Can Indians ever get past idolatry

[MisterrSingh 4,783]

The underlying Indian mentality will never change. They crave the impulse to worship something whatever it may be. They cannot deal with internalising that worship by channelling it towards venerating an abstract concept such as a formless force. They feel there needs to be a physical representation of it before their eyes. Literal minds. It's not helped by the concession in Sikh philosophy that Sargun worship is permissable which kind of contradicts the opposing "no idolatry" edict, because Sargun can be extended to worshipping anything with physical attributes as a manifestation of the Nirgun, and the vast majority will never transcend the Sargun mindset.

[puzzled 3,964]

Does anyone's family believe in baba Balak Nath? Both my families do! I've been to his shrine once, it's high up in the mountains in Himachal Pradesh.

What do you think of baba Balak Nath? Hes quite a popular deity in Punjab.

Does any Sikh literature mention him? Or has a sant brahm gyani spoken about him ? 

[jkvlondon 5,663]

1 hour ago, puzzled said:

Does anyone's family believe in baba Balak Nath? Both my families do! I've been to his shrine once, it's high up in the mountains in Himachal Pradesh.

What do you think of baba Balak Nath? Hes quite a popular deity in Punjab.

Does any Sikh literature mention him? Or has a sant brahm gyani spoken about him ? 

since he follows Nath sampardya  Guru Nanak Dev ji already had charcha with Gorakh Nath so it is all irrelevant to us since they had to be corrected by Guru ji .

 

http://www.discoversikhism.com/sikh_gurus/guru_nanak_gorakhmata.html

[NaamTiharoJoJape 174]

1 hour ago, puzzled said:

Does anyone's family believe in baba Balak Nath? Both my families do! I've been to his shrine once, it's high up in the mountains in Himachal Pradesh.

What do you think of baba Balak Nath? Hes quite a popular deity in Punjab.

Does any Sikh literature mention him? Or has a sant brahm gyani spoken about him ? 

i dont know much about baba balak nath

what is sangat's thoughts on families having sharda in sant deras

my nanke (mom's side) are into some jagahs

my nanaji's great grandfather (shyam singh if I remember) served in the same platoon (British Indian army) as sant hari singh kaharpuri

sant hari singh laid foundation of the old house we still have back in India after we moved to the new village from 1947

I am not too sure about sant hari singh kaharpuri but know he did panthic sewa in building many historic gurudwaras, one of which is manji sahib (where our family treats like a jathera jagah along with 'mai dian kangan' which I believe might be bhai manj ji's resting place) and he also helped build and was entrusted with the sewa of thakt sri kesgarh sahib in 1935 I believe 

other than that, I dont think even the internet offers much other than the ffact that he came from hoti mardane sampardayi (which I think is from where sant jwala singh harkowal and sant harnaam singh jain came from; we are familiar with jain wale but not as sharda as with kaharpur dera) 

I've been there once (kaharpur) when I was 12, and I think the current mukhi's name is baba sadhu singh

he seemed good, from what I have heard from my family is that he doesnt have sangat with people but  often stands across the wall conversing with the sangat as he stay away from the bibian for the most part (as was case with sant bhindranwale who used move around his teer if a bibi would do matha tek) but they have sat with us

but even with all this jagahs, there are some slightly off things like how the first milk of a "katti" would always be offered at "mai dian kangan", my mom tells me that her grandmother told her that she once decided to give the first milk to the jagah and she wanted to churn butter out of it but it went black or something so then they became more vigilant on this "tradition" 

from my dad's side, there is this ancestral shaheed's place we go to thats all I know of for that and that my dadi used to do "sukhna sukh" at that place 

[intrigued 643]

Many Sants help Sikhs become closer to there Guru so imo they are overall good

[NaamTiharoJoJape 174]

4 minutes ago, intrigued said:

Many Sants help Sikhs become closer to there Guru so imo they are overall good

what about the stuff people do  like "sukhna sukhi" or offering the first milk from a adolescant cattle to a specific jagah 

also,  i forgot but there is a mai sudi jagah (someone I forgot totally about, dont really know much) right next to our place in nanke, and they go there and believe in them 

recently there has been a balmiki mandir that opened up in the neighborhood but its recent and we dont go there, its mostly the hindu/bhaiye immigrants who built it 

[intrigued 643]

4 minutes ago, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

what about the stuff people do  like "sukhna sukhi" or offering the first milk from a adolescant cattle to a specific jagah 

I dont really know what that is but if they are rituals i dont think it would be recommended by Sikhs or the sants for that matter

[NaamTiharoJoJape 174]

On 4/20/2021 at 10:40 PM, Jai Tegang! said:

Society is generally edging towards atheism with each generation going through the western education system and culture. Apart from the religious fringe (of which many of us on this forum are a member of) you will be lucky to find people keeping even a vague connection to their religion. If people are still venerating the painted depictions of Guru Sahibaan, consider it a blessing, imo. Many young people (in the west) do not even respect these paintings, forget about the real Guru.

In a vast many Punjabi homes of the future, you will not find paintings of Guru sahibaan or even the dhup or jot lightings. The next generation will consist of a super observant minority with a vast majority only being ethnically sikh, if even that. Along with shunning the tombs and jagah from back in the villages of their parents, they will most likely shun religion altogether.

I am not sure which is worse and I kind of disagree

an adulterated version of sikhi can be worse than a sikhi where numbers aren't growing

I feel like times of high turbulance have been the height of sikhi compared to times of "peace, prosperity"(jhujaroo khalsa of 18th century, kharkus of 80s/90s) meanwhile sikhi has declined and been highly adulterated during the rest of history (maharaja ranjit singh reign, biritsh raj)

[puzzled 3,964]

26 minutes ago, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

i dont know much about baba balak nath

what is sangat's thoughts on families having sharda in sant deras

my nanke (mom's side) are into some jagahs

my nanaji's great grandfather (shyam singh if I remember) served in the same platoon (British Indian army) as sant hari singh kaharpuri

sant hari singh laid foundation of the old house we still have back in India after we moved to the new village from 1947

I am not too sure about sant hari singh kaharpuri but know he did panthic sewa in building many historic gurudwaras, one of which is manji sahib (where our family treats like a jathera jagah along with 'mai dian kangan' which I believe might be bhai manj ji's resting place) and he also helped build and was entrusted with the sewa of thakt sri kesgarh sahib in 1935 I believe 

other than that, I dont think even the internet offers much other than the ffact that he came from hoti mardane sampardayi (which I think is from where sant jwala singh harkowal and sant harnaam singh jain came from; we are familiar with jain wale but not as sharda as with kaharpur dera) 

I've been there once (kaharpur) when I was 12, and I think the current mukhi's name is baba sadhu singh

he seemed good, from what I have heard from my family is that he doesnt have sangat with people but  often stands across the wall conversing with the sangat as he stay away from the bibian for the most part (as was case with sant bhindranwale who used move around his teer if a bibi would do matha tek) but they have sat with us

but even with all this jagahs, there are some slightly off things like how the first milk of a "katti" would always be offered at "mai dian kangan", my mom tells me that her grandmother told her that she once decided to give the first milk to the jagah and she wanted to churn butter out of it but it went black or something so then they became more vigilant on this "tradition" 

from my dad's side, there is this ancestral shaheed's place we go to thats all I know of for that and that my dadi used to do "sukhna sukh" at that place 

But that's basically tomb worshipping. Jagga is basically a tomb or "resting place" for the soul.

Both my fathers side and mothers side worship an ancestral tomb, in fact that's their main belief. They light a diva there every Sunday, whenever its a wedding they place a wedding card in the tomb, so they basically are inviting the dead relative! in winter they wrap the tomb up with a blanket etc    

We have a photograph of the tomb from my fathers family and my dad lights diva in from of the photo every Sunday and does tuf.

Its scary, because I've heard some terrifying stories of what happens if you don't serve the jagga! 

Once you start serving these places they demand worship!

But that's basically tomb/grave worshipping. 

 

Yeah its the same at Baba Balak Naths jagga as well. The actual cave that he used to meditate in, no woman is allowed to go near it. We were allowed to do matha tek in the cave thing where he did tapasya, while my cousin sister had to stand on this balcony/bridge kind of thing, around 8 meters away and do matha tek from there. I understand why though, Baba Balak Nath was a Brahmchari so he stayed away from women, so to respect the place where he did tapasya women aren't allowed to get close.

 

 

 

[NaamTiharoJoJape 174]

1 minute ago, puzzled said:

But that's basically tomb worshipping. Jagga is basically a tomb or "resting place" for the soul.

Both my fathers side and mothers side worship an ancestral tomb, in fact that's their main belief. They light a diva there every Sunday, whenever its a wedding they place a wedding card in the tomb, so they basically are inviting the dead relative! in winter they wrap the tomb up with a blanket etc    

We have a photograph of the tomb from my fathers family and my dad lights diva in from of the photo every Sunday and does tuf.

Its scary, because I've heard some terrifying stories of what happens if you don't serve the jagga! 

Once you start serving these places they demand worship!

But that's basically tomb/grave worshipping. 

 

Yeah its the same at Baba Balak Naths jagga as well. The actual cave that he used to meditate in, no woman is allowed to go near it. We were allowed to do matha tek in the cave thing where he did tapasya, while my cousin sister had to stand on this balcony/bridge kind of thing, around 8 meters away and do matha tek from there. I understand why though, Baba Balak Nath was a Brahmchari so he stayed away from women, so to respect the place where he did tapasya women aren't allowed to get close.

 

 

 

oh okay now I remember a bit bout baba balak nath

he is very famous yes I heard about women not being allowed to gi in

dont know bout the rest 

women are allowed at kaharpur gurudwara, but baba ji doesnt sit in sangat with them when they outside to meet him, but stands across a wall from where he talks (on the other side there is a mango tree my nanaji tells stories bout from his youth lol) , but they sat with us since he is familiar with us 

yes basically tomb worshipping, at mai dian kangan i think, we did matha tek to i think the balan of bhai manj (am not sure, because I think when he fell in the well or something like that might have been at amritsar instead so it makes sense for the balan to be used in langar over there) 

beside that area is guru maharaj vrajman as well (as well as downstairs)

i have very faint memories so am not sure entirely 

[puzzled 3,964]

14 minutes ago, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

oh okay now I remember a bit bout baba balak nath

he is very famous yes I heard about women not being allowed to gi in

dont know bout the rest 

women are allowed at kaharpur gurudwara, but baba ji doesnt sit in sangat with them when they outside to meet him, but stands across a wall from where he talks (on the other side there is a mango tree my nanaji tells stories bout from his youth lol) , but they sat with us since he is familiar with us 

yes basically tomb worshipping, at mai dian kangan i think, we did matha tek to i think the balan of bhai manj (am not sure, because I think when he fell in the well or something like that might have been at amritsar instead so it makes sense for the balan to be used in langar over there) 

beside that area is guru maharaj vrajman as well (as well as downstairs)

i have very faint memories so am not sure entirely 

Yeah, I don't know that much about baba Balak Nath. As a boy basically lived in an old ladies house who he treated like a mother. He used to look after her cows etc  but the cows used to eat the crops of other farmers and they would always complain. The lady that Baba Balak Nath lived with wasn't a very kind or motherly lady! one day the farmers came and complained to her how baba Balak Nath always lets her cows into their fields and eat their crops. The lady then got very angry with baba Balak Nath and told him he is ungrateful etc, He then said he will leave her and never bother her again, she then said first pay me back all the years I made roti for you!  He then performed a miracle and all these rotts(sweet bread) started falling from a tree. She then realized that he was no ordinary kid and begged him to stay but he refused and went off! apparently she spent the rest of her life looking for him but never found him.

That's all I know ... 

I have no idea how he ended up becoming so popular in Punjab ... 

[NaamTiharoJoJape 174]

7 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Yeah, I don't know that much about baba Balak Nath. As a boy basically lived in an old ladies house who he treated like a mother. He used to look after her cows etc  but the cows used to eat the crops of other farmers and they would always complain. The lady that Baba Balak Nath lived with wasn't a very kind or motherly lady! one day the farmers came and complained to her how baba Balak Nath always lets her cows into their fields and eat their crops. The lady then got very angry with baba Balak Nath and told him he is ungrateful etc, He then said he will leave her and never bother her again, she then said first pay me back all the years I made roti for you!  He then performed a miracle and all these rotts(sweet bread) started falling from a tree. She then realized that he was no ordinary kid and begged him to stay but he refused and went off! apparently she spent the rest of her life looking for him but never found him.

That's all I know ... 

I have no idea how he ended up becoming so popular in Punjab ... 

maybe due to proximity like naina devi mandir

is his place in jammu or himachal, or further away in lahaul/spiti or uttarakhand

[intrigued 643]

43 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Its scary, because I've heard some terrifying stories of what happens if you don't serve the jagga! 

Once you start serving these places they demand worship!

Do you guys think that fear is a factor in why they are still practicing idolatry?

If Sikhs as a whole know it is wrong why do we keep on doing it?

[puzzled 3,964]

1 minute ago, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

maybe due to proximity like naina devi mandir

is his place in jammu or himachal, or further away in lahaul/spiti or uttarakhand

In Himachal Pradesh. 

Himachal Pradesh is very beautiful. The highlight of my trip was a monkey turning the tap and then drinking water! it happened right before me lol   he literally bounced onto the ground, turned the tap and then stuck his face under the water and had a drink, lol.  

[NaamTiharoJoJape 174]

1 minute ago, puzzled said:

In Himachal Pradesh. 

Himachal Pradesh is very beautiful. The highlight of my trip was a monkey turning the tap and then drinking water! it happened right before me lol   he literally bounced onto the ground, turned the tap and then stuck his face under the water and had a drink, lol.  

so it was practically punjab at one point 

its literally on border between bilaspur and hamirpur (next to nawanshahr/hoshiarpur)

bilaspur was kahlur back in guru sahibs day, whose raja bhim chand attacked guru sahib and lead the other pahari rajay