"Chand" - Is it a Khanda???

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

But the chand aint a khanda coz the crescent bit dont mean miri and piri - can someone please explain what this means - I know deep singh Ji has but Im stupid and still dont get it :wub: :wub:

[Niranjana]

Mr Singh,

What is so hard to swallow about a symbol or descriptive term that Guru Sahib may have used from something already in existence.

For instance, the following items/terms/practices common amongst Sikhs are also common elsewhere amongst Shivites (particularly Kashmiri Shavism), tantriks, Moghul Darbars and others who are now commonly termed 'hindu':-

-Thakts

-Dastaar

-Chaur Sahib over Maharaj

-concepts such as Guru and Shish

-concepts and terms such as nirgun and sargun, nirankar, akal etc

-kesh

-shastardhari

-neela and kesri colours

-vaisakhi festival

and so on...

This type of approach is not really going to get us far. Let's step away from the "Nangs" and usual chit-chat that this gets us into, the Chand can be understood as follows:-

The modern day Khanda symbol (two kirpans, khanda/bhagauti and chakar) is a recent innovation, as this symbol is not found anywhere on paintings, photgraphs, printed works until about the 1920s. It appear to have come into prominence thereafter particularly after the 1940s.

This is not too disimilar to how the Islamic symbol came into being c.1400s and how early Christians the fish as their symbol.

The Chand-tora is something that existed prior to the formalisation of Sikhi and indeed before the Gurus. It seems to have come into prominent use during the 19th century if one judges by paintings and written accounts.

At the risk of being termed a NANG or receiving the famous NANG alert I once did from certain members of this forum, it is beyond doubt that the Chand-Tora (or Aad-Chand) is an ancient symbol and has been used by variety of ancient warrior g

roups from the Indian subcontinent who invoke Shiva, be it literally or symbolically.

The Khalsa Bana is unique in its appeal to both the semetic and aryan faiths and this is evident also in the adoption of the Chand, which has both Islamic (as does the Neela Bana, hence its rejection by the Naamdharis) and 'hindu' significance (as mentioned already above), so like Bani, the Bana of the Khalsa also brings these two traditions (semetic and vedic) together in its role as the 'upjio pardana' that Bhai Vir Singh speaks of.

Some may have seen the symbol of the Chakkar and Bhagauti symbol amongst the Rattray Sikh Battlion in photos, which is also another recent symbol from the mid 19th century.

The Dogra contingent of this Battalion in fact adorned a symbol more akin to the Chand-Tora seen today worn by the UK Nihangs and the AKJ.

It is interesting to note that the Nishan Sahibs of the Sikhs used during the 2nd Anglo Sikh Wars has no symbol and are plain black or dark blue.

Here is one such Nishan Sahib:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010408/...ages/photo3.htm

[Guest Lohgarh Singh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

shere punjabi, what youve been told is a load of rubish, the chaand is to do with shiva but not about their parts. the whole thing on you, is saying you are "shiv-saroop" the very form of shiva on earth, theres alot of honour there. however, each part has a meaning. the half moon cresnt is to represent shiva, the khanda in the middle is bhaugoti, Akaal Purukhs sword, the bits a the bottom are definatly not to represent shivas bits, but dont have any significence, probably for decoration. there are many variations of the chaand, and one, has got miri and piri. please totaly discard what they have said and dont feel any shame of wearing a chaand.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Gupat Singhni]

Lol..trust the nangs to add some sexual meaning to the chand!

This is what i was told was the meaning of the chand..I may be wrong but..this is what i was told:

The chand comes from shiv ji and belongs to him but it is worn by the khalsa. You have to remember that hinduism existed before sikhi so there are certain things that are associated with hindu's but they have a separate meaning in sikhi. Back to the chand story..

When Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to akaal purakhs charan for 3 days all the devis and avtaar came before Guru Nanak Dev ji and pronounced Guru Nanak Dev Ji as the sachaa nirankaar. And all the all the devi/avtaar guns where thus given to the panth, hence 96 crori fauj.

When guru gobind singh designed the khalsa fauj the fauji singhs took the chand from shiv ji in order to represent chandr vanse fauj and the sooraj was taken from krishan avtaar to represent the soraj vanse. In this way the khalsa is every ready to fight be it day or night - chandr and soraj vanse. If someone wears a chand they are also required to wear a tegh (talvaar) because it is on the tegh the sooraj is present (usually on the handle/mutth). This translates to warriors under the sun/moon i.e the khalsa is tiyaar bar tiyaar. The khalsa never rests, we never sleep, we are never off gaurd, we are here for one thing and one thing only:

khalsa so jo karai nit jang

Be that day or night!

So the separate parts of the chand do not have any significant meaning except that the chand represents warrior by night, tthe khanda in the middle is the symbol of guru gobind singh ji..a double edged sword - the bhaugti. It is the creator and the destro

yer and represents righteousness, justice, etc. and the tegh we carry would represent warriors by day.

So every tiyaar bar tiyaar singh/singhni should wear a chand and maryada states we should also carry a tegh whilst wearing a chand..

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

[Deep Singh]

Veerji Mr. Singh,

My point was to write a short note on the 'origin of Khanda'. I have no knowledge (or just baseless points) about the origin of Chand that both Nihangs and "Neo-Nihangs" adore themselves with. As i replied in my second post, if i find something on it i will try to post it here...the sangat may decide if it is worth a discussion. I am you guys' daas. nothing more..

Veerji, the Khanda i wrote about is not 'Khanda' as per miri-piri, chakar, and the Khanda itself. I am talking about 'the Khanda itself', that is the double-mouthed or double-edged sword that is often seen in Baba Deep Singh Ji's photos (probably all Sikh warriors).

First of all i checked Mahan Kosh by Bhai Kahn Singh.

1. Khanda comes from the verb 'khandan karna', ie to destroy, cut into half etc...

It also means: to refute, rebut, deny, reject, repudiate, contradict. But in the warrior terms, it means to rip apart etc..

2. Khanda word is derived from the word Khargg (according to him). I mentioned the word 'Khargg-Ket', as it is mentioned in Chaupai Sahib.

The panktian are:

Khargg-Ket Mai Sarn(i) Tehari || Aap Haath Dai Leho Obaree ||

Sarb Thaur Mo Hohu Sahaei || Dust Dokh Tai Leho Bchaee || (25)

Khargg = Sword [other words are Kirpan, Sri Sahib, Khanda]

Ket = Flag

Mai Sarn(i) Tehari = To Seek Protection (of something)

Its literal meaning is: 'I seek protection of that Flag that has a Sword bound onto it.'

Giani Takhur Singh Ji tells that Flag-Sword is a reference to Waheguru's Sword. He says that Sri Sahib is another

word for Khargg.

Spiritual meaning can be 'I seek protection of God, that has a Sword of Knowledge.' (The sword destroys ignorance, thus it is the Sword of Knowledge)

3. The word Khargg in turn is from Dhanurved, which is as i have already said believed to have been the 'knowledge of Shivji' that appeared in form of an Upved. Rest read it again.

My conclusion: If you have ever heard of a branch of knowledge called Nirukat (in western term it is called etymology), i used Mahan Kosh to show the etymological meaning/background of the word Khanda or Khargg, that can be used for each other.

What does that mean? It means that the TERMS comes from Vedic literature. The spiritual meaning that they have in Gurbani can be very different.

There are several methods of interpretation. One is nirukat, other is through spiritual meanings (param-arth). Nirukat tells us the 'background' or about the roots of the word, and that is what i tried to do.

To give a somewhat spiritual meaning, Aatmik Gyan is need, and that i certainly don't have. Therefore i gave 'the sword of knowledge' meaning as someone has done that in an English translation.

[Deep Singh]

It is interesting to note that the Nishan Sahibs of the Sikhs used during the 2nd Anglo Sikh Wars has no symbol and are plain black or dark blue.

Here is one such Nishan Sahib:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010408/...ages/photo3.htm

It looks like there is a teer/khargg and a flag. So, that is what a 'Khargg-Ket' really looks like?

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

I remember reading somewhere that the Chand represented the concepts of Degh (the half moon symbol) and the Tegh (Khanda).

[amandeep]

There has been an almost identical discussion on the tapoban site. At risk of repetition is may be worth reading this :

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1...898#reply_19334

[Deep Singh]

Amandeep.. Ji,

What is your opinion on Khargg-Ket? Is it possible that any of the Nishan Sahib were in the form of Khargg-Kets?

Thanks for the link! Would you kindly add some pictures here, as it is possible to do so on Sikhsangat.com (if you are not able to do so, i am sure someone here can help you..)

So the Aad-Chand does represent the Islamic moon and the Shivling....

[amandeep]

The etymology that you provided is really interesting and as you say relates to the khanda (sword). this thows up an intersting point, because you have traced the word through to an origin in both shiv symbolism and as a standard or flag - this si probably the root of why Sikhs now refer to the symbol (2 tulwars, chakkar and bhangauti) as a khanda.

The Add Chand as a Shiv symbol has such an ancient root and is so well documented that to claim otherwise would need some really solid proof (and I havent really seen anything like that on this topic. I know that Sikhs dont like hearing this, but the Add Chand is an ancient Shiv symbol which includes a central Shivling. This is not (as osmeone mentioned) a sexual connetation and it is not some kind of Nihang subversion.

I have always contended that anyone that chooses to put any symbol on their turban (whether that is an Add Chand, Khanda or even a Nike symbol!) shoudl understand exactly what it is, what it means and its history. To place a symbol on your forehead and not undertsand it simply belittles it and the wearer. the Add Chand is a well understood symbol and so is the more modern khanda both have their histories and both make a statement in different ways

aman