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22 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Just to nitpick, it was actually bhai gurdaas jis faith in himself that made him waver. His tuk said, If the guru tests his sikh, a sikh should not waver.

After his tribulations and forgiveness by the the guru, he changed it to If the Guru tests a sikh, what can the poor sikh do? 

Would be very nice to find an early textual source for this fascinating sakhi. 



But that is a mindset, the sikhs have lost. We used to say only Guruji knows about any intrepretation of bani. As for Babas and gursikhs,.people were inspired by them but knew Bhulan andar sabko, abhul guru kartaar. And sikhs used to have their own panchait to give tankhaah and other punishments to each other. 

I think we have a strange deferential mindset still common in the panth, mixed with high levels of superstition that makes some apnay and apneean bow down to parcharaks rather than respecting them for what they are. Yes, a small number are mahapursh worthy of deference, but this mindset also opens up apnay/apneean to being conned by sly people who've put on an outward appearance to fleece them.

There is an interesting very early sakhi in Chibber's rehit (at least 1765 ad, if not earlier), that records a Singh coming from a far away sangat for dasmesh pita's darshan  in their darbar. He had a big sum of money with him from collecting tankhaah payments from his local sangat, and Guru ji instructed him to spend it all on clothes and shoes for poor Sikhs. This was a way in which wealth was redistributed to help poor Sikhs in our Guru's time. 

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On 2/2/2020 at 9:48 PM, S1ngh said:

Maybe i post my opinion in this hotly talked topic....

Sikh culture shows that common 'educated' Sikh household respects girl(s) in the family. However, there is also big problem of treating females not too well mostly psychological mental way. 

Blaming Sikh culture

We have a group who been thru terrible abuse by male or family (mental, physical) but they should not paint the whole sikh society having the same character as of their abuser. Sikhs and our dharam is the first in this world which gave the equal right to female gender - way before the west and others did. Please do not copy the west definition of equality but research the khalsa based gender equality. 

Blaming Sikh girls

Sikh females who are outspoken on the abuse problems of female gender and highlighting those problem should not be rejected based on your/our own personal opinion that these bibian are too much feminist and bringing our culture down. Do not paint them with the same picture of 'some' loose character girls some of members mentioned in this thread of clubbing, smoking, drinking etc. It is insulting. 

All above abuse problem is there due to lack of sikh dharam playing central role in the family.

Having sikh dharam playing the central role will help the following:

  • Male members will stop drinking like a crazy drunkard. Most abuse happens due to abuse of alcoholism.
  • Implementation of simple anand karaj. Root problem of 'kuri maar' social evil is due to dowry.
  • Treat sikh boys and girls all same. Same piyar and responsibilities given to them.
  • Equal divide of inheritance

Both sides of debates should realize that this abuse is there in every community but Sikhs can easily tackle this problem due to the guidelines that our guru sahib jee wrote for us (gurbani). We are lucky to have the treasure but still are not tacking this problem or deny to confirm this problem. 

Apologies, many on here tend to overlook messages of actual substance. It's not sikh culture, it's the negative points in Punjabi culture as you pointed out. 


Yes it's a real problem the world over, and in my personal experience, it's been a major issue in Punjabi families in my sphere including my own. I am not implying at all that men or people around the world dont suffer from these issues.

From what I have seen immediately first hand, punjabis need to openly and freely start spreading awareness of these issues instead of brushing them under the carpet in shame. 

The sikh awareness society I believe has been tackling these issues including sexual abuse for sometime now but I think the shame factor with abuse needs to be taken away and more action needs to be taken. 

When I was brutally beaten up by a family member, I was told it was my fault, that its normal for women to be beaten up(I was told this by the majority of surprisingly my female family members and pubjabi friends too) and that i should forgive and forget. The police told me if i was beaten a little more I could have died. 

And this is what I got from my family and so called friends. No support or help, just a desire to see back in a Dangerous situation where I could potentially be seriously injured or killed the next time. 

In these cases, the police Should be called, Action Should be taken and the perpetrator SHOULDNT get away with the crime. Because its Not normal and it's not acceptable. 

I had nowhere to live, no money, no job and no support network. I suffered from PTSD and still do to this day, years later. 

Women suffer WAY worse than I have and need support networks they feel comfortable communicating with. 

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