Shaheedi - Are there times when it is not worth it?

[Ranjeet01]

I am starting this particular topic and it might ruffle some feathers, it might make people angry and I apologise if anyone takes offence.

Guru Teg Bahadhur Ji , our 9th Guru was shaheeded in order to save Kashmiri Pandits.

What was great about our Guru was that he sacrificed his life to prevent these people (of another religion) being forcibly converted to Islam.

Now these people approached our Guru for his protection.

Yet it is from these people that the likes of Allama Iqbal  (national poet of Pakistan, whose own grandfather was Kashmiri hindu and apparently came up with the idea of Pakistan) and Nehru (another Kashmiri Pandit) helped to partition Punjab and displace our people from their homeland.

Nehru also spawned Indira Gandhi  who caused the pogroms of our people.

These Kashmiri Pandits are no end of trouble for us Sikhs as they caused the sacrifice of our Guru and our people.

Yet on the other hand the descendents of these people were booted out of the Kashmir Valley by the muslim population in 1989.

Why did our Guru have to give up his life for these people, surely Shaheedi was not worthwhile in this instance?

[jkvlondon]

3 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I am starting this particular topic and it might ruffle some feathers, it might make people angry and I apologise if anyone takes offence.

Guru Teg Bahadhur Ji , our 9th Guru was shaheeded in order to save Kashmiri Pandits.

What was great about our Guru was that he sacrificed his life to prevent these people (of another religion) being forcibly converted to Islam.

Now these people approached our Guru for his protection.

Yet it is from these people that the likes of Allama Iqbal  (national poet of Pakistan, whose own grandfather was Kashmiri hindu and apparently came up with the idea of Pakistan) and Nehru (another Kashmiri Pandit) helped to partition Punjab and displace our people from their homeland.

Nehru also spawned Indira Gandhi  who caused the pogroms of our people.

These Kashmiri Pandits are no end of trouble for us Sikhs as they caused the sacrifice of our Guru and our people.

Yet on the other hand the descendents of these people were booted out of the Kashmir Valley by the muslim population in 1989.

Why did our Guru have to give up his life for these people, surely Shaheedi was not worthwhile in this instance?

Nehru and Indira are blood descendants of Gangu Brahmin so theirs is a deep hatred for sikhs due to their notorious paternal ancestor. Guru Teg Bahadur ji did not save the Hindus but Dharam's freedom it was a much bigger idea, plus he was watering sikhi di booti with his blood giving the first installment of dhiksa for  Guru Gobind Rai ji's amrit.

The Pandits hate sikhs because they know that Guru Nanak Dev ji's coming as predicted in their veds meant the end of the gravy train they had been riding for so many centuries . If the Khalsa  becomes India wide a sikh tidal wave will finish off the caste system for good . This is the main reason we have to be smart and prepared to be self-reliant .

 

[scali]

Guru sahib gave shaheedi for the principal of free will. The greatest gift given to humans by GOD. No one has a right to impose their will on another. The world is people's own creation hence we see what's around us. Could GOD not make a perfect world if it chooses Yes - but its motive is to allow us to create via free will what we choose. It is free from condemnation and judgement. It does not care what we create what we create we experience.

[genie]

14 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I am starting this particular topic and it might ruffle some feathers, it might make people angry and I apologise if anyone takes offence.

Guru Teg Bahadhur Ji , our 9th Guru was shaheeded in order to save Kashmiri Pandits.

What was great about our Guru was that he sacrificed his life to prevent these people (of another religion) being forcibly converted to Islam.

Now these people approached our Guru for his protection.

Yet it is from these people that the likes of Allama Iqbal  (national poet of Pakistan, whose own grandfather was Kashmiri hindu and apparently came up with the idea of Pakistan) and Nehru (another Kashmiri Pandit) helped to partition Punjab and displace our people from their homeland.

Nehru also spawned Indira Gandhi  who caused the pogroms of our people.

These Kashmiri Pandits are no end of trouble for us Sikhs as they caused the sacrifice of our Guru and our people.

Yet on the other hand the descendents of these people were booted out of the Kashmir Valley by the muslim population in 1989.

Why did our Guru have to give up his life for these people, surely Shaheedi was not worthwhile in this instance?

Guru's were enlightened beings and messengers of God. They did what they had to do at the time to set Sikhs and rest of humanity an example as a gold standard of what to strive for.

However as ordinary Sikhs who have many flaws we are not anywhere near at the spiritual levels of the Guru's so then we can understand that any shaheedi that is given should be for self preservation of fellow Sikhs and Sikh religion only. As history and ground realities have shown as no matter how great we are as a community, non-sikhs especially with those we helped so much and are in our debt will always back-stab us and treat us with contempt eventually in very short years after helping them. (ie the british establishment fighting on foreign soil in 2 world wars losing 100,000 turbaned sikh soldiers lives for west's freedom, helping Indian's fighting in azad hind and other armed forces for its freedom pre-1947, Guru teg bahadhur sacrifice for kashmiri hindu pundit community, Sikh armed raiders on horse back looting ahmed shah abdalis booty caravans and releasing hindu girls raped and kidnapped by his army,etc,etc)

Furthermore for all the shaheediya and sacrifices our people have made for others. We need to ask the question....has any community helped us ever in our struggles? I cant think of one. Individuals of communities may have but no community or nation in general has ever come out openly to do something really helpful or great for our community. And in present times they have stood slient and looked the other way over last 30years since the anti-sikh genocide in 1984.

[sikhni777]

Singhs were created after Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa. So for who was Guru Arjun Dev jis saheedhi?

[scali]

Guru Arjan Dev ji shaeedhi demonstarates the ultimate Acceptance. The cycle of Addiction,Preference and Acceptance. Most people stuck in the addiction of a certain outcome in their selfish interests or they spiral down into unhappiness, depression..... As one become more aware he or she may prefer one outcome over the other. but is ok if other happens. But only a Master knows the key to perfection of GOD's plan (Bhana) lies in Acceptance of what's showing up and will utter "Tera keeya meetha lage". 

[StarStriker]

1 hour ago, sikhni777 said:

Singhs were created after Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa. So for who was Guru Arjun Dev jis saheedhi?

Well guru hargobind sahib ji, created the 'akal sena', the 1st sikh army, and militarised the sikh panth and asked for youth/weapons/horses, and set up on making the akal takht. Remember ppl laughed in guru jis face, wen as a kid, they succeeded guru arjan dev ji and proclaimed that sikhs will become miltant, and will take badla from now on.So i suppose guru jis shaheedi turned sikhs from pacifists to jawaab dehn waleh!

[Not2Cool2Argue]

Sikhi is bigger than sikhs. Its about God. From the actions and life of a Sikh, we should see God and that God is good and kind. Most people are turning athiest these days and they hate religion. They think religions have caused the most hate, divisions, wars, death, and suppression of human rights. And this seems true if u look at other religions, Christians had so many wars, between christians sometimes like the 30 years war, protestant against catholic, they had Spanish Inquisition, burning of witches and heretics at stake. All because of religion. No need to provide examples of Islam. And Jewish ppl only see Jews as the chosen ppl and so they dont give rights to non Jewish ppl. In all these religions, woman dont have equal rights and if u dont believe in it, you dont have rights in those religions. 

Only Sikhi is different. It protected the weak and the rights of the nonSikhs as well. Alot of ppl, including sikhs, like bhai jagraj singh became sikhs because of Guru Teg Bahadurs shaheedi. Their shaheedi is a light that shines through the centuries and still guides and inspires ppl. If we fall from sikh principles to save our race, our ppl, our life, that may be only saved once. And centuries later ppl will still raise their fingers and point out the stain of cowardice. And problems will come again, and if each time we give up sikhi, wat will be left?

 

Lets say Guruji did not save the hindus. Most north india will be muslim. Then now we would be living in either pakistan where our problems would include Taliban, no rights etc. Or we would have to relocate to South India and all of North India would go to muslims in partition.And u think 1984 was bad? It was nothing compared to our past. Also it resulted in a lot of good. Sikhs were able to get asylum cases and now live in almost every country in the world. Some moved not because of asylum but because living conditions in panjab deteriorated after 84. Now sikhi has more of a chance to spread globally, as sikhs know more languages and can connect to more ppl.  Also it got sikhs out of panjab, before they were consumed with poverty, cancer, and drugs like panjabis now. Also 1984 brought a  resurgence in Sikhi, alot of ppl like Ravi Singh of Khalsa Aid became sikhs cuz of 84.  U know sikhs was gonna become all hippie, all religions are the same, type  if not 84. It also united sikhs. So in a way its actually true, the more blood that is spilled of Sikhs, the more we grow! Stay in chardi Kala. Even in life, those ppl that grow up in poverty and hard life are stronger, resilient, and more successful than the spoiled kids. Sikhi flourishes and becomes stronger after every Holocaust. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

and Isreal is a religious country that has committed attrocities. Upto this point, i dont think we could say Jewish ppl had done any attrocities, but when they began to see their goal to preserve their race and their country, atrocities were done. Their end goal wasnt religion but country and race, things nonreligious evil ppl fought for like Hitler and Stalin and Mao.so their actions became less religious. And this is what Sikhi must avoid as well. In 1984, some kharkoos had great sense of morals, honor, Sikhi, and dignity. They would not harm the innocents. But some kharkoos got angry when some ppl just spoke badly about Sikhs and blew up a whole bazaar filled with innocent women and children. And cynthia mehmoud documented this in her book Khalistan, freedom fighters for nation. And i was ashamed to read of this. These acts under name of Khalistaan? And it totally made the question they asked valid, "how do we know when u get khalistan, u wont become another isreal? We all thought Jews suffered so much, they would never inflict it upon others. But they did. Like u they talked about ending oppression, freedom, treating everyone fairly.but how will u do it?" the jews did it because survival of their race and country meant more than their religion. God saved their race even after the biggest Holocaust, yet they were willing to forget that God and his religion, for a country. Now everyone hates that country.

So never do antiSikhi or wrong things just to keep our ppl safe.  In the old days, even in 84, sikhs loved to give shaheedis. Any reason would do. In fact sikhs would go do ishnaan at harmander sahib when it was under Mughal lockdown, knowing it would end in death. They would do it for a challenge. Look at Bota Singh Garja Singh shaheedi, lets show these ppl sikhs exist n do shaheedi. There were thousands of sikhs before u n thousands will be after. But only the shaheeds remain forever, only their names r known. 

So similarly,dont think that wat the Gurus did or Sikhs do for humanity and nonSikhs and for God's Hukam ( like 5th guru) is a waste. That will be more beneficial to sikhi than wat we do simply to save our lives and our raaj. Their shaheedis will inspire thousands more to the cause than those killed.

[Ranjeet01]

5 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

So you are suggesting that the guru made a mistake? 

I do not think so.

In my selfish manmukhful ways, I could not do what our Guruji  did.

Like the posters have said before, Guru ji sees the bigger picture, one that I myself am very shortsighted on.

Maybe this is something I need to reflect on.

If you see how Maharaj's hukam and universal law of karma at work, you could say that with Guru Teg Bahadur's Shaheedi and the example he set has set a precedence. He did it for the sake of dharma.

He gave the opportunity to Kashmiri Pandits to improve their situation, to fight back, to join with the Sikhs which they did not.

Did they do this, no they didn't. They carried on doing what these people keep on doing which act cowardly, make themselves victims , betray people who help them when they get a bit of power and then lose everything and become refugees.

There's a lesson in there for us. The Pandits probably deserve everything they get because they brought it on themselves.They have reaped what they have sown.

I think this making me evaluate the concept of Shaheedi ,  in what context it needs to be used and for what purpose and for what you are trying to achieve.

I think also from Guru Teg Bahadhur, we can learn that if you sacrifice your life to help with the bigger picture, do not expect that it would be appreciated.

It needs a lot more reflecting from me.