Sikh history of 18th century seems highly depressing and sikhs didn't even get a fair share :'(

[Guest]

6 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

why cynical did it not make you realise just how much those gursikhs loved you that there was nothing they wouldn't do to ensure Guru ji's sikhi reached you? Humans are scumbags no doubt but contrast that with the nature of a Guru inspired soul ... they become nirvair, nirbhau. You have to read the history and sakhian of guru Sahiban also to balance the horror in your mind .

Sikh history is inspiring , but its depressing because there's so much of bloodshed involved. And the fact that I feel a divine justice to sikhs was not meted out 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Were they not just surviving from one day to the next with little thought of anything beyond immediate, local issues? Does that kind of far-sightedness ring true as the kind of sentiment that comes naturally to us to that particular extent? I think it's a slightly romanticised re-telling of the past. 

Its true . However , they could have easily converted to islam which they did not. Which to me indicates they were men , women and children of very strong faith including beyond this world. 

Usually a person would be able to be tortured in those ghastly ways only if one were of strong firm belief that they were going to a better place in hereafter and are creating a jewel in sikh history. 

Pardon me, but your comment comes across as slightly "missionary" type sikh lol

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TejS said:

You misunderstood me. I feel cynical towards collective humanity because the struggles of our Sikh ancestors shows there is no such thing as compassion and love for people different in any way from you. Even our own Sikhs have betrayed us in the past for their personal benefits and short-sightedness. 

Sikh history teaches us hindus and muslims have conspired to bring sikhs down . But in those dark clouds are shining examples of selfless hindu and muslim people who served the guru . 

Hindus like Todar mal and Kauda mal . 

Muslims like Peer budhu shah , Gani khan/Nabi khan ,..

So , unlike what most sikhs would like to believe today , people were good or bad ,not communities.

[Guest]

The more I read sikh history , the more I am convinced that Sikhi is like a phoenix , rising from its own ashes. It is indestructible . The saw and the charkha couldn't finish it . It was all god's play all along to show to the world how great the sikhi of Guru Nanak is.

[Sukhvirk1976]

24 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sikh history is inspiring , but its depressing because there's so much of bloodshed involved. And the fact that I feel a divine justice to sikhs was not meted out 

I find that idea wholly troubling.. You say divine justice.. Surely the divine has and will mete out justice as the divine sees fit? I think you are talking about retribution? 

[MisterrSingh]

2 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Pardon me, but your comment comes across as slightly "missionary" type sikh lol

I can appreciate why you'd say such a thing. I'm, for better or worse, a firm believer of the mystical and divine as it relates to Sikhi, and I always have been of this frame of mind from a very young age, yet after reading up on other groups and races throughout history who've categorically achieved "more" than us in a temporal sense for the long-term benefit and prosperity of their own kind, most - if not all - of these groups managed such feats without a guiding religious doctrine or even a concrete belief in anything beyond the strength of their own actions and convictions. One would think a group backed by the truly divine guiding hand would have something greater to show for their achievements when compared to all the base, man-made philosophies on which the foundations of other cultures and races were established. Yes, the immediate defence would be to suggest, "But there are greater things in God's kingdom than are to be found on Earth," which is baffling considering all the bloodshed, the suffering, and the sacrifices are made here for... what purpose exactly?

[jkvlondon]

2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I can appreciate why you'd say such a thing. I'm, for better or worse, a firm believer of the mystical and divine as it relates to Sikhi, and I always have been of this frame of mind from a very young age, yet after reading up on other groups and races throughout history who've categorically achieved "more" than us in a temporal sense for the long-term benefit and prosperity of their own kind, most - if not all - of these groups managed such feats without a guiding religious doctrine or even a concrete belief in anything beyond the strength of their own actions and convictions. One would think a group backed by the truly divine guiding hand would have something greater to show for their achievements when compared to all the base, man-made philosophies on which the foundations of other cultures and races were established. Yes, the immediate defence would be to suggest, "But there are greater things in God's kingdom than are to be found on Earth," which is baffling considering all the bloodshed, the suffering, and the sacrifices are made here for... what purpose exactly?

 but the temporal gains they have made were on the backs of oppressing and denying the rights of others

[TejS]

14 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I can appreciate why you'd say such a thing. I'm, for better or worse, a firm believer of the mystical and divine as it relates to Sikhi, and I always have been of this frame of mind from a very young age, yet after reading up on other groups and races throughout history who've categorically achieved "more" than us in a temporal sense for the long-term benefit and prosperity of their own kind, most - if not all - of these groups managed such feats without a guiding religious doctrine or even a concrete belief in anything beyond the strength of their own actions and convictions. One would think a group backed by the truly divine guiding hand would have something greater to show for their achievements when compared to all the base, man-made philosophies on which the foundations of other cultures and races were established. Yes, the immediate defence would be to suggest, "But there are greater things in God's kingdom than are to be found on Earth," which is baffling considering all the bloodshed, the suffering, and the sacrifices are made here for... what purpose exactly?

I'm of the same opinion of this. Not a very good position to be in, and that's why I'm trying to get things cleared out on here and with elders.

[MisterrSingh]

7 minutes ago, TejS said:

I'm of the same opinion of this. Not a very good position to be in, and that's why I'm trying to get things cleared out on here and with elders.

It's a process of continual learning. The journey isn't over yet. Keep chipping away. 

[Guest]

On 6/22/2018 at 11:04 AM, MisterrSingh said:

I can appreciate why you'd say such a thing. I'm, for better or worse, a firm believer of the mystical and divine as it relates to Sikhi, and I always have been of this frame of mind from a very young age, yet after reading up on other groups and races throughout history who've categorically achieved "more" than us in a temporal sense for the long-term benefit and prosperity of their own kind, most - if not all - of these groups managed such feats without a guiding religious doctrine or even a concrete belief in anything beyond the strength of their own actions and convictions. One would think a group backed by the truly divine guiding hand would have something greater to show for their achievements when compared to all the base, man-made philosophies on which the foundations of other cultures and races were established. Yes, the immediate defence would be to suggest, "But there are greater things in God's kingdom than are to be found on Earth," which is baffling considering all the bloodshed, the suffering, and the sacrifices are made here for... what purpose exactly?

I have a feeling : our people are too simpleton. The contemporary indians didn't make us jokers for nothing. We are very gullible lot , much like typical pendu who gets easily swayed by other's words. We lack that cunning nature to twist other's hands to get our things done. Sometimes I feel it is our principles and ideals that we swear to stick by that have been mostly our bane throughout our history. However , at the same time I feel there's not much principle alternative that we had. When we have "sarbat da bhala" mindset included in our daily prayers and nothing wrong with that, we're sure to etch that principle in our minds. 

Unfortunately though it becomes a case like "Expecting others to not beat you because you don't beat them is like a deer expecting the lion won't eat it because it won't eat the lion" . And we have seen this pattern repeat itself throughout history. Today we're political subservient to people who themselves were politically subservient to foreign powers for almost thousand years. People who shed far little blood than us quickly grabbed the opportunity when it came to their avail and we didn't / couldn't do that because we simply didn't have the enough numbers to compel an existing authority to give us our share of power. 

The religious institutions we created out of our good will and the humanistic ideals of our gurus , langar for instance, are abused by the same people who're repulsive to the idea of sikhi becoming prominent. 

Or in a mythical vein I could say "Our time simply hasn't come yet" . Perhaps there is some prophetic hue to the lines we say in our ardas "Raaj karega khalsa . Aaqi rahe na koi . khwaar hoye sab milenge " .

I guess we're at that "khwaar" (dispersed and beaten) stage now .