Women, strength, liberation

[jkvlondon]

1 minute ago, dallysingh101 said:

Your making the same mistake Bhai Gurdas did when he thought that he was automatically infallible due to Guru ji's unwavering grace. Remember the sakhi about bhai sahib going to Afghanistan/Iraq(?) to buy horses and getting conned and then avoiding Guru sahib out of shame and then amending the vaar that made such a bold supposition? I don't think we ever lose that capacity to falter, it's the nit jungh against it that is the battle. 

Plus we have Panth Prakash stating that some Singhnia (probably scared, young and impressionable?) were seduced by the Brars in whose territory Sikhs were compelled to stay, due to being hunted by the state. 

I admit my mistake of thinking the blessed of that time would be automatically better than us now  (I know i am full of avgun), can't help thinking that way because of sakhian of how Guru ji saved his sikhs from falling from their rehit . In that time when Guru was there many miracles occured where the lowliest became the leaders in rehit and pureness

[jkvlondon]

6 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Your making the same mistake Bhai Gurdas did when he thought that he was automatically infallible due to Guru ji's unwavering grace. Remember the sakhi about bhai sahib going to Afghanistan/Iraq(?) to buy horses and getting conned and then avoiding Guru sahib out of shame and then amending the vaar that made such a bold supposition? I don't think we ever lose that capacity to falter, it's the nit jungh against it that is the battle. 

Plus we have Panth Prakash stating that some Singhnia (probably scared, young and impressionable?) were seduced by the Brars in whose territory Sikhs were compelled to stay, due to being hunted by the state. 

but Brars were sikhs mainly , yeah I know that half were more worried about paise than Guru ji and were released from the army

[dallysingh101]

1 minute ago, jkvlondon said:

but Brars were sikhs mainly , yeah I know that half were more worried about paise than Guru ji and were released from the army

The ones in PP were the children/grandchildren of the ones that Guru ji stayed with and mentioned in Zafarnama I believe. When these descendents were asked to take Amrit, they scoffed and said let us give you our amrit made with the amniotic fluid of pussoos (according to PP).  

 

5 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

I admit my mistake of thinking the blessed of that time would be automatically better than us now  (I know i am full of avgun), can't help thinking that way because of sakhian of how Guru ji saved his sikhs from falling from their rehit . In that time when Guru was there many miracles occured where the lowliest became the leaders in rehit and pureness

Don't go all simple minded on us! If deception along lustful lines were not an issue back then, Guru ji wouldn't have tried to educate us about the problem with CP (and I know CP contains A LOT more than just that). 

[jkvlondon]

2 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

The ones in PP were the children/grandchildren of the ones that Guru ji stayed with and mentioned in Zafarnama I believe. When these descendents were asked to take Amrit, they scoffed and said let us give you our amrit made with the amniotic fluid of pussoos (according to PP).  

 

Don't go all simple minded on us! If deception along lustful lines were not an issue back then, Guru ji wouldn't have tried to educate us about the problem with CP (and I know CP contains A LOT more than just that). 

Panth Prakash I have not read in full so will get back to you on that , sounds outrageous and something Guru ji would not have tolerated

 

Not simpleminded just describing how I feel about Guru ji ... CP is for all sikhs (because sikhi is accepting the Guru fully and yes I agree those with clean hearts will not be able to comprehend the machinations of foul minds )

[dallysingh101]

12 hours ago, Guest Women said:

Im asking how we can HELP WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN ABUSED, NOT HOW MEN FEEL LIKE THEYRE BEING ATTACKED WHEN THIS TRUTH HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO LIGHT.

Create strong support networks. Safe houses with trustable and effective security (remember that the government ones in the UK were essentially used by groomers to pick up the vulnerable underaged Sikh girls here, so security is important). Get professional counsellors for the females (I think this type of stuff works better with females, blokes don't like talking for some reason). 

Get the girls on courses to give them skills they can use to earn a living. Have the abusers punished and shamed to deter others. 

[dallysingh101]

Just now, jkvlondon said:

Not simpleminded just describing how I feel about Guru ji ... CP is for all sikhs (because sikhi is accepting the Guru fully and yes I agree those with clean hearts will not be able to comprehend the machinations of foul minds )

Well, it looks like we've been told to grasp it for our own protection. And (I'm not making this personal towards you), I do believe it is simple mindedness. That argument can not be used because we're pretty much guaranteeing more of the same from predators if we accept it. A theme of CP clearly seems to be "know the actions, tactics and minds of your enemies".

You can't transpose a limiting conception on Guru ji (who was infinite) like that I believe. CP clearly shows that they had no qualms about getting straight to the heart of the matter with absolutely no coyness whatsoever. It's people's prudish, 'post-annexation' influenced minds  today that struggle with Guru ji's straightforwardness in addressing this issue. 

 

This is real life we have to deal with. 

[jkvlondon]

13 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Well, it looks like we've been told to grasp it for our own protection. And (I'm not making this personal towards you), I do believe it is simple mindedness. That argument can not be used because we're pretty much guaranteeing more of the same from predators if we accept it. A theme of CP clearly seems to be "know the actions, tactics and minds of your enemies".

You can't transpose a limiting conception on Guru ji (who was infinite) like that I believe. CP clearly shows that they had no qualms about getting straight to the heart of the matter with absolutely no coyness whatsoever. It's people's prudish, 'post-annexation' influenced minds  today that struggle with Guru ji's straightforwardness in addressing this issue. 

 

This is real life we have to deal with. 

that is why it is so dangerous to be a sikh now because victorian biblical prudishness has changed that 'face the truth, reality is just THIS' of the Gurus to 'ooo don't talk about anything , that is shameful, dirty'  thus disarming them from a self-preservation angle . 

 

[dallysingh101]

1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

that is why it is so dangerous to be a sikh now because victorian biblical prudishness has changed that 'face the truth, reality is just THIS' of the Gurus to 'ooo don't talk about anything , that is shameful, dirty'  thus disarming them from a self-preservation angle . 

 

I hear you, but don't tell me that things are not rapidly changing on that front as we speak! lol

There is a movement away from that victorian, prudish jibberish, but it's a complex situation where colonialists cleverly merged aspects of Sikh identity with their own political buckwaas and successfully sold it to the rural masses in various ways, especially along certain caste lines. The other end of the spectrum with amorphous "anything goes" folk 'religious' practices isn't any better.

How can you deny people are getting clued up like never before? 

We've got brothers all over Sikh TV channels spreading awareness, people have even managed to twist the mainstream media to get our views out. It gets discussed in at least some Gurdwaras now. People discuss and are aware of CP like never before in my lifetime. 

From my perspective, things have never been better - although a lot more needs to be done obviously, and the momentum that has been built up over the decades needs to continue and grow. 

[puzzled]

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

yeah I admit I have a massive problem doubting that a Sikh who had amrit in that era could fall so far, maybe because I believe that if Guru ji can give brahamgian just with a glance/touch that amrit made by his panj could allow that mental state to occur , I can't doubt Guru ji , ever

i just read the charitar again and it starts of describing how sikhs from all over used to come to anandpur sahib to seek blessings. and then it says that a married woman (anoop kaur) came to anandpur sahib. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:45 AM, dallysingh101 said:

Your making the same mistake Bhai Gurdas did when he thought that he was automatically infallible due to Guru ji's unwavering grace. Remember the sakhi about bhai sahib going to Afghanistan/Iraq(?) to buy horses and getting conned and then avoiding Guru sahib out of shame and then amending the vaar that made such a bold supposition? I don't think we ever lose that capacity to falter, it's the nit jungh against it that is the battle. 

Just to nitpick, it was actually bhai gurdaas jis faith in himself that made him waver. His tuk said, If the guru tests his sikh, a sikh should not waver.

After his tribulations and forgiveness by the the guru, he changed it to If the Guru tests a sikh, what can the poor sikh do? 

But that is a mindset, the sikhs have lost. We used to say only Guruji knows about any intrepretation of bani. As for Babas and gursikhs,.people were inspired by them but knew Bhulan andar sabko, abhul guru kartaar. And sikhs used to have their own panchait to give tankhaah and other punishments to each other.