-Sikh entity and has no bearing on character etc.

This, however, did not stop the numerically dominant Jats from separating so called lower castes at the village level, differentiating where each caste was to reside in any given village. Why so? Can any person on this forum answer this? 

Isn't it the case that many jats converted to Sikhi after caste abolition by the Sikh Gurus and rather than submit to the casteless protocol of Sikhi, the Jats separated themselves from everyone else (literally at village level) and ensured that the so called lower castes would always be reminded, that they will never be on equal terms. This manifested in separate Regiments (Sikh Regt v Sikh Light Infantry) to this very day. An utterly ridiculous concept that flies in the face of common sense, Sikhi and gurmat.

Until this anti-sikh caste division at the village level is destroyed, the Jats will never allow the casteless Sikh inspired society to flourish, be it in the village, the Regiment, etc.

Only then will Sikhs marry other Sikhs regardless of caste en masse.

 

Even if you eliminate jatts from Punjab completely your deluded to think that the caste system will just disappear just like that. Jatts disappear it will only result in another caste taking over. B4 bhamans ruled, after bhamans it became the khatris, after khatris its now jatts, after jatts it will be someone else.  You really think a khatri sikh or a saini sikh or a bhaman sikh will get their kids married to mazhbi sikhs?  whats a jatts role in that?    

Here in the UK my cousins friend is a thakan and he was in a relationship with a sikh bhatra girl, the girls father did not approve of the relationships and it took the guy 10 yrs of convincing and then the girls father eventually agreed that too because everyone knew about the relationship. Now imagine is they were in punjab  would her father of ever agreed? no  

My dads pind is dominated by sainis and tarkhans, so how did jatts divide the pind? the singh sabha gurdwara in my dads pind has been ran by a tarkhan family for generations you really think they would ever give a mazhbi sikh a position in that gurdwara?, the current granthi in my friend he's also a body builder too!   and also in doaba where im from  sainis sikhs who are zamindars and of rajput origin are more dominant that jatts in some parts of doaba, try telling them 

My point is if  jatts lose position in Punjab it will only result in another community taking over. and caste discrimination isnt only limited to jatts!  try telling the the khatris, bhamans, sainis to drop their caste!

jatts are fast moving abroad in mass numbers, its only a matter of time another caste will take over, just watch ...         in 1947 khatri sikhs left punjab and settled in delhi and jatts took over,    now jatts are moving abroad and som1 else will take over,  discrimination will still be there but from a new dominant caste ....

[DailyMail]

3 hours ago, puzzled said:

the singh sabha gurdwara in my dads pind has been ran by a tarkhan family for generations you really think they would ever give a mazhbi sikh a position in that gurdwara?

The sheer irony being the main leader behind the Singh Sabha movement was Giani Ditt Singh - who belonged to a sub-section of the community that today probably wouldn't even be allowed to run a gurdwara at the pind level let alone a nationwide morcha against the mahants which is precisely what Giani Ditt Singh and Prof Gurmukh Singh did over 100 years ago. For what end though - most Singh Sabha gurdwarae are now run by Jats who are unaware that it was a Ramdasia Sikh of the Lahore Singh Sabha who firstly defeated Khem Singh Bedi of the Amritsar Singh Sabha and then the Arya Samaj. 

Your dads pind may be dominated by non-jats but I'm talking about the State-wide collective - around 66% of Sikhs come from one community or so we're told. Whilst some move abroad (and have done for 100+ years) there's still substantial numbers in Punjab. You would need a collective mass of 10 million to leave Punjab for any seismic changes to occur. There's only a handful of jats abroad compared to Punjab, in real terms. 

I make no apologies for saying that when I saw Army papers at the National Archives of India showing that when the British tried to mix jats with mazbhis and ramdasia sikhs, it was the jats who almost caused a riot in the regimental gurdwara  - and then they wonder why everyone blames them. The British had to relocate the men into other regiments.

It's generally one community in Punjab that has upheld anti-Sikh 'manusmriti' principles in Punjabi villages and I certainly wont be pointing fingers at tarkhans, khatris and sainis, thats for sure.

[puzzled]

30 minutes ago, DailyMail said:

Your dads pind may be dominated by non-jats but I'm talking about the State-wide collective - around 66% of Sikhs come from one community or so we're told. Whilst some move abroad (and have done for 100+ years) there's still substantial numbers in Punjab. You would need a collective mass of 10 million to leave Punjab for any seismic changes to occur. There's only a handful of jats abroad compared to Punjab, in real terms. 

jatts make around 20% of punjabs populations   thats not much at all, mass migration to the west is mainly from the jatt community and this migration will continue to the point where the vacuum will be filled by another community, perhaps not in the next few decades but definitely will in the future .  there already are millions of jatts abroad and that does not include the illegal immigrants. 

 

30 minutes ago, DailyMail said:

It's generally one community in Punjab that has upheld anti-Sikh 'manusmriti' principles in Punjabi villages and I certainly wont be pointing fingers at tarkhans, khatris and sainis, thats for sure.

then you clearly dont know what your talking about.  do your think any of the above communities you mentioned will get their daughters married to mazbhi sikhs in the pinds?  if not they why wont they?    coz they too see themselves above the mazbhi sikhs. not too long ago there was video floating about how rajput refused to take amrit from the same bata as mazbhi sikhs, will those same rajput sikhs happily marry their daughters off to mazhbi sikhs?  no?  why not?  

im not here defending jats lol   my point is the power is gnna eventually pass onto another community, it always has, but is that gnna end the caste system? nope ....   

also punjab politics is dominated by jatts-khatris   

i put my money on khatris once again dominating punjab politics and society in the future, not yet   but in a few decades time .... 

[dallysingh101]

9 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

 

The sakhi where a poor sikh spilled spots of paint on dasam patshah. And guru ji said to slap him . All the niktvarti sikhs ran to slap him and ended up bearing him severly. Guru ji was displeased and said he was supposed to he slapped not beaten. The sikhs all pleaded we were just following hukam. Then guruji said, fine marrynur daughter to him. All were silent. Until one sikh stepped up. 

Also bhai manj that married his daughter to a badmaash. 

 

I'd glad you picked up on that first sakhi which is from Parchian Sewa Das (I believe) and thus contemporary to dasmesh padshah themselves. People say there is no evidence of Guru ji being unconcerned about inter caste marriage, but here we have contemporary proof. 

Also, Prem Sumarag, begrudgingly accepts the reality of caste marriages, clearly stating that this isn't the Khalsa way and that the Khalsa will be one (and by implication above this) in future.

Then you also have the sakhi of a clear discussion taking place in Chaupa Singh's rehit. And Guru ji telling the sangat to put their cases forward backed by Gurbani. 

 

So this notion that caste based marriages wasn't something that many Sikhs tried to confront and address is plain false, and only pushed by pro-casteists.  

Then we have the well known practice of Juts buying girls from 'lower caste' for brides on top of that too. Most of you would have had a so called 'low caste' female ancestor - to put things in perspective.

 

PS - What's that last sakhi with Bhai Manj? I can't remember ever hearing it. 

[puzzled]

31 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Then we have the well known practice of Juts buying girls from 'lower caste' for brides on top of that too. Most of you would have had a so called 'low caste' female ancestor - to put things in perspective.

it wasn't a practice it was done by poor people who can't getting married into the same biraadri   lol!   they still do that in haryana i watched a documentary, not sure if they were jaats but people who financially struggle in haryana they end up buying brides from UP and Bihar.  widowed men do that in Punjab as well   there was a short movie called kuddesan about it.   men who come from poor families in Punjab they still do buy brides from neighboring states.  lol    its weird  

[DoabeyWali]

On 3/17/2020 at 6:45 AM, Not2Cool2Argue said:

The one about the rani who wouldnt lift her veil and went crazy. Later on a woodcutter sikh married her.

I have heard this story before. A very long time ago but can't for the life of me remember it. 

It's really bugging me now. What is the full story? I need to know!

[Guest Singh]

On 8/25/2015 at 9:16 AM, Guest Jyotsaroop said:

For Hindu Muslims Sikh Isai for all have the message of Equality n give us the message of to think above caste color religion status language their shouldn't be discriminationon the basis of caste color religion or Race .

How so?

Hindu's treat Dalits like dirt as justified by their religious scriptures like Manu Smriti

Prophet Muhammad was a white-skinned Slavemaster who sold black African children into Slavery for financial profit. The Quran support slavery.

Christianity like Islam openly supports slavery too so what equality do Hinduism, Islam and Christianity offer humanity?

The answer is none. Only Sikhi guarantees total equality in religious terms.

 

 

 

[Guest Singh]

On 3/14/2020 at 2:39 PM, puzzled said:

Nothing wrong with marrying someone of your own caste/background   

How about the fact that it's against Sikhi?

All the gurus married within their own caste,

That has been well proven as Hindu and Muslim lie to denigrate everything our Guru Sahibaan stood for and fought for? If Mata Gujjar Kaur was from a Gujjar background and the Sodhi clan is a non-Khatri doesn't that educate that this so-called Khatri this Khatri that nonsense is a total lie! If Dhan Dhan Guri Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's father was undoubtedly from a Khatri background it does not follow that all subsequent Guru Sahibaan nor their Mahals were Khatri as the usual Mughal lie asserts.

in fact I dont think there is a single case of a sikh from our ithiaas who marries out of his caste.

That means, with all due respect, that you clearly have not read much about Sikh history. If the example of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj being from Gujjar as well as other backgrounds is not sufficient proof for you then I rest my case.

But at the same time they all ate together regardless of their background.

Precisely and that is why the Hindu+Muslim caste system is anti-Sikhi.

Like I come from a very traditional family and I cant see myself marrying someone who is a khatri because culturally they can be very different and our families will just not gel. The cultural difference will get in the way.

The irony of you thinking the above nonsense as a non-Khatri Sodhi yourself is comical. Khatri's don't have the same red blood as others!

 

[Guest Singh]

On 3/17/2020 at 8:21 AM, DailyMail said:

And yet the Sikh Rehat Marayada as per the Akal Takht is unequivocally against even asking what caste the spouse is and insists that a Sikh is to marry a Sikh regardless of the caste.

Exactly and anybody arguing in support of the wretched Hindu+Muslim caste system or in support of matrimonial apartheid clearly has no connection to Sikhi

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji clearly shows that caste is a non-Sikh entity and has no bearing on character etc.

100% you are totally correct

This, however, did not stop the numerically dominant Jats

DM Singh this is a demographic myth foisted upon us by the 80% of Jatts who are Muslim and Hindu such as the Jatt who was Pakistan's 1st Prime Minister and Jatts like Sajjan Kumar who delighted in murdering Sikhs. Less than 25% of the Punjab population are Jatts. Sikh comprise around 50-55% of the Punjab population. Thus those of Jatt ancestry are a clear minority amongst the adherents of the Sikh faith.

Isn't it the case that many jats converted to Sikhi after caste abolition by the Sikh Gurus

That is correct and we see in the Panj Piare that most were non-Punjabi and that most were the from the downtrodden castes liberated by the Truth of Sikhi.

and rather than submit to the casteless protocol of Sikhi, the Jats separated themselves from everyone else

If we look at the example of the Ramgarhia Misl it can be seen that a Misl founded by an Amritdhari casteless Sikh (of admittedly Jatt ancestry) the torch of leadership was passed on the basis of merit to another Amritdhari casteless Sikh (Sardar Jassa Singh Ramgarhia) and that under the leadership of an erstwhile so-called Tarkhan (as Muslims and Hindu's viewed) we see Amritdhari warriors of erstwhile Jatt, Khatri, Saini, Ravidassia, Brahmin, Bhatra etc all fighting under his leadership so much so that Tarkhans were no more than a 10% minority of the warriors within the Ramgarhia misl as we clearly see from our Itihaas.

This manifested in separate Regiments (Sikh Regt v Sikh Light Infantry) to this very day. An utterly ridiculous concept that flies in the face of common sense, Sikhi and gurmat.

Agreed the concept of caste is totally anti-Sikhi. Separate Gurdwara's are totally and intolerably anti-Sikhi. Matrimonial apartheid is utterly and intolerably anti-Sikhi. But do recall that the separation of Sikhs into separate regiments was done by the British to divide and conquer. Just like how the Muslims and Hindu's know that Sikhs can be destroyed from within by their emphasising pro-caste lies against the Sikh dharam and our Guru Sahibaans.

Until this anti-sikh caste division at the village level is destroyed, the Jats will never allow the casteless Sikh inspired society to flourish, be it in the village, the Regiment, etc.

Agreed. Without the target of only one Gurdwara per pind or town in the West being achieved Sikhi amongst the masses will to all intents and purposes be heading towards annihilation.  

Only then will Sikhs marry other Sikhs regardless of caste en masse.

Yes - it is key that matrimonial apartheid among Sikhs is eradicated and condemned in the strongest possible terms if we are to progress. United we stand and divide. When Pakistani Jatts are busy grooming Sikh girls or when Pakistani Jatts and Pakistani Brahmins were busy raping Sikh women in the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs they never really bothered to check the biraderi of the victims they killed and raped. 

 

[Guest Singh]

On 3/17/2020 at 12:13 PM, puzzled said:

the singh sabha gurdwara in my dads pind has been ran by a tarkhan family for generations you really think they would ever give a mazhbi sikh a position in that gurdwara?

The Lahore Singh Sabha Gurdwara's of Giani Ditt Singh Ji have overwhelmingly always had Granthi's of Mazhabi and Ravidassi ancestry running them in Punjab since inception. It is only in countries like the UK where British bootlickers of Indira Gandhi and the British Empire have tried to besmirch the Singh Sabha name  as being associated with a singular caste - despite the united Singh Sabha Gurdwara's in which all castes are present being avowedly anti-caste. 

Nowadays the same anti-Sikh forces who are trying to attack the anti-caste ideology of Giani Ditt Singh Ji's Singh Sabha are the same ones who try to make Sikhs embarassed of our overwhelmingly village backgrounds in an effort to disconnect us from our language and the gareeb village origins of most Sikhs.

The Pakistani Jatts and Pakistani Khatri's take particular delight in speaking Urdu while leaving Punjabi for the "pendu" Sikhs. And similarly the Hindu Jatts and Hindu Tarkhans believe that speaking Hindi makes them superior to their Sikh cousins whom they deride as mere "pendu's" as a consequence of their defiance in continuing to speak Punjabi at a village level. But the "pendu" jibe against Sikhs from Hindu's and Muslims is beginning to have an effect in that nowadays even in urban east Punjab many Sikh children are becoming ashamed to speak Punjabi sadly and if the trend continues there could well come a day when our opponents succeeds in making have such an inferiority complex of our own village roots that speaking Punjabi becomes unfashionable even in the villages of east Punjab. Having only a single united Gurdwara in each and every pind in the Punjab in this decade will be key to Sikhi's survival in Punjab.