ANOTHER SIKH FALLING FOR THE TRAP OF DAWAH GUYS

[dallysingh101 1,700]

1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'm glad you mentioned this aspect of it. The Gianis and others with the apparent knowledge are out of touch with the issues facing Sikhs on a social level. It's preaching to the converted most of the times, and even then it has very little impact. In the West there's a slight difference where English speaking parchaar is conducted by individuals who use the exact same approach as their Indian counterparts; there's an unfortunate aspect of a performance occuring instead of a honest and direct dialogue. You see these individuals who develop a following behave as if they exist on an ethereal plane of serenity above and separate from the rest of us cattle. They're more concerned with trying to imitate or create an image of an enlightened holy being than actually impart something practical and useful.

I'm glad you mentioned this because I think this vacuum is what pretty much forces some concerned people within the panth (who are outside of this bubble) to take drastic action to fill in the voids, which are essentially avenues for those with ill-intent to undermine and attack us in various ways. The grooming and conversion issues perfectly illustrate this. 

You'd have thought something as serious as these things would be a high priority with gianis but it hasn't been, leading to more and more problems. And few gianis have a real grasp of the significance of generational, cultural and language barriers at work and can't conceptualise such issues beyond people misbehaving or being indifferent - when it is infinitely more complex than that (ironically it is one of the messages CP conveys in my opinion, so we have precedent). Plus many are essentially employees who are under threat of their livelihoods if they upset the sentiments of the powerful, well-established genteel elements within us.  That's why you have the rise of other groups who are compelled to take action to redress this imbalance. 

That dynamic, socially openly honest, self-protective element within Sikhi has been diminished and replaced by a conservatism with now habitually adopts a risk averse ostrich stance to contentious but serious issues we face - because it is 'safer' but it isn't - it's just facilitating a slow death. 

So we should be thankful for those that step outside of this and try and redress this, and fully support them - because they are fighting a tide. Which can be reversed. 

[Guest guestKaur17]

Seriously that guy DOES not look SIKH or Punjabi...when i first saw it i was like where is the Sikh?! He looking Typical Pakistani...like common on!! They doing this to make us furious and rise a reaction...Who thinks that guy is SIKH?! These muslim will do anything to get to come after our community..(grooming gangs posing as Sikhs) ...

[Guest I_Kaur]

11 hours ago, Guest guestKaur17 said:

Seriously that guy DOES not look SIKH or Punjabi...when i first saw it i was like where is the Sikh?! He looking Typical Pakistani...like common on!! They doing this to make us furious and rise a reaction...Who thinks that guy is SIKH?! These muslim will do anything to get to come after our community..(grooming gangs posing as Sikhs) ...

We have to admit, that not every single Sikh or who claims to be a Sikh, are Keshadharis. There are many 'weak in faith' Sikh's out there. That's a fact. These young guys are from Sikh families, who are turning away from Sikhi and instead of shoving it under the carpet, we must face it and respond. It's just a challenge of this era, and unless we admit it, we cannot find an answer. But if the leaders and our intellectuals are out sight and out of touch, than it'll only get worse. Today it's someone else's brother, tomorrow it'll reach our own homes and affect our own families. 

[BhForce 1,100]

On 6/28/2019 at 3:25 AM, MisterrSingh said:

he Gianis and others with the apparent knowledge are out of touch with the issues facing Sikhs on a social level.

Yeah.

On 6/28/2019 at 3:25 AM, MisterrSingh said:

You see these individuals who develop a following behave as if they exist on an ethereal plane of serenity above and separate from the rest of us cattle.

Like the Dalai Lama, "His Holiness"?

On 6/28/2019 at 3:25 AM, MisterrSingh said:

I'm not surprised contemporary Sikhs of the younger generations can't relate to their religion.

I think what you're saying is that what needs to be said in the Gurdwara is what they don't say in the Gurdwara.

As for the physical needs, I agree that bodieshave physical needs. But is that something to be addressed from the stage? Stuff like helping young people with their college applications, job search, etc., is something that Sikhs are beginning to do, but Gianis aren't supposed to do that, right?

[BhForce 1,100]

On 6/28/2019 at 5:05 AM, dallysingh101 said:

And few gianis have a real grasp of the significance of generational, cultural and language barriers at work

You mean as in being raised and trained in Punjab?

But the answer would not be a random Sikh born in the West, right? 

I mean, not having full training in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Just being able to speak English and then spouting off your own opinions is not useful.

[MisterrSingh 3,282]

30 minutes ago, BhForce said:

As for the physical needs, I agree that bodieshave physical needs. But is that something to be addressed from the stage? Stuff like helping young people with their college applications, job search, etc., is something that Sikhs are beginning to do, but Gianis aren't supposed to do that, right?

What's stopping them from relating Sikh spiritual guidance to the social and political ills of our everyday lives? How to protect oneself from the onslaught of physical, everyday forces that wears down the individual's spiritual defences? An awareness of transient political chicanery and manoeuvring designed to undermine our culture's and religion's positive conservative values of respect, honour, restraint, and decency? An awareness and admission that other faiths are drawing away Sikhs to the ranks of other religions, and how to resist such openly hostile actions? These issues and many more can be directly related to Sikh teachings and Sikh history. Why the reluctance to use the past as an indicator of what's yet to occur? The signs are there. Why do these apparently educated and enlightened people not see it?

You honestly assumed I was referring to filling in application forms? Do you find me mentally retarded or do you not think much of my contributions?

 

30 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Like the Dalai Lama, "His Holiness"?

Not quite. 

I'm referring to the kind of individuals in our community who put on a performance by imitating the demeanour, mannerisms, and bearing of genuine Sikh personalities who've earned their spiritual spurs. Most of us have encountered the imitators: the heavy-lidded, contemplative glance as if they've emerged from a spiritual trance; the slow, deliberate drawl as they speak as if they're channelling ethereal knowledge from the Beyond. Clowns in their 20s and 30s play acting at sainthood. It's funny to see these frauds hoodwink so many impressionable souls. 

 

30 minutes ago, BhForce said:

I think what you're saying is that what needs to be said in the Gurdwara is what they don't say in the Gurdwara.

Yes. 

Edited July 1 by MisterrSingh

[BhForce 1,100]

1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

What's stopping them from relating Sikh spiritual guidance to the social and political ills of our everyday lives?

Woul that not be problematic? I mean we have enough religious fights as it is.

What if you added to that Giani ji opining on Brexit being good or bad? Or what the tax rate is supposed to be in whatever country you live in?

3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

the heavy-lidded, contemplative glance as if they've emerged from a spiritual trance; the slow, deliberate drawl as they speak as if they're channelling ethereal knowledge from the Beyond

Lol.

3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Clowns in their 20s and 30s play acting at sainthood.

I assume you're talking about Sant Dhadrianwale?

[BhForce 1,100]

4 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

 

You honestly assumed I was referring to filling in application forms?

Well, what else? I mean we have the food thing pretty well covered with langar. 

Help with doing your taxes at the end of the fiscal year?

Help with kakkars at work? I think we have Sikh Coalition and such for that.

Anything else? I do think marriage counseling is a big one.

[MisterrSingh 3,282]

12 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Well, what else? I mean we have the food thing pretty well covered with langar. 

Help with doing your taxes at the end of the fiscal year?

Help with kakkars at work? I think we have Sikh Coalition and such for that.

Anything else? I do think marriage counseling is a big one.

My lunch break is nearly over. I'll give you a detailed reply when I get home in the evening. I do think you're deliberately choosing not to see the bigger picture I'm illustrating by reducing the argument to a low-level, two dimensional view of the problems. I think you're well aware of my intent, but for some reason you're determined to reduce my arguments to a simplistic, contrarian viewpoint that ultimately preserves a status quo that is doing visible and active damage to our people and our ways. If, however, you truly aren't able to comprehend the meaning and intent behind my ideas, I don't know where to begin to help you understand, because the accumlative sum of my thoughts on these issues in turn originate from years of contemplation, analysis that has resulted in hundreds of diverse and multi-faceted impressions that rely on perquisite knowledge that can't be condensed into bite size explanations without losing the detailed complexity to do those ideas justice. I could try and spoon feed you but it would be incredibly frustrating because I sense you aren't receptive to the ideas I'm proposing. I'm not sure whether you're playing Devil's Advocate or whether you honestly believe everything is fine as it is. 

[BhForce 1,100]

1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

I do think you're deliberately choosing not to see the bigger picture

No, I'm not playing. I'm just asking you to sketch out what we should be doing in relation to miri (temporal aspect of Sikhism) without leading to more fights in the Gurdwara, thereby alienating more young people.

I do agree that miri should have a place in the Gurdwara.

[dallysingh101 1,700]

40 minutes ago, BhForce said:

You mean as in being raised and trained in Punjab?

But the answer would not be a random Sikh born in the West, right? 

I mean, not having full training in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Just being able to speak English and then spouting off your own opinions is not useful.

Of course knowledge of Gurbani (and even wider Sikh texts) is a must. This is even more pertinent because we have strains (or interpretations) of our heritage that is heavily influenced by outside thought. We've talked about the difference between 'Sikhism' and Sikhi. We've got universities in Punjab and abroad pushing casteist/racialised interpretations of our history too. Plus as someone else mentioned, there is an attempt to define SIkhi as another offshoot of 'Hinduism too'. Then the whole thing with people somehow perceiving SIkhi as analogous to modern, western liberal values and all they entail.  Trying to navigate outside of this is no easy task.  

But we need socially aware people to do this in the west at least. I think we've got a chance in the UK. Look at how some of our people do step up against the odds here (Bhai Jagraj SIngh, Bhai Mohan Singh, SIkh Youth UK).  And people do respond to that.

As local 'gianis' we do need people who understand the social, cultural and psychological factors that influence people's decisions. I'm not sure if 'Panjabi culture' will be a strong consideration soon either? 

Truth is that our issues can't be dealt with in one stroke or with one solution. We have different demographics and different levels of interest (and even loyalty) and intelligence at play - let alone people's own innate inclinations.  People have already been heavily influenced by what I mentioned in the first para - some families for many generations. For many people (maybe most?), telling them to become proficient in reading what (to them) on a material level, would be perceived as medieval mystical poetry and that which is written in language(s) that they will in all probability struggle to comprehend - when they have all manner of things to preoccupy themselves with (like social media) - won't be easy. And how do we activate minds to actually engage with their heritage on a personalised level, that they will want to retain on a lifelong basis? I do belief that naam-simran will play a massive part in this, and maybe we haven't really been focusing on this core aspect enough. Maybe we can relate it to people in modern parlance too - i.e. 'meditation'. 

But if people think we can create some perfect model society - I think they might be being seriously unrealistic. Those people in tightly knit, cult like jathebandis who seem to exist in some judgemental, parallel universe don't help either. Look we need to be realistic about human nature and social realities without this weird tendency to idealise the image of our society (past and present) - I think CP definitely sets a precedent for this. We will have a diverse panth (inevitably), people need to wake up to this. We won't agree on everything either. But the way some people hinge on specific issues (like vegetarianism for example) like this is the most important thing we are facing right now, just shows how out of touch with ground level threats and realities many people are at - and families closeting boys plays a big part in this. 

Intelligence and social awareness are central to our future - and I don't mean academic stuff only. We don't want to be looking in another brother/sister's eyes and seeing that blank, docile look that is all too familiar. Or someone that has had such a rigid interpretation of our heritage drummed into their heads that they have lost all capacity for dynamic thought, especially in relation to restructuring our society in a more effective/stronger way - that will be essential to navigate rapidly changing times. 

[Guest guest]

what exactly do you think a Giani is?  a Giani is just someone who has (presumably) studied the formalities of Sikh scripture, religious etiquette.  being a social leader/worker was never in their "job description".

"sikhs" have always been going off to other religions.  see stuff from 100 years ago.  people shouting about sikhs becoming Christian etc.  its not a new thing.  and its not an interesting thing.  

the truth is that the people who convert were already inclined to do so.  the first move comes from them.  there are many muslim-wannabes in the youth these days, even on this site.  i call them 'persian worshippers', because usually the obvious sign is a fixation with persian language.  why don't they just go ahead and become muslim?  

as for "child" grooming.   a 14 year old knows what they are doing dating a grow man, and they know it is wrong.  they get warned that muslims are bad etc but still go after them.  so it is their own stupidity and evil (running around behind their parents back) that puts them in these situations.  its nothing to do with some "Giani's" shirking their responsibility.  

"listen to and respect your parents and behave yourself, and don't do any <banned word filter activated> that you know is wrong."  its not rocket science.

[dallysingh101 1,700]

15 hours ago, Guest guest said:

what exactly do you think a Giani is?  a Giani is just someone who has (presumably) studied the formalities of Sikh scripture, religious etiquette.  being a social leader/worker was never in their "job description".

"sikhs" have always been going off to other religions.  see stuff from 100 years ago.  people shouting about sikhs becoming Christian etc.  its not a new thing.  and its not an interesting thing.  

the truth is that the people who convert were already inclined to do so.  the first move comes from them.  there are many muslim-wannabes in the youth these days, even on this site.  i call them 'persian worshippers', because usually the obvious sign is a fixation with persian language.  why don't they just go ahead and become muslim?  

as for "child" grooming.   a 14 year old knows what they are doing dating a grow man, and they know it is wrong.  they get warned that muslims are bad etc but still go after them.  so it is their own stupidity and evil (running around behind their parents back) that puts them in these situations.  its nothing to do with some "Giani's" shirking their responsibility.  

"listen to and respect your parents and behave yourself, and don't do any <banned word filter activated> that you know is wrong."  its not rocket science.

Simple simon has spoke!

Everything is ABC and straightforward. How comes the rest of us can't see it that way! 

Underaged female grooming victims are to blame for their predicament. Never mind that the groomer is breaking the law themselves. Hormones don't play any role. A finely honed system to entrap and abuse such girls that has been developed over decades (if not centuries) doesn't exist. There are no people that have a grudge against Sikhs for historical reasons like religious rivalries or just plain old fashioned white supremacism. Growing up in a bi-cultural setting like diaspora kids do, doesn't ever cause confusion. The heavily sexualised nature of UK television (and culture) doesn't have any effect on young people growing up around it. 

We shouldn't really question the role of the giani today in the UK, and whether it is adequate for today's needs and environment - and perhaps seek to adapt to requirements.

[AkalkiFauj 23]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 6:44 AM, Redoptics said:

It's how the parents raise children now, if the parents do not have belief in Sikhi what are the children going to do? Obviously they would get led astray.

Very true ji. I know loads of people that go to the gurdwara once a year on Bandi Chor Diwas. We need to teach the youth about Sikhi

[Guest GuestSingh]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:44 AM, Redoptics said:

It's how the parents raise children now, if the parents do not have belief in Sikhi what are the children going to do? Obviously they would get led astray.

it can depend on the kid too - if one has certain morals/ethics from young n can pick up on certain experiences in life then itll jus feel wrong but thts just my feelings on it.

maybe todays youth have it more difficult wiv the stronger peer pressure from social media - cuz there was none growing up in the 90s.

but personally speaking, having parents u described n rarely goin gurdwara, theres not really any otha word to describe it - the thought of converting had never really entered my mind at all.