Sikh history of 18th century seems highly depressing and sikhs didn't even get a fair share :'(

[Ranjeet01]

25 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I have a feeling : our people are too simpleton. The contemporary indians didn't make us jokers for nothing. We are very gullible lot , much like typical pendu who gets easily swayed by other's words. We lack that cunning nature to twist other's hands to get our things done. Sometimes I feel it is our principles and ideals that we swear to stick by that have been mostly our bane throughout our history. However , at the same time I feel there's not much principle alternative that we had. When we have "sarbat da bhala" mindset included in our daily prayers and nothing wrong with that, we're sure to etch that principle in our minds. 

Unfortunately though it becomes a case like "Expecting others to not beat you because you don't beat them is like a deer expecting the lion won't eat it because it won't eat the lion" . And we have seen this pattern repeat itself throughout history. Today we're political subservient to people who themselves were politically subservient to foreign powers for almost thousand years. People who shed far little blood than us quickly grabbed the opportunity when it came to their avail and we didn't / couldn't do that because we simply didn't have the enough numbers to compel an existing authority to give us our share of power. 

The religious institutions we created out of our good will and the humanistic ideals of our gurus , langar for instance, are abused by the same people who're repulsive to the idea of sikhi becoming prominent. 

Or in a mythical vein I could say "Our time simply hasn't come yet" . Perhaps there is some prophetic hue to the lines we say in our ardas "Raaj karega khalsa . Aaqi rahe na koi . khwaar hoye sab milenge " .

I guess we're at that "khwaar" (dispersed and beaten) stage now . 

Great Analysis!

[MisterrSingh]

2 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I have a feeling : our people are too simpleton. The contemporary indians didn't make us jokers for nothing. We are very gullible lot , much like typical pendu who gets easily swayed by other's words. We lack that cunning nature to twist other's hands to get our things done. Sometimes I feel it is our principles and ideals that we swear to stick by that have been mostly our bane throughout our history. However , at the same time I feel there's not much principle alternative that we had. When we have "sarbat da bhala" mindset included in our daily prayers and nothing wrong with that, we're sure to etch that principle in our minds. 

Unfortunately though it becomes a case like "Expecting others to not beat you because you don't beat them is like a deer expecting the lion won't eat it because it won't eat the lion" . And we have seen this pattern repeat itself throughout history. Today we're political subservient to people who themselves were politically subservient to foreign powers for almost thousand years. People who shed far little blood than us quickly grabbed the opportunity when it came to their avail and we didn't / couldn't do that because we simply didn't have the enough numbers to compel an existing authority to give us our share of power. 

The religious institutions we created out of our good will and the humanistic ideals of our gurus , langar for instance, are abused by the same people who're repulsive to the idea of sikhi becoming prominent. 

Or in a mythical vein I could say "Our time simply hasn't come yet" . Perhaps there is some prophetic hue to the lines we say in our ardas "Raaj karega khalsa . Aaqi rahe na koi . khwaar hoye sab milenge " .

I guess we're at that "khwaar" (dispersed and beaten) stage now . 

Great post, bro. I've got a paat I must attend, lol, but you've identified some highly salient arguments that tie in with a few thoughts I've been mulling over in recent years. I'll try to give you my take on this discussion in a while.

[Guest]

On 6/22/2018 at 11:04 AM, MisterrSingh said:

Yes, the immediate defence would be to suggest, "But there are greater things in God's kingdom than are to be found on Earth," which is baffling considering all the bloodshed, the suffering, and the sacrifices are made here for... what purpose exactly?

To sift away the true path from the false ones.

These shaheeds are the evidences of the strength of Guru Nanak's sikhi when applied in the properest sense. 

Imagine a radhasoami , nirankari, chele of all the fake babe thesedays in the 18th century Punjab . and when faced with the executioner's saw, blades, torture wheels or dungeons , what would they have done ? you think they would have the substance to face all these ? You know the answer lol. 

Yet the sikhs did and when times of peace came , these babey mushrooomed up all over the place. However someone with even a cursory glance over history could say who stuck out like a fury against evil in the darkest chapter of punjab history. It were the sikhs treading on the true path of sikhi.

History has proven the strength of Nanak's sikhi. and martyrs are fine example of that.

[Guest]

Can sikhs get their empire back?

[jkvlondon]

2 hours ago, NonExistant said:

Can sikhs get their empire back?

they can do better than just that how about turning brahmanwad on its head and capturing the hearts of the whole nation of Hindia , sometimes I look at what ish these hindvuta are doing and it makes me happy because all the decent folk are finally saying if you think that is good for me and my country No thanks.

Lately a whole village of dalits threw out their murtis and pictures of devtey and devian  because of hinduvta start replicating that all over and the time for khalsa is coming

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

and the time for khalsa is coming

its going to be tough one too , even for sikhs.  

[Akalifauj]

On 6/21/2018 at 2:25 PM, MisterrSingh said:

Were they not just surviving from one day to the next with little thought of anything beyond immediate, local issues? Does that kind of far-sightedness ring true as the kind of sentiment that comes naturally to us to that particular extent? I think it's a slightly romanticised re-telling of the past. 

If they were just surviving they would have converted and lived under the oppressive regimes. Sikhs would have joined the oppressive regimes and would have been successful as today badal family is.  Gursikhs of the past fought for freedom and to spread Gurbani.  Gurbani says to spread the singing of shabad Guru in others hearts.  There is nothing romanticising about the past Sikhs dedication toward Sikhi.  They were 100 times stronger in their Sikhi than Sikhs are today.  The weak minded sikhs of today apply their own inability to follow Gurbani on how Sikhs would have been of the past.  Now this is the fantasy sikhs live in today to make thrmselves feel better on how unsuccessful they are in achieving Sikhi.

[proactive]

On 6/23/2018 at 10:11 AM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I have a feeling : our people are too simpleton. The contemporary indians didn't make us jokers for nothing. We are very gullible lot , much like typical pendu who gets easily swayed by other's words. We lack that cunning nature to twist other's hands to get our things done. Sometimes I feel it is our principles and ideals that we swear to stick by that have been mostly our bane throughout our history. However , at the same time I feel there's not much principle alternative that we had. When we have "sarbat da bhala" mindset included in our daily prayers and nothing wrong with that, we're sure to etch that principle in our minds. 

Unfortunately though it becomes a case like "Expecting others to not beat you because you don't beat them is like a deer expecting the lion won't eat it because it won't eat the lion" . And we have seen this pattern repeat itself throughout history. Today we're political subservient to people who themselves were politically subservient to foreign powers for almost thousand years. People who shed far little blood than us quickly grabbed the opportunity when it came to their avail and we didn't / couldn't do that because we simply didn't have the enough numbers to compel an existing authority to give us our share of power. 

The religious institutions we created out of our good will and the humanistic ideals of our gurus , langar for instance, are abused by the same people who're repulsive to the idea of sikhi becoming prominent. 

Or in a mythical vein I could say "Our time simply hasn't come yet" . Perhaps there is some prophetic hue to the lines we say in our ardas "Raaj karega khalsa . Aaqi rahe na koi . khwaar hoye sab milenge " .

I guess we're at that "khwaar" (dispersed and beaten) stage now . 

The Sikhs of today are that way because after 1947 we have been ruled by a secular elite determined to turn Sikhi into a just another Hindu sect. Our children have been educated by left wing atheist teachers who have moulded their young minds into SJW and not Khalsa warriors. We have had Indian culture thrust down our throats for over 70 years. This all has to have an effect us and you can see the effects. We are allowing Islam and Christianity take a hold in our Punjab. The Sikhs prior to 1947 did not have these influences and if influences were trying to make an impact the Sikh leadership was sure to take it on and stop it in its tracks. We now have a sell out leadership and what is even worst is that the majority of Sikhs still do not realise this. 

The Sikhs of 1978 to 1994 were able to take on the Indian state because they had a Sikh leader who was able to awake these Sikhs from their slumber and make them realise that they were mere slaves in the Indian political set up.  If you listen to the discourses of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale you will hear how his constant refrain is to show Sikhs just how low they had fallen to the level of slaves in the Indian system. Unfortunately without such leadership Sikhs invariably revert back to being sheep. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

This negative thinking is astonishing. But i feel it is due to 1984.  The spiritual aspect of sikhi was lost and panjabism helped us survive after 84.

All.the idealist, were killed fighting for khalistan. We r the children of those that lay low in 84, discouraged us from being too religious and told to be more practical. And then when sikh betrayals,.intersikh fighting, scandals happened, it only affirmed the view that the religious were fake and weak

But u guys r thinking too negatively. Look at the jewish ppl. Has anyone suffered as them? Yet they take pride in the suffering. They say as Gods chosen ppl, we will continue to suffer. 

Christianity is 2000 years old. So how old is judiasm? And when were they exiled? And finally in 1940s,.they got their land..and now.they r the most influential in terms of science and media and politics worldwide. 

But look how long it took.

And look at sikhs. From being simple farmers in panjab. To politics in canada, university positions, lawyers in DC. Within 2 generations. 

1984 did us a bit of a favor. It created a diaspora. And that diaspora is not at refugee level at all. But successful. Sikhs are on all continemts except 1. 

The jewish ppl faced discrimination and pograms in russia and other european countries for centuries. They moved from one country to another like gypsies. Because soon each country would become antisemitic. 

And jewish ppl were a urban ppl with literacy and skills and had a monopoly on usury/loans.What skills did our forefathers have? Besides farming and soldering? We have achieved greater success, faster. Ofc it will.take time to become as great as the jewish. Esp in nobel prize. But i feel, w got too.used to comfort and are already moving back into laziness, drugs,.complaining,.veing discouraged. 

Also how is it fair, that God gives us comforts and a kingdom based on our ancestors sufferings? Dont we believe in individual karma? But a taksali kathavachik did say. That sikhs in the west are those sikhs reincarnated. Those that starved in jungles.and were hounded. Those that did not have the avastha to see it as hukam and bhana. Because he said, not all sikhs of the time were like baba deep singh. Like in 84, not all were like sant jarnail singh. Some were just innocents murdered. So they got to be reborn in comfort...

Also, do u want sikh ppl to be just another community? Living and reproducing? Or upholders of morality, fighting against tyranny? If so, shouldnt it take a toll? I mean if it was easy,.wouldnt all do it? 

Also if they could have chardi kala in those times. Why cant we? Having a growth mindset with optimism,.helps ppl succeed. 

 

 

 

[MisterrSingh]

Being Jewish in the 21st century is more likely to be an expression of communal identity and practices -- an identity that's been forged through their various historical tribulations -- than any overt adherence to Jewish theology. 

Jewishness has almost become a synonym for describing a race and a culture than limiting itself to solely the followers of a religion. 

The one important point that needs to be highlighted is this: you will very, very rarely see a person of Jewish extraction work against Jewish interests, even if that person is irreligious, atheist, or agnostic. They realise that their various expressions of Jewishness, which is used to further their collective Jewish aims, is fundamental for the survival and prosperity of their people. Basically, they know when to tow the Jewish line for the sake of their people; there's a loyalty to that indescribable sense of Jewishness that transcends the teachings of the Talmud, the Torah, etc.