Why Muslim Punjabis Are Future Of The Punjabi Peoples Globally

[mrggg123]

Its funny how paks say "our ancestors became muslims coz of sufi saints". Well how come, these same sufi saints, were not allowed into masjids then? How come they were ostracized for singin n using music to spread gods word n then demonised by the new converts, n called k@njars/k@njaris/marasis? Baba farid, wasnt even allowed into a mosque, or given a permission for muslim burial, yet his kind were the ones who supposedly spread islam somehow. Does that mean for eg.- mr mehta rai gets supposedly enlightened by a sufi saint, converts n changes his name to muhammed rai, n then in a split second looks at the sufi saint n says "right thanks for convertin me, now stop this singin/dancin bakwaas, or ill will kill u, u kuffar, this isnt allowed?" Theres a reason y, mardhana, farid, kabir, gani/nabi khans, mian mir, pir buddu shah etc got more love from sikhs and had love for our gurus, than ppl frm their own community.

Pak taliban targeting sufi shrines in sindh (sevan sharif) n in panjab aswel, yet apprntly, their ancestors were supposedly converted by these very same shrine inhabitants....absolute joke!

Also I like it when mirpuris for example say IM PATHAN but really they are chowhdury or raja or my family used to be sikhs thinking you will convert or something because of this, yeh right...I just say yeh my family used to be muslim as well you can check out my name they came from some central asian country lol

[DTF]

Now that the Muslim troll has thankfully gone let's consider some points that we need to strongly address internally as Sikhs.

Out of the 160 million plus pre-1947 Punjab area ethnic Punjabi population today, it's true that the statistics roughly break down as:

Muslims 62.5%

Christians 2.5%

Hindu's 25%

Sikhs 10%

So if we look at pre-1947 Punjab areas today, as a result of our community's relative financial success our fertility rates are lower and our percentage of the Punjabi population and indeed Indian population are actually declining. East Punjab's high population density is not condusive to large families either. If we include those that speak Hindi and Urdu then we only comprise roughly one in ten of ethnic Punjabi's nowadays. What that should tell us is that Sikhi has no exclusive connection to the Punjabi people per se and that we should broaden our outlook to focus on new Sikhs from outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

The fact that the majority of our Panj Pyare were non-Punjabi illustrates this perfectly.

Given that the Sikh Qaum has a fertility rate that, if not adjusted, will mean a decrease in our population going forwards, we need to take action to advance our Panth unitedly now, rather than in the future:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Census-shows-Punjab-may-no-more-be-land-of-opportunities/articleshow/7881081.cms

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/sikhs-urged-to-have-more-children

One thing we need to do arrest population decline is stop abortion clinics that proliferate in East Punjab. Physically.

We simply cannot allow innocent unborn children (overwhelmingly female) to be aborted given that it is against Gurmat.

Also importantly, we need new blood for the Panth from poorer non-Punjabi area's of India as well as sub-Saharan Africa as the two likely main growth area's. Instead of focussing on our minor differences as Sikhs we should work collectively in Unity to bring the message of Sikhi to the 40% in East Punjab currently defined as non-Sikhs. When it comes to new members of the Panth we need to ignore classifications of Amritdhari, Kesdhari or Sehajdhari and work from the initial basis that a person self-identifies with Sikhi. A greater number of true Amritdhari's will inevitably follow in due course when there is a greater population pool to source the best Gursikhs from whether those be white, black, Punjabi or non-Punjabi.

Rather than defining people as non-Sikhs (as the RSS wish us to do as that serves their political interests whilst weakening ours by making our Panth's collective political voice smaller) we need to define as many people as Sikh as possible. That means accepting all those that do matha tek at Gurdwara's as Sikhs full stop. That also means even accepting the followers of all sects historically or even presently hostile to mainstream Sikhi as nevertheless being within the Sikh fold (ie Radha Swami, Nirankari, Namdhari's etc, etc) ... let's deliberately define them as Sikhs for census purposes and utilise the Dera's as a method for strengthening Sikhi via a greater population pool (despite past central governments funding these Dera's to weaken mainstream Sikhi). If we practise true Sikhi as mainstream Sikhs then those under the influence of Dera's should gravitate back to mainstream Sikhi over time via love and parchar. Confrontation is not the answer. Only our opponents benefit from erstwhile Sikhs being defined as non-Sikhs in 2014 and in the future. We see this in the Punjabi Suba issue ... that by defining today's so-called HP's as non-Sikhs after 1947 ... this delivered them on a plate to our opponents who wished them to declare Hindi as their new mother tongue. In so doing we inadvertently cut the connetions of many families with the Gurdwara's and delivered them into our opponents lap leaving the Punjabi speaking state smaller as a result. Obviously the main fault for this lies with our opponents but we cannot unwittingly aid and abet them in their anti-Sikh objectives. Regardless of if people are now commonly thought of as HP's or nowadays converse in Hindi, we need to welcome all those that attend Gurdwara's (whilst being defined by the RSS as HP's) as in fact being Sikhs. Welcoming them within the Panth will only strengthen us and can make Sikhs the biggest collective indigenous Panth in India within a couple of decades if we get our act together. From there on, Sikhi can significantly expand in India and beyond once more people have knowledge of its Truth.

Clashes over Beadbi are deliberately orchestrated by our opponents to divert our attention away from bigger issues affecting the Panth like drugs, illiteracy, infanticide, biraderi and poverty to name a few. Our Shabad Guru is indestructible and eternal regardless of how many saroops our opponents may deliberate burn to draw a reaction from us. For every saroop our opponents burn, let us distribute Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj even more widely to those who have no knowledge of it both inside and outside of Punjab.

The Muslim OP came here to try pimp Islam on to us by stealth.

The best reaction we can give is to collectively aggressively contribute and raise more funds for the relief of our Qaum (and other's) weaker members away from the affects of poverty, illiteracy, addiction, abortion, poor health and biraderi cancer back in Punjab.

Whilst we might not be poor in the Diaspora we certainly need to tackle alcohol addiction in overseas communities as well as divisive biraderi divisions overseas starting by having single, simple but United Sangat Gurdwara's in every local area rather than multiple fancy ones with divided biraderi-based golak-foccussed committees. Anyone visiting a Gurdwara, if only for marriage potentially, can be tomorrow's Amritdhari if we welcome all potential new Panth members to Sikhi with love and parchar rather than can causing more and more to cut any possibility of future links to Sikhi by following the tactics of numerically bigger religions. Sikhi is a different way to the rest!

And next time our opponents accuse us that Sikhi is for Punjabi's only ... please be sure to remind them that Sikhi is a global faith for everyone rather than Punjabi's only as we can clearly that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Punjabi's are not Sikh and even 80% of our original Punj Pyare were non-Punjabi ... so rather than seeing Sikhi as a Punjabi "thing" we have a duty to share it outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

[Jonny101]

Also I like it when mirpuris for example say IM PATHAN but really they are chowhdury or raja or my family used to be sikhs thinking you will convert or something because of this, yeh right...I just say yeh my family used to be muslim as well you can check out my name they came from some central asian country lol

So so common to see them falsely claiming Sikh ancestry. Many of them also falsely claim Pathan ancestry. This is true for tribes such as Sudhans who are Mirpuris who claim to be Pathans. But historically they were Hindu Rajputs that were coerced to convert to Islam during the time of Aurangzeb. It was during Aurangzeb's period that most Mirpuris converted to Islam.

So many North Indians had converted to Islam through intimidation and coercion. In Kashmir there was a Pathan king named Sikandar ButShikin who had passed all limits of cruelty to make Kashmiri Hindus abandon their religion. Today people like Aurangzeb and Sikandar ButShikin are considered heroes by Punjabi and Kashmiri Muslims. This is probably similar to how the Muslim descendents of the Yazidis who were recently forced to convert to Islam will also consider Baghdadi as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikandar_Butshikan

[jkvlondon]

Now that the Muslim troll has thankfully gone let's consider some points that we need to strongly address internally as Sikhs.

Out of the 160 million plus pre-1947 Punjab area ethnic Punjabi population today, it's true that the statistics roughly break down as:

Muslims 62.5%

Christians 2.5%

Hindu's 25%

Sikhs 10%

So if we look at pre-1947 Punjab areas today, as a result of our community's relative financial success our fertility rates are lower and our percentage of the Punjabi population and indeed Indian population are actually declining. East Punjab's high population density is not condusive to large families either. If we include those that speak Hindi and Urdu then we only comprise roughly one in ten of ethnic Punjabi's nowadays. What that should tell us is that Sikhi has no exclusive connection to the Punjabi people per se and that we should broaden our outlook to focus on new Sikhs from outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

The fact that the majority of our Panj Pyare were non-Punjabi illustrates this perfectly.

Given that the Sikh Qaum has a fertility rate that, if not adjusted, will mean a decrease in our population going forwards, we need to take action to advance our Panth unitedly now, rather than in the future:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Census-shows-Punjab-may-no-more-be-land-of-opportunities/articleshow/7881081.cms

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/sikhs-urged-to-have-more-children

One thing we need to do arrest population decline is stop abortion clinics that proliferate in East Punjab. Physically.

We simply cannot allow innocent unborn children (overwhelmingly female) to be aborted given that it is against Gurmat.

Also importantly, we need new blood for the Panth from poorer non-Punjabi area's of India as well as sub-Saharan Africa as the two likely main growth area's. Instead of focussing on our minor differences as Sikhs we should work collectively in Unity to bring the message of Sikhi to the 40% in East Punjab currently defined as non-Sikhs. When it comes to new members of the Panth we need to ignore classifications of Amritdhari, Kesdhari or Sehajdhari and work from the initial basis that a person self-identifies with Sikhi. A greater number of true Amritdhari's will inevitably follow in due course when there is a greater population pool to source the best Gursikhs from whether those be white, black, Punjabi or non-Punjabi.

Rather than defining people as non-Sikhs (as the RSS wish us to do as that serves their political interests whilst weakening ours by making our Panth's collective political voice smaller) we need to define as many people as Sikh as possible. That means accepting all those that do matha tek at Gurdwara's as Sikhs full stop. That also means even accepting the followers of all sects historically or even presently hostile to mainstream Sikhi as nevertheless being within the Sikh fold (ie Radha Swami, Nirankari, Namdhari's etc, etc) ... let's deliberately define them as Sikhs for census purposes and utilise the Dera's as a method for strengthening Sikhi via a greater population pool (despite past central governments funding these Dera's to weaken mainstream Sikhi). If we practise true Sikhi as mainstream Sikhs then those under the influence of Dera's should gravitate back to mainstream Sikhi over time via love and parchar. Confrontation is not the answer. Only our opponents benefit from erstwhile Sikhs being defined as non-Sikhs in 2014 and in the future. We see this in the Punjabi Suba issue ... that by defining today's so-called HP's as non-Sikhs after 1947 ... this delivered them on a plate to our opponents who wished them to declare Hindi as their new mother tongue. In so doing we inadvertently cut the connetions of many families with the Gurdwara's and delivered them into our opponents lap leaving the Punjabi speaking state smaller as a result. Obviously the main fault for this lies with our opponents but we cannot unwittingly aid and abet them in their anti-Sikh objectives. Regardless of if people are now commonly thought of as HP's or nowadays converse in Hindi, we need to welcome all those that attend Gurdwara's (whilst being defined by the RSS as HP's) as in fact being Sikhs. Welcoming them within the Panth will only strengthen us and can make Sikhs the biggest collective indigenous Panth in India within a couple of decades if we get our act together. From there on, Sikhi can significantly expand in India and beyond once more people have knowledge of its Truth.

Clashes over Beadbi are deliberately orchestrated by our opponents to divert our attention away from bigger issues affecting the Panth like drugs, illiteracy, infanticide, biraderi and poverty to name a few. Our Shabad Guru is indestructible and eternal regardless of how many saroops our opponents may deliberate burn to draw a reaction from us. For every saroop our opponents burn, let us distribute Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj even more widely to those who have no knowledge of it both inside and outside of Punjab.

The Muslim OP came here to try pimp Islam on to us by stealth.

The best reaction we can give is to collectively aggressively contribute and raise more funds for the relief of our Qaum (and other's) weaker members away from the affects of poverty, illiteracy, addiction, abortion, poor health and biraderi cancer back in Punjab.

Whilst we might not be poor in the Diaspora we certainly need to tackle alcohol addiction in overseas communities as well as divisive biraderi divisions overseas starting by having single, simple but United Sangat Gurdwara's in every local area rather than multiple fancy ones with divided biraderi-based golak-foccussed committees. Anyone visiting a Gurdwara, if only for marriage potentially, can be tomorrow's Amritdhari if we welcome all potential new Panth members to Sikhi with love and parchar rather than can causing more and more to cut any possibility of future links to Sikhi by following the tactics of numerically bigger religions. Sikhi is a different way to the rest!

And next time our opponents accuse us that Sikhi is for Punjabi's only ... please be sure to remind them that Sikhi is a global faith for everyone rather than Punjabi's only as we can clearly that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Punjabi's are not Sikh and even 80% of our original Punj Pyare were non-Punjabi ... so rather than seeing Sikhi as a Punjabi "thing" we have a duty to share it outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

sorry I cannot accept people who do not accept Guru Granth Sahibji as their Guru as my brother or sister, it is against maryada of amrit ...i am not that desperate for numbers to disrespect my Guru EVER...

yes we should bring up our females as poora gursikhs fully battle ready, fully amritdhari and demanding Singhs of same quality ...as the demographics are in their favour at the moment lets change the dialogue no daaj will be paid , but the guy has to pay the bride price in terms of proper Gursikh jiwan observed by sangat otherwise bye bye ...

[Jonny101]

Now that the Muslim troll has thankfully gone let's consider some points that we need to strongly address internally as Sikhs.

Out of the 160 million plus pre-1947 Punjab area ethnic Punjabi population today, it's true that the statistics roughly break down as:

Muslims 62.5%

Christians 2.5%

Hindu's 25%

Sikhs 10%

So if we look at pre-1947 Punjab areas today, as a result of our community's relative financial success our fertility rates are lower and our percentage of the Punjabi population and indeed Indian population are actually declining. East Punjab's high population density is not condusive to large families either. If we include those that speak Hindi and Urdu then we only comprise roughly one in ten of ethnic Punjabi's nowadays. What that should tell us is that Sikhi has no exclusive connection to the Punjabi people per se and that we should broaden our outlook to focus on new Sikhs from outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

10% is inaccurate. While the Punjabi Muslims had all moved from east Punjab(which included Himachal, Haryana, Chandigarh) to the territory of west Punjab. Punjabi Muslims had no other place to move into while that same is not true for the Hindus and Sikhs of west Punjab. A great many Hindus and Sikhs from west Punjab had moved to other states in addition to east Punjab. Today you have millions of Sikhs living in Rajasthan, Delhi, UP and all over India. It is said that the total Sikh population today is around 25-30 million then out of a total of 165 million, the Sikhs are about 15%-18%. But even 165 million is an under estimate since the millions of Hindus from what was then Punjab of 1947 have also moved on to other states and are not factored into this calculation. If all things are factored in, then the Sikhs are still around 13 to 14% of the total population of what was the people of greater Punjab of 1947

[Guest Jacfsing2]

Now that the Muslim troll has thankfully gone let's consider some points that we need to strongly address internally as Sikhs.

Out of the 160 million plus pre-1947 Punjab area ethnic Punjabi population today, it's true that the statistics roughly break down as:

Muslims 62.5%

Christians 2.5%

Hindu's 25%

Sikhs 10%

So if we look at pre-1947 Punjab areas today, as a result of our community's relative financial success our fertility rates are lower and our percentage of the Punjabi population and indeed Indian population are actually declining. East Punjab's high population density is not condusive to large families either. If we include those that speak Hindi and Urdu then we only comprise roughly one in ten of ethnic Punjabi's nowadays. What that should tell us is that Sikhi has no exclusive connection to the Punjabi people per se and that we should broaden our outlook to focus on new Sikhs from outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

The fact that the majority of our Panj Pyare were non-Punjabi illustrates this perfectly.

Given that the Sikh Qaum has a fertility rate that, if not adjusted, will mean a decrease in our population going forwards, we need to take action to advance our Panth unitedly now, rather than in the future:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Census-shows-Punjab-may-no-more-be-land-of-opportunities/articleshow/7881081.cms

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/sikhs-urged-to-have-more-children

One thing we need to do arrest population decline is stop abortion clinics that proliferate in East Punjab. Physically.

We simply cannot allow innocent unborn children (overwhelmingly female) to be aborted given that it is against Gurmat.

Also importantly, we need new blood for the Panth from poorer non-Punjabi area's of India as well as sub-Saharan Africa as the two likely main growth area's. Instead of focussing on our minor differences as Sikhs we should work collectively in Unity to bring the message of Sikhi to the 40% in East Punjab currently defined as non-Sikhs. When it comes to new members of the Panth we need to ignore classifications of Amritdhari, Kesdhari or Sehajdhari and work from the initial basis that a person self-identifies with Sikhi. A greater number of true Amritdhari's will inevitably follow in due course when there is a greater population pool to source the best Gursikhs from whether those be white, black, Punjabi or non-Punjabi.

Rather than defining people as non-Sikhs (as the RSS wish us to do as that serves their political interests whilst weakening ours by making our Panth's collective political voice smaller) we need to define as many people as Sikh as possible. That means accepting all those that do matha tek at Gurdwara's as Sikhs full stop. That also means even accepting the followers of all sects historically or even presently hostile to mainstream Sikhi as nevertheless being within the Sikh fold (ie Radha Swami, Nirankari, Namdhari's etc, etc) ... let's deliberately define them as Sikhs for census purposes and utilise the Dera's as a method for strengthening Sikhi via a greater population pool (despite past central governments funding these Dera's to weaken mainstream Sikhi). If we practise true Sikhi as mainstream Sikhs then those under the influence of Dera's should gravitate back to mainstream Sikhi over time via love and parchar. Confrontation is not the answer. Only our opponents benefit from erstwhile Sikhs being defined as non-Sikhs in 2014 and in the future. We see this in the Punjabi Suba issue ... that by defining today's so-called HP's as non-Sikhs after 1947 ... this delivered them on a plate to our opponents who wished them to declare Hindi as their new mother tongue. In so doing we inadvertently cut the connetions of many families with the Gurdwara's and delivered them into our opponents lap leaving the Punjabi speaking state smaller as a result. Obviously the main fault for this lies with our opponents but we cannot unwittingly aid and abet them in their anti-Sikh objectives. Regardless of if people are now commonly thought of as HP's or nowadays converse in Hindi, we need to welcome all those that attend Gurdwara's (whilst being defined by the RSS as HP's) as in fact being Sikhs. Welcoming them within the Panth will only strengthen us and can make Sikhs the biggest collective indigenous Panth in India within a couple of decades if we get our act together. From there on, Sikhi can significantly expand in India and beyond once more people have knowledge of its Truth.

Clashes over Beadbi are deliberately orchestrated by our opponents to divert our attention away from bigger issues affecting the Panth like drugs, illiteracy, infanticide, biraderi and poverty to name a few. Our Shabad Guru is indestructible and eternal regardless of how many saroops our opponents may deliberate burn to draw a reaction from us. For every saroop our opponents burn, let us distribute Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj even more widely to those who have no knowledge of it both inside and outside of Punjab.

The Muslim OP came here to try pimp Islam on to us by stealth.

The best reaction we can give is to collectively aggressively contribute and raise more funds for the relief of our Qaum (and other's) weaker members away from the affects of poverty, illiteracy, addiction, abortion, poor health and biraderi cancer back in Punjab.

Whilst we might not be poor in the Diaspora we certainly need to tackle alcohol addiction in overseas communities as well as divisive biraderi divisions overseas starting by having single, simple but United Sangat Gurdwara's in every local area rather than multiple fancy ones with divided biraderi-based golak-foccussed committees. Anyone visiting a Gurdwara, if only for marriage potentially, can be tomorrow's Amritdhari if we welcome all potential new Panth members to Sikhi with love and parchar rather than can causing more and more to cut any possibility of future links to Sikhi by following the tactics of numerically bigger religions. Sikhi is a different way to the rest!

And next time our opponents accuse us that Sikhi is for Punjabi's only ... please be sure to remind them that Sikhi is a global faith for everyone rather than Punjabi's only as we can clearly that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Punjabi's are not Sikh and even 80% of our original Punj Pyare were non-Punjabi ... so rather than seeing Sikhi as a Punjabi "thing" we have a duty to share it outside of Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

Does Bhai Fauja Singh's shaheedi mean nothing to you? Does insulting Guru Sahib mean nothing to you? Are you soo desperate for numbers that you'd allow groups doing beadbi of Guru Mahraj and still say,"they won't do anything, I'm a Sikh(Punjabi), let me go live a bad life" These are excommunicated groups and should stay excommunicated until they collapse.

[StarStriker]

Also I like it when mirpuris for example say IM PATHAN but really they are chowhdury or raja or my family used to be sikhs thinking you will convert or something because of this, yeh right...I just say yeh my family used to be muslim as well you can check out my name they came from some central asian country lol

Ive also sed that too, bowt my ancestors, altho mine were muslims i believe, as the tribe that i come from, in panjab, they r majority muslim.

[DTF]

sorry I cannot accept people who do not accept Guru Granth Sahibji as their Guru as my brother or sister, it is against maryada of amrit ...i am not that desperate for numbers to disrespect my Guru EVER...

yes we should bring up our females as poora gursikhs fully battle ready, fully amritdhari and demanding Singhs of same quality ...as the demographics are in their favour at the moment lets change the dialogue no daaj will be paid , but the guy has to pay the bride price in terms of proper Gursikh jiwan observed by sangat otherwise bye bye ...

JKV Ji, that is exactly the point sister. When others not currently considered mainstream Sikhs do matha tek and bow down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, they are accepting Guru Sahib as Maharaj. By welcoming them within the Panth we have a greater ability to curb anti-Gurmat beliefs that the said adherents may or may not hold.

Agree with you that Sikhi is the only true faith which does not condone sexual discrimination and stresses that male and female are equal in spiritual terms before God and only differentiated by their actions rather than their worldy gender.

10% is inaccurate. While the Punjabi Muslims had all moved from east Punjab(which included Himachal, Haryana, Chandigarh) to the territory of west Punjab. Punjabi Muslims had no other place to move into while that same is not true for the Hindus and Sikhs of west Punjab. A great many Hindus and Sikhs from west Punjab had moved to other states in addition to east Punjab. Today you have millions of Sikhs living in Rajasthan, Delhi, UP and all over India. It is said that the total Sikh population today is around 25-30 million then out of a total of 165 million, the Sikhs are about 15%-18%. But even 165 million is an under estimate since the millions of Hindus from what was then Punjab of 1947 have also moved on to other states and are not factored into this calculation. If all things are factored in, then the Sikhs are still around 13 to 14% of the total population of what was the people of greater Punjab of 1947

You're absolutely right Jonny Paji that my crude calculation of taking Sikhs as 60% of east Punjab plus adding another million Sikhs for Haryana (thus excluding other non-Punjab and non-Haryana Sikhs) to get to just under 11% is a slight undercount of our percentage but either way we slice it, when even factoring for the global Punjabi diaspora, we still only get to 13% at best by my crude calculations which still means that we as Punjabi Sikhs have not succeeded in doing any kind of meaningful parchar to the 87% non-Sikh majority amongst ethnic Punjabi's in the last 70 years. Given that the hatred for Sikhs from the non-Sikh majority of ethnic Punjabi's even extends to their own mother tongue, our response should be to focus more resources towards parchar and social upliftment in poorer non-Punjabi parts of the world (once we have devoted sufficient resources to our own ... as if we ourselves are weak ... we can hardly be in a position to uplift others). Whereas in the years at the start of the 1800's barely 5% of Punjabi speakers were Sikhs, 200 odd years later due to our opponents blind hatred for Sikhi as the Truth, the situation has turned full circle and we find today that 95% of those that actively still speak Punjabi nowadays are Sikh (despite us having been a minority in even Majha, Malwa & Doaba back in 1947).

Does Bhai Fauja Singh's shaheedi mean nothing to you? Does insulting Guru Sahib mean nothing to you? Are you soo desperate for numbers that you'd allow groups doing beadbi of Guru Mahraj and still say,"they won't do anything, I'm a Sikh(Punjabi), let me go live a bad life" These are excommunicated groups and should stay excommunicated until they collapse.

Paji i understand and respect your viewpoint but we have to look at what will advance the Panth's interests furthest going forward in 2015 and beyond. Gurbachana deserved death as we all know for cruelly making our Singhs shaheed upon Indira Gandhi's orders in 1978. However, we need to address the new reality as it exists today. Taking the case of the Nirankari's based primarily in Delhi. Hardev Singh, their current leader, does not pronounce himself as a dehdhari Guru for the Panth but by referencing Gurbani has drawn lakhs of adherents mostly from UP. I would suggest that 31years after Bhai Fauja Singh's shaheedi they would want us to gather in those lakhs of Nirankari non-Punjabi adherents to mainstream Sikhi. That can only be achieved via more interaction with those same Dera followers so that they see that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the root source for all that they find spiritually attractive about their Dera. (In America, we can actually see how mainstream Islam achieved this type of success incorporating most followers of the NOI cult within their ranks in the last 40 years if you study the comparison). The Congress Genocide of Sikhs killed 1% of the population of our Qaum during the 80's and 90's. The 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs was 20 times worse in percentage terms as they killed 20% of our Qaum's population back then. 31years after that tragic Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in 1947, we took our eye off the bigger picture by some seeing Nirankari's (as the Congress stooges they were at the time) as our biggest enemies at the time (whilst forgetting the decimation that Pakistan had inflicted upon us 31years earlier). If we repeat the same mistake 31years after 1984 by viewing Noormehlia's as our biggest opponents whilst drugs, illiteracy, poverty, biraderi discrimination and female infanticide are bigger enemies to defeat right now in front of us then it would be a big shame. Our Shabad Guru is indestructible and the very reason our enemies deliberately do agan bhet of Guru Sahib every so often is to distract us from the bigger priorities that we urgently need to tackle unitedly via money, manpower and collective seva. In 1978, Gurbachana's procession was a distraction from the temporary cessation of Indira Gandhi's dictatorship. Our subsequent entanglement with Gurbachana and his goons was a political and tactical defeat for our Qaum as it set in chain a motion of events that assisted Indira Gandhi in deliberately desecrating Harmandir Sahib and the Genocide of so many thousands of innocent Sikhs for purely her own selfish political gain.

Ive also sed that too, bowt my ancestors, altho mine were muslims i believe, as the tribe that i come from, in panjab, they r majority muslim.

Paji, all of the main ethnic Punjabi communities are majority Muslim ... from Brahmins (known as Butts in Pakistan like their current Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif) ... to Jatts (like the first Prime Minister of Pakistan Liaquat Ali Khan) who also happen to be the majority of Mirpuri's ... to Khatri's and Arora's (known in Pakistan as Sheikhs) and Saini's and Kamboh's (known in Pakistan as Arain Kambohs) and also Punjabi Tarkhans are mostly Muslims. Most people are aware that Rajputs and Gujjars are also overwhelmingly Muslims in Punjab. The only major Punjabi community that is not majority Muslim amongst ethnic Punjabi's are the Chura community of Pakistan who are overwhelmingly Christians.

Interestingly, one of the reasons that Punjabi Muslims despise the Chura community so much is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj said "Rangrete Guru ke bete" as the Sikh Panth is the community that accepts Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji's bravery has never had many equals in history. It's a shame our parchar is so lacking currently that we cannot get this message out more clearly to those who turn to Christianity or who now declare themselves as Balmiki's (with Badal and RSS assistance may I add). But the fact that even Jatts, Thakhans, Julahe, Brahmins, Saini's, Khatri's, Aroreh, etc, etc are all majority Muslim communities amongst ethnic Punjabi's should act as a spur to us Sikhs to unite all Gurdwara's in each village in Punjab or town in the West into United Sangat Gurdwara's named solely as the Gurdwara for town X rather than named after any religious figures who certain committees have ignorantly tried to appropriate from the single indivisible united saanjha Sikh Panth.

[jkvlondon]

DTF

sorry but panth di dokhi is NOT to be trusted on any counts and I will not be a Namak Haram and embrace them you choose your path but that is not Sikhi

[DTF]

DTF

sorry but panth di dokhi is NOT to be trusted on any counts and I will not be a Namak Haram and embrace them you choose your path but that is not Sikhi

Of course not JKV Ji. We all know that the Dhillon family who control the Radha Swami financial empire and Sidhu the rapist who operates the Dera Sirsa franchise is an evil cheat and on a private level we can admit that Gurbachana's death was good riddance to a dusht who killed innocent Shaheeds BUT we have to accept the reality that the millions of followers these Dera's all command nowadays are not all bad people, the innocent followers are not all against us and we have to navigate the best course of action to re-integrate them back within mainstream Sikhi over time. Decrying the innocent followers as non-Sikhs and alienating them further away from Sikhi will achieve nothing beneficial for the Sikh Panth. But it will help our opponents get closer to the day that not even 50% of east Punjab declares itself as Sikh. As for all those that attend Gurdwara's, regardless of their supposed family backgrounds, I do regard them as brother and sister Sikhs as I find it suicidal for us as a globally small community to be terming millions of those who attend Gurdwara's as non-Sikhs. No other religion does this and our opponents rejoice at our short-sightedness. When we don't accept good people within our ranks, we essentially push them into the arms of our enemies. Any time someone without the name Singh or Kaur steps foot into a Gurdwara we should build upon increasing their sense of belonging to the Panth rather than alienating people away from Sikhi.