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TejS

What was the initial reason for humans being caught in the cycle of reincarnation

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Why is it that we have been placed in this cycle first of all? Was there a fall from grace similar to the Abrahamic religions? I'm curious to know if this is addressed within Sikhi?

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4 hours ago, TejS said:

Why is it that we have been placed in this cycle first of all? Was there a fall from grace similar to the Abrahamic religions? I'm curious to know if this is addressed within Sikhi?

Khalsa Ji,

There are numerous references in Gurbani, which tell us about falling under the influence of maya.

21st Astpadhi of SriSukhmani, also explains why the creator created the creation...

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Ang 1080...SGGS...

Edited by MokhamSingh
Ang number
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We gave in to temptation somewhere along the line. We have to reap what we sowed...

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The Gurbani quote's above are out of context and therefore invalid.

Sukhmani Sahib say the world and reincarnation is a Maya play created by God only few who realize the road to God is within realize there is no incarnation. Shabad is the vehicle.  Rehat, good character, religions and virtuous actions are the 4 tires.  Nitnem is the accalerator and sins the brake pedal.  The handbrake is being bemukh from Amrit

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Thank you everyone for your answers. I can understand that our goal is to contemplate on escaping this cyclical bondage, however I can't help but know why in the first place?

I did some research, as well as taking into consideration everyone's wonderful answers, and what I found out is that there are conflicting views on reincarnation. The earliest Dharmic text, the Rgveda (written in the Greater Punjab) has no mention of reincarnation, and instead mentions afterlife as passing on to the elements after being "consumed by Agni". The concept of incarnation comes later during the Gangetic Vedic culture (Uttar Pradesh) where the Mahabharata mentions it in explicit detail. 

Based on a few Sanatani journals and answers I read, its mentioned that when the soul is attached to God, it still has freedom, and therefore is an extension of the Creator. However, at times, due to this freedom, some souls contemplate an independence from the Creator, which can only be possible in a material world. And therefore, they get trapped in this moment of contemplation for multiple reincarnations, until they can yank themselves back by meditation (naam jaap or tapas). Now this premise has a few flaws, as to the concept of independence of souls while being a part of God. If they are independent, how exactly are the souls then a part of God? Perhaps, the union with God allows for independence, who knows? Take it for what you will. 

Edited by TejS

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I'm fascinated by the karmic debt theory. The idea that we have to pay off our karams to people  over the course of lifetimes, is an intriguing idea. I also wonder why our memories are wiped before each birth. Well, I kind of suspect it's done so that we can begin with a clean slate each time, so that we aren't unequivocally aware of any mistakes or paaps that we may have committed previously (which would then weigh on our conscience and seriously mess with our heads), but as I mentioned in another thread I believe any serious psychological hangups or problems that plague us in our current lifetime originate from previous experiences, so in that respect the memory wipe works on a basic level as long as we don't get serious about scratching the mental itch, as it were, but the underlying issues don't disappear just because we aren't consciously aware of the true reasons for why we are the way we are. Sometimes it seems to me as if we're almost toyed with. We're kind of on the back-foot from the very beginning. Is too much expected of us?

Edited by MisterrSingh
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2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'm fascinated by the karmic debt theory. The idea that we have to pay off our karams to people  over the course of lifetimes, is an intriguing idea. I also wonder why our memories are wiped before each birth. Well, I kind of suspect it's done so that we can begin with a clean slate each time, so that we aren't unequivocally aware of any mistakes or paaps that we may have committed previously (which would then weigh on our conscience and seriously mess with our heads), but as I mentioned in another thread I believe any serious psychological hangups or problems that plague us in our current lifetime originate from previous experiences, so in that respect the memory wipe works on a basic level as long as we don't get serious about scratching the mental itch, as it were, but the underlying issues don't disappear just because we aren't consciously aware of the true reasons for why we are the way we are. Sometimes it seems to me as if we're almost toyed with. We're kind of on the back-foot from the very beginning. Is too much expected of us?

See with the karmic debt theory, I thought that we all, humanity collectively, made a mistake and thus were subjected to this cycle of lifetimes, however as @Kira wonderfully reminded me, that would only be possible if we were separate from God, which according to Gurbani, we aren't. So I thought the Sanatani concept of distracted souls living in the material world was interesting, however that raises the issue of being a separate entity to God once again.

I just think that there has to be a reason for which we've been subjected to this cycle. And I personally think that if we were aware of that reason or our past mistakes, we would act more fruitfully towards repentance through our lifetimes. 

Edited by TejS
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2 minutes ago, TejS said:

I just think that there has to be a reason for which we've been subjected to this cycle. And I personally think that if we were aware of our past mistakes, we would act more fruitfully towards repentance through our lifetimes. 

For whatever reason, He wants the creation to continue, so if the the creation has to continue, there has to be imperfections in it, for if everyone remembered in this present life for which past mistakes/karmas, he/she  is getting the fruits in this life, one would avoid in doing or repeating them, and there would be a time, that creation would cease to exist.

One thing is clear, we are here sure for our karmas, and He out of His infinite Kirpa, has given us the choice of getting out from this maha bhavsagar, for those who are fed up from the pain and misery of this mayavee creation before He winds up back His play.

And this chance, is given only to human beings, to hold on to  Wahiguru Akal Purukh´s Name through bhakti, and get out from the planes of koor, for once and forever,  to His realm of eternal unchangeable Truth, namely Sach Khand.

Sat Sree Akal.

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2 hours ago, TejS said:

I just think that there has to be a reason for which we've been subjected to this cycle. And I personally think that if we were aware of that reason or our past mistakes, we would act more fruitfully towards repentance through our lifetimes. 

I believe the opposite. Knowing human nature and the way our minds function, I think it's a good thing that we don't have specific recollections of our past deeds, in as much as we won't be tempted to behave cynically in order to "do good" if we were to know the specific details for determining the reasons for erasing those previous misdeeds, and I feel this is a deliberate act on the part of our Creator. In essence, we are currently acting without vested interests on a karmic level. Yes, on some instinctive level most people realise that goodness is preferable to bad, and we somehow feel that if we follow this rule even in the most crudest of forms, we will be closer to God than if our life erred towards the other, darker end of the spectrum.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this: if we were somehow aware of everything from our previous existences -- and therefore aware of what exactly we needed to do in order to pay off those debts -- we wouldn't do good by battling with our conscience and weighing up our choices (which is the way we function currently), but instead all our goodness wouldn't be selfless and would instead be automated; it'd be driven by a desire to do good for the sake of progression, and not because it's something we truly feel to be the correct course of action as a decision and something's that's arrived upon organically through using our budhi. The Creator is absolutely spot-on with how much he's given us non-Brahmgyanis to work with. It's all part of the plan. It is very, very difficult, though.

Edited by MisterrSingh
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3 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

everyone remembered in this present life for which past mistakes/karmas, he/she  is getting the fruits in this life, one would avoid in doing or repeating them, and there would be a time, that creation would cease to exist.

What about if we just focus on this life and try not to make mistakes? 

We see history repeating itself despite seeing or understanding how and why it has repeated itself.. 

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6 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

For whatever reason, He wants the creation to continue, so if the the creation has to continue, there has to be imperfections in it, for if everyone remembered in this present life for which past mistakes/karmas, he/she  is getting the fruits in this life, one would avoid in doing or repeating them, and there would be a time, that creation would cease to exist.

One thing is clear, we are here sure for our karmas, and He out of His infinite Kirpa, has given us the choice of getting out from this maha bhavsagar, for those who are fed up from the pain and misery of this mayavee creation before He winds up back His play.

And this chance, is given only to human beings, to hold on to  Wahiguru Akal Purukh´s Name through bhakti, and get out from the planes of koor, for once and forever,  to His realm of eternal unchangeable Truth, namely Sach Khand.

Sat Sree Akal.

But can't creation exist without a material world? Isn't being in Sach Khand living, existing?

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4 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I believe the opposite. Knowing human nature and the way our minds function, I think it's a good thing that we don't have specific recollections of our past deeds, in as much as we won't be tempted to behave cynically in order to "do good" if we were to know the specific details for determining the reasons for erasing those previous misdeeds, and I feel this is a deliberate act on the part of our Creator. In essence, we are currently acting without vested interests on a karmic level. Yes, on some instinctive level most people realise that goodness is preferable to bad, and we somehow feel that if we follow this rule even in the most crudest of forms, we will be closer to God than if our life erred towards the other, darker end of the spectrum.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this: if we were somehow aware of everything from our previous existences -- and therefore aware of what exactly we needed to do in order to pay off those debts -- we wouldn't do good by battling with our conscience and weighing up our choices (which is the way we function currently), but instead all our goodness wouldn't be selfless and would instead be automated; it'd be driven by a desire to do good for the sake of progression, and not because it's something we truly feel to be the correct course of action as a decision and something's that's arrived upon organically through using our budhi. The Creator is absolutely spot-on with how much he's given us non-Brahmgyanis to work with. It's all part of the plan. It is very, very difficult, though.

Great perspective! I didn't think of it that way to be honest. I overlooked that Waheguru expects us to act genuinely, rather than out of self-interest. Makes sense to me now. Thanks.

Edited by TejS
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