So I took a Ethnicity DNA Test...

[MrDoaba]

4 hours ago, TejS said:

I think if you want to learn Farsi on your own, that's great because learning another language is always fine and all. But what need do we have of Farsi, what need does it fulfill for our community? The Persians don't feel any affinity towards Punjabis, they aren't learning Punjabi as a community, so why should we be?

I think our quam has more worrisome things to tackle than reviving Farsi. We need to revive Gurmukhi and Punjabi among our community, because most of our youth does not know it.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I disagree with your comment.

No offence taken brother. It doesn't fulfill any need for our community per say, but as far as intellectual pursuits go, it's probably one of the more productive ones. Then again, that's just my opinion. I understand what you mean about Persians not feeling any affinity for Punjabi but I believe that's because it was Persian which influenced Punjabi, not the other way around, so naturally it would be of more benefit and make more sense for us to have a better understanding of Persian rather than them of Punjabi. I'm not by any means saying we should replace Punjabi and start teaching Persian in Gurdwaras, however, if there was an opportunity to learn an alternative language, Persian would be highly advantageous.

You're right in saying we have more pressing issues to deal with in our quam but at the same time, there's no harm in increasing your gyaan where possible. And of course you would only undertake such a task if you were proficient in Punjabi in the first place, otherwise it's pointless, so apologies - to clarify that comment was not meant for those youth who can't be bothered to learn Punjabi or won't learn it, or for those parents who think the language of whitey is enough.

 

4 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The claim that we are Persian and then we proceed to call it Farsi which from what I understand is the Arab pronounciation for Persian because there is no "P" in the Arab alphabet. 

I was quite well aware of this but thanks anyway.

[Ranjeet01]

24 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

No offence taken brother. It doesn't fulfill any need for our community per say, but as far as intellectual pursuits go, it's probably one of the more productive ones. Then again, that's just my opinion. I understand what you mean about Persians not feeling any affinity for Punjabi but I believe that's because it was Persian which influenced Punjabi, not the other way around, so naturally it would be of more benefit and make more sense for us to have a better understanding of Persian rather than them of Punjabi. I'm not by any means saying we should replace Punjabi and start teaching Persian in Gurdwaras, however, if there was an opportunity to learn an alternative language, Persian would be highly advantageous.

You're right in saying we have more pressing issues to deal with in our quam but at the same time, there's no harm in increasing your gyaan where possible. And of course you would only undertake such a task if you were proficient in Punjabi in the first place, otherwise it's pointless, so apologies - to clarify that comment was not meant for those youth who can't be bothered to learn Punjabi or won't learn it, or for those parents who think the language of whitey is enough.

 

I was quite well aware of this but thanks anyway.

Persian would have influenced Punjabi because Punjab was under the control of Mughals and the likes of Lodhi who were central asians and Afghans where Persian was lingua franca. 

In the same way English is lingua franca for Modern India. 

 

[jkvlondon]

1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Persian would have influenced Punjabi because Punjab was under the control of Mughals and the likes of Lodhi who were central asians and Afghans where Persian was lingua franca. 

In the same way English is lingua franca for Modern India. 

 

before that even because there was trade paths back and forth

[Ranjeet01]

56 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

before that even because there was trade paths back and forth

However, it is always assumed influence flows in one direction.

Ironically in pre-Islamic Persian empire the lingua franca was Aramaic. 

Which is interesting because the scripts of Central Asian Buddhism were in Karaghost script which was a script based on the Aramaic one.

 

[joker]

punjab was part of the persian empire

 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

When sikhs/ panjabis had the chance to spread panjabi/ gurmukhi. We did not. We used  arabic script and persian language during maharaja Ranjit Singhs time. I wonder how sikhs felt about that? Having a different language for religion and different for worldly matters? Tho the 10th guru did try to bridge that  gap. Also most hindus or brahmins called persian malesh bhasa and would try not to use it. Are we becoming the same way with nonPunjabi languages? That it isnt worth it to learn them...i think most sikhs should try to learn sanskrit and farsi as that is where punjabis roots are. 

Also persian is pretty contaminated with arabic. They were trying to revive pre-arabic persian. So no language is safe

[TejS]

13 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

When sikhs/ panjabis had the chance to spread panjabi/ gurmukhi. We did not. We used  arabic script and persian language during maharaja Ranjit Singhs time. I wonder how sikhs felt about that? Having a different language for religion and different for worldly matters? Tho the 10th guru did try to bridge that  gap. Also most hindus or brahmins called persian malesh bhasa and would try not to use it. Are we becoming the same way with nonPunjabi languages? That it isnt worth it to learn them...i think most sikhs should try to learn sanskrit and farsi as that is where punjabis roots are. 

Also persian is pretty contaminated with arabic. They were trying to revive pre-arabic persian. So no language is safe

Well then why not learn Arabic while you're at it as well. I'll argue that Punjabi has more words borrowed from Arabic than Farsi, words like haq, rabb, dunya, sawaal, jawaab, kitaab, quam, insan, mushkil, mubarakan, maut, qanun, ijat, barkat, shukr, mujrim, qursi - these are just a few of the many that I recall.  

What I'm trying to get at it is that just because we have borrowed words from other languages, which is a very commonly seen phenomenon in linguistics and is referred to as loanwords, doesn't mean our language has roots in the language borrowed from. Punjabi and Punjabis have no roots in Farsi or Arabic, so I don't know why some of our own claim that. If anything Punjabi has roots in Sanskrit, but it is an apabrahmsha meaning a corrupted version of Sanskrit - like all present day Indo-Aryan languages.

You're right in saying that when Sikhs had the chance to spread Punjabi/Gurmukhi, we didn't, and that was our biggest mistake. Honestly, we could have been like the Arabs, we could have spread our culture and language to the ends of South Asia, but unfortunately due to poor leaders we failed to do so.

And I reiterate again, learning a new language is a great intellectual pursuit and everyone should take part, but don't suggest that it is imperative that Sikhs learn Farsi or Arabic because we have roots in those languages, that’s simply not true.

[Ranjeet01]

4 minutes ago, TejS said:

Well then why not learn Arabic while you're at it as well. I'll argue that Punjabi has more words borrowed from Arabic than Farsi, words like haq, rabb, dunya, sawaal, jawaab, kitaab, quam, insan, mushkil, mubarakan, maut, qanun, ijat, barkat, shukr, mujrim, qursi - these are just a few of the many that I recall.  

What I'm trying to get at it is that just because we have borrowed words from other languages, which is a very commonly seen phenomenon in linguistics and is referred to as loanwords, doesn't mean our language has roots in the language borrowed from. Punjabi and Punjabis have no roots in Farsi or Arabic, so I don't know why some of our own claim that. If anything Punjabi has roots in Sanskrit, but it is an apabrahmsha meaning a corrupted version of Sanskrit - like all present day Indo-Aryan languages.

You're right in saying that when Sikhs had the chance to spread Punjabi/Gurmukhi, we didn't, and that was our biggest mistake. Honestly, we could have been like the Arabs of India, we could have spread our culture and language to the ends of South Asia, but unfortunately due to poor leaders we failed to do so.

And I reiterate again, learning a new language is a great intellectual pursuit and everyone should take part, but don't suggest that it is imperative that Sikhs learn Farsi or Arabic for that matter because we have roots in those languages.

What is interesting about Persian is that after the Arab conquests in the 7th century, Persians were not able to speak their own mother tongue and were threatened to have their tongues cut out if they did.

You are correct about the amount of arab loanwords in Punjabi. . I think some people think it came from Persian but do not realise that at one time Persian contained one third of it's vocabulary from Arabic but I think that has been reversed some what.

Language is more than loanwords, it is grammar and sentence structure too. 

The reality is the "persian " in the Punjabi language is the result of conquest. 

There seems to be a degree of inferiority complex by some of our people.

[MrDoaba]

On 15/11/2017 at 9:27 PM, TejS said:

If anything Punjabi has roots in Sanskrit

I agree that Punjabi has its roots in Sanskrit and in fact holds more importance over Farsi, but that doesn't mean Farsi should be cast aside. If we cannot agree on the degree of connection between Punjabi and Farsi then a consideration should be made as to where the bar is set for Sikhs in pursuit of it specifically, if not for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, then at least for Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama.

On the topic of academic pursuits, an effort should be made without question to acquire good hand knowledge of Sanskrit.

It's worth mentioning that Vedic Sanskrit and Old Persian actually share some similarities.

 

On 15/11/2017 at 9:47 PM, Ranjeet01 said:

Language is more than loanwords, it is grammar and sentence structure too.

Punjabi, aside from having loanwords, also shares the same word order as Farsi - Subject, Object, Verb. Although this could well be a coincidence, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.

On 15/11/2017 at 9:47 PM, Ranjeet01 said:

There seems to be a degree of inferiority complex by some of our people.

What has given you the impression that anyone in this thread has an inferiority complex? For the majority of us, Punjabi is our maa boli and takes precedence over any other language. The fact that some have a piqued interest in a secondary language which unquestionably has had a significant influence on our mother tongue, whether through conquest or not, does not all of sudden warrant the accusation that one has an inferiority complex. Punjabi has many dialects, some which are more Persianized and some which are more Sanskritized, and even that doesn't determine how Punjabi is spoken - a lot of it is down to personal preference and exposure. I have yet to find someone who speaks Pre-Persian Punjabi or has completely removed any Persian influence. Punjabi during the emergence of Sikhi most likely already had quite a degree of Persian influence, possibly not as much as today, but it still had it nonetheless. It has evolved like most languages and we are talking about the form relative to Punjabis and Sikhs throughout early modern history and current day.

My DNA test didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, and had it come back with higher percentage of Indigenous Indian, the topic of Punjabis/Sikhs learning Farsi would still be under discussion and actually already has been. Likewise, the fact that many Punjabis are more ethnically Persian doesn't mean we are denying our actual heritage - Bharati. While I despise the politics of modern day India, the fact remains that Punjab culturally, geographically, linguistically, socially, and religiously was, is, and will always be a part of Bharat despite any land borders past, present, or future, and any political designations. A fact that many Sikhs find bitter, and a fact which if in agreement with, will also surely cause the term 'inferiority complex' to be bandied about.

Anyway, it's not as if I've been suggesting we all apply for Iranian Citizenship at the earliest possible chance and start stuffing our faces with kabobs now is it.

These days in order to qualify as someone who doesn't have an inferiority complex, you must be a Pro-Khalistani Singh Sabhia who follows Reform 'Sikhism', and believe all Sikhs appeared on earth through immaculate conception and came with their own pure culture and divine language which to this day has been entirely uninfluenced by outside factors.

 ! پیروزی به هندوستان

[JUSTAJATT]

On 11/11/2017 at 5:25 PM, MrDoaba said:

After waiting ages to take a DNA test, I finally got around to it recently. The results were, for the most part, what I expected.

Here's my estimate:

Asia - 85.4%

• South Asian - 79.9%
• West Asian (Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Caucasus, Turkey) - 4.3%
• Central Asian (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazahkstan) - 1.4%

Europe - 14.6%

North and West Europe

• Irish, Scottish, and Welsh - 11.6%
• Scandinavian - 3.0%

Even though these are only estimates, they give an idea of my ethnicity in a broad sense. Nonetheless 14.6% is still considered a fairly large proportion in an estimate, and in all honesty was completely unexpected. My knowledge on DNA and genealogy are probably basic at best but from what I've read such a large percentage of the European could be traced back as early as the 5th or 6th generation before me!

This estimate didn't really tell me much as I would have liked to know so I decided to use GEDmatch to get a more in-depth picture. The results were certainly interesting (Jagsaw Singh if you're still around I'm sure you'll be the most pleased). For the sake of the topic I'll mention that I'm Punjabi Jatt.

This is what I found out:

Baloch - 37.94% (The term Baloch is used here to loosely describe Persian origin)

South Indian - 29.43% (South Indian here refers to indigenous or native Indian)

NE-Euro - 11.70% (oddly the Baltic region)

Caucasian  - 11.30% (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan - again part of the Greater Persian Empire)

SW-Asian - 2.28% (ambiguously referring to Persian, Caucasian, and Arabian)

Mediterranean - 2.25% (most likely Greek, Cypriot, Turkish)

The rest is negligible.

You are also given an approximation how closely you are linked and compare to the individual populations of the sampling done by the genealogists, here are the top ten from highest to lowest:

1) Punjabi-Jatt-Sikh
2) Punjabi-Jatt-Muslim
3) Punjabi-Khatri
4) Pushtikar-Brahmin
5) Kashmiri-Pandit
6) Punjabi
7) Kashmiri
8) Punjabi-Brahmin
9) Rajasthani-Brahmin
10) Singapore-Indian

 

What do you think? I was surprised at some of the detail it went into and some of it was actually expected - I have always explained to people how we very likely had Persian and possibly some European ancestors. Although I probably won't, personally I would love to lay claim to my Persian heritage!

Has anybody here taken a test?

What labels, if any, do I use now...Persian Jatt 

I think the moral here is we shouldn't be so narrow-minded.

 

well done.

I had one done some time ago and so did a good friend of mine. I needed it at the time because i was having an identity crisis that was mostly due to my non-punjjabi/non-brown surroundings   >>>It 's when i became proud of my ancestry origins and realised that jatts weren a RACE of people and not really a cast>as most sikhs think.

Recommend you have a good read read of these books below........

History of the Jats by by Kalika Ranjan Qanungo

Ancestral Roots of the Jats: DNA Revelations...by David G Mahal

also check the link  http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/17669/8/08_chapter 1.pdf

You should get a better understanding about the general and distinct physiques and features of jat race. Surprisingly you should learn that jat comes from the word "ajaat" that means "casteless"..