Casteism Eating Up Sikhism+ Matrimonial Issues

[JSingh01]

Dear Fellow Members,

I want to discuss the growing matter of casteism in Sikhism, As far as I am aware when our Guru ji created/started panth khalsa. He abolished all the evil roots of casteism in Sikh culture and he created a guideline that a sikh should be identified and known as a sikh . And there should be no place of caste system in SIkh culture.

But look at us today, we are so lost in casteism itself that we are known as Jat sikhs or Khatri sikhs or ramgharia and so on (No offense to anyone)

Even though we have dedicated gurudwaras to the different community here. I dont mean to harm anyone emotions here. Please pardon me if I have. But what do you all think as a sikh. Is it correct to give uprise to casteism itself in our culture which guru ji abolished. Please give me your views.

And Another thing is that this issue is being promoted in regards to the marriages as well.

I am a Sikh for all I know, But where ever I or my parents speak about the matrimony.

The first question which is being asked is what caste do you belong to. I mean how does it matters ?

If I am a jat or khatri or ramgharia, we all are sikhs and thats what should be imp. But for about 80% it matters a lot. I dont know what difference does it makes but Jatts only wanna marry in their same caste and so as ramgharias. How does it matters that if a person is a wierdo and do all sort of crazy stuff like drugs and do all kind of thngs but while marrying their daughter to him wont be an issue, only bcoz he is of their same caste.

And on the other hand there is a guy like me who is educated, decent, religious person but nope, they wont marry their daughter with him only bcoz I do not belong to their caste. I have had enough of this caste system.

And then there is another issue which is only because I wear a turban and don't trim my beard, most of the girls wont go for a guy like me bcoz of this reason.

Its such a shamefull thing to say that people who are taking care of our Gurudwara have started registering for matrimonial alliance and they have put an option where a girl has to opt that does she needs a turbaned sikh or a clean shaven. If the gurudwara will support these actions then who is gonna stand with the gursikhs ?

I mean this is the limits where these people can go. What kind of Sikh is a Clean shaven, A clean shaven person is not a sikh. He has lost the main identity of being a sikh.

I have seen a lot of people who are going thru these difficulties and because of these things boys are cutting down there kesh and going out of sikhi.

Please let me know your views on this. And again please if I have hurted any ones emotions, knowingly or unknowingly. Please accept my apologies.

[jkvlondon]

Admin Veer ji can we just point Veer ji here to all the previous threads ad nauseum on this topic rather than going through the pointless rigmarole of saying the same things ?

iT'S SIMPLE , AS A SIKH:

To believe in Jaat Paat- is to call Guru Gobind SIngh's Amrit Water - if you are the Guru's sikh YOU WILL NEVER DO THAT

To demand a dowry- Guru Gobind SIngh ji said YOU ARE NOT MY SIKH

To celebrate with meat and Sharab and dancing - You will be going against GURMATTA

look closely before you leap to becoming down, why not thank your Guru ji who has kept you away from adharmi lok instead of looking on it as some sad thing

[savinderpalsingh]

admin please close this topic, it will cause further issue which wont solve anything in pointless thing.

singh if you have time , kindly do simran or sewa or nitnem . no point in wasting time .

[Guest Guptsinghh]

Savinderpal veerji why be scared. It will cause further issues which are manmatt. Are you happy to allow this without even speaking???

[Guest MazhabiSingh]

Ki gall pissu pai gaye saareyan nun hun? Koi comment ni aya.

[singhbj singh]

Bhai ji most of the sevadars, raagis, pathis, granthis are from what society considers "low caste" but due to WAHEGURU's grace n change in Karma they are well respected.

Most Bhein te Ma di gallan are spoken for corrupt people in power or those who consider themselves as high caste.

So our actions play a big role rather than caste in getting recognition in society.

[Koi]

Sikh hove, Sikh ki puchhe jaat.

So Sikh nahi mera, aad jugaad.

[Quantavius]

Our gurus didn't remove caste system. They couldn't remove it as simple as that. They spoke against it and they wrote against it and we are always thankful for that. But when it came to the point of Gurgaddi, they still gave it to Khatris and kept it all within the family. Why? Can someone comment? Our gurus could not remove caste system and we are examples of that.

Why was not Mazhabi Sikhs of the time valued who kept company of all the Guru sahibs and gave blood for Guru Ji, were given their due share and an 8 year old became our Guru Sahib (Guru Harkishan Sahib). Guru Har Rai, Guru Harkishan, Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib were all part of same family. I am not questioning Guru's choice but what did us Mazhabi Singhs get other than being called choora chamar in Sikhi ill today?

So our Guru sahibs gave equality in religion and there was no equality in society. And having no equality in society and equality in religion means nothing.

And I am Mazhabi Sikh btw.

When we talk about caste system what I humbly believe is it's about social strata of society. I don't know much about casteism in India except for what I've read and heard. For example, I met this one Rajput (I believe) guy long time ago who was from Gujerat (or Rajastan I forget) outside of India. He told me that all government jobs in the state of Gujerat are given to Rajputs. It's an unwritten rule. This is what I believe our Gurus were against.

IMHO Guruship was given to the most able from a spiritual standpoint. It's not some 'social activism' where you choose the least able all in the name of 'equality'. You are equal when you are given equal opportunity to succeed. However trying to artificially create an equal outcome is not equality anymore. Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. For example Hillary Clinton is running for POTUS and many claim she should be voted solely just because she's a woman in order to give women a chance to lead. But is she the ablest among all candidates out there? This is what I mean.

To the OP in regards to marriage, I believe this is something personal and not something you can force others to do. IMHO I believe that Jatts, Khatris, Shimba....are actually different tribes in ancient times who amalgamated and formed today's Punjabis. From what I've seen, people want to marry someone from the same mindset and culture. It's a tribal thing. FYI from what I've heard there was a time even Jatt Malwais and Majha's would not go to each other's Gurdwaras and marry from each other.

Anyway in this day and age the 'new' caste system is based on how big your bank account is. LOL!

[Guest MazhabiSingh]

@Quantavius, how much capability has a 8 year old has that he is made Guru. It is a sad state when you don't find anybody more able than a 8 year old child. Why don't we admit that it was basically family tradition of making gurus like Nirankaris and other deras, was existing even at times of Gurus.

When other Gurus didn't give Guru Status to Guru Granth Sahib, why did Guru Gobind Singh did it? Was it because he didn't want to give us Mazhabis their share and now when time had come to offer Guruship, he made GGS as Guru which his elders gurus didn't do it? Didn't he go against wishes of Guru Arjun Dev Ji? We gave lots and lots of blood for Gurus to get discrimination in return and woefully sidelined today. What about Gurusahib giving Kalgi to Bhai Sangat Singh?. Doesn't giving Kalgi mean giving guruship ?

[Kira]

When we talk about caste system what I humbly believe is it's about social strata of society. I don't know much about casteism in India except for what I've read and heard. For example, I met this one Rajput (I believe) guy long time ago who was from Gujerat (or Rajastan I forget) outside of India. He told me that all government jobs in the state of Gujerat are given to Rajputs. It's an unwritten rule. This is what I believe our Gurus were against.

IMHO Guruship was given to the most able from a spiritual standpoint. It's not some 'social activism' where you choose the least able all in the name of 'equality'. You are equal when you are given equal opportunity to succeed. However trying to artificially create an equal outcome is not equality anymore. Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. For example Hillary Clinton is running for POTUS and many claim she should be voted solely just because she's a woman in order to give women a chance to lead. But is she the ablest among all candidates out there? This is what I mean.

To the OP in regards to marriage, I believe this is something personal and not something you can force others to do. IMHO I believe that Jatts, Khatris, Shimba....are actually different tribes in ancient times who amalgamated and formed today's Punjabis. From what I've seen, people want to marry someone from the same mindset and culture. It's a tribal thing. FYI from what I've heard there was a time even Jatt Malwais and Majha's would not go to each other's Gurdwaras and marry from each other.

Anyway in this day and age the 'new' caste system is based on how big your bank account is. LOL!

Our Guru Sahibs were heavily against the Caste System. Once you drink Amrit, God becomes your caste, Guru Gobind Singh Ji becomes your father and Mata Sundri becomes your mother. There is no place for Caste System in Sikhism. There's nothing logical about it and anyone who does take pride or think it's alright for it to exist is simply trying to corrupt Sikhism. Almost all Rehets are universal on this that once you take Amrit, you're past self,name,caste,occupation is all razed.

Though that bank account analogy is spot on :yay: