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Anyone claiming that the Sikhs started the partition violence and the Muslims were just on the receiving end is either grossly ignorant or someone with an agenda. You said that you will not challenge my assertion so I urge you to read the latest book by Istiaq Ahmed, Punjab bloodied and partitioned and his presentation at Lund university. The link is here-; http://www.sasnet.lu...leansing-punjab No Sikhs have ever claimed that their leaders or many Sikhs in general acted like Angels during partition, but the Sikh violence was the violence of a minority which had lost its political objective and was fighting to ensure the resettlement of half of their population who were refugees from West Punjab. The violence of the Muslims was the violence of those who had achieved their political objective and yet still wanted to wipe out a minority from their midst. I don't know whether you can appreciate the difference but it is there. As Chatanga wrote, we lost our best lands and all our historic Gurdwaras. In the central districts of Punjab, every nook and corner has some association with Sikh history. These districts were the ones that our Gurus nurtured Sikhi in and the ones which formed the backbone of the Sikh empire. No doubt on your side attempts are being made to not publicise the Sikh association but it is there for anyone who is keen to find the truth to see. Even many Pakistani scholars are unaware of what an attachment that land has for Sikhs and deeply we felt it's loss. The only way that I can give you an example is how you would feel if Mecca and Medina were under the control of the Christian or the Jews? Obviously Sikhs hope for good relations between India and Pakistan and in future between Khalistan and Pakistan. Only a few fools who are under the control of Indian government want the relations to be worst. It was the Sikhs through the Nankana Sahib Foundation in 1978 and 1979 that did the leg work to ensure that Sikh pilgrims could go on yatras to Pakistan. If you ever see any footage of the ridiculous tamasha that takes place every evening the border is closed at wagha-Attari you will note that very few Sikhs will be seen jingoisticly shouting slogans such as Hindustan Zindabad. It is mostly the urban Hindus and Indian tourists who make a point of showing their nationalistic zeal on these occasions. Yet, if there was a war there, these fools would be the first to flee across the Jamna! As for how and when your family might converted to Islam, no one apart from your elders or if you have them their Mirasis would be able to give you the right answer. I have noted that 100% of Pakistani will always note that their ancestors were converted by the Sufis. It's almost as if there was no Islamic invasions and the Turk and Afghan invaders never existed. You should read some of the writings of the Muslims from that time about how the survivors of the battles between the Muslims and Hindus were given the choice of Islam or death. Many chose Islam. As for the Sufi contribution, no doubt they propogated Islam and some Hindus especially the lower castes would have gone over to Islam, but the vast majority were forcibly converted. If you look at the Sufis, there were probably more Sufis in East Punjab than in West Punjab yet the Hindus in West Punjab were the ones that converted to Islam whilst the ones in East Punjab either remained Hindus, became Sultanis or converted to Sikhism. If anything the wholescale conversion to Islam that you claim for the Sufis should have occurred in East Punjab rather than West Punjab. The influence of the Sufis in East Punjab was limited to having Hindu followers who became known as Sultanis which was a half way house between Hinduism and Islam. How is it that the Sufis were able to convert en masse in West Punjab whilst they could only make little headway in East Punjab and even that was negated when these Sultanis became Sikhs during the times of the Gurus and after. The reason for believing that conversion was forcible is because as someone pointed out about 70% of the Rajputs of Punjab were Muslims. Their conversion was almost universal from Rawalpindi to Jalandhar. How is it that a caste such as that which had a high position in the Hindu caste system become Muslim when there was really nothing to be gained from becoming Muslim. The case is made stronger given that many of the Rajputs of Hoshiarpur who lived on the plain became Muslims but the ones in the Hills and Himachal were strongly Hindu. They were so strongly Hindu that they fought against Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa because of the Khalsa's anti-caste character. How is it that the same caste in Himachal are fanatic Hindus and the ones on the plains left their high caste origin behind and joined a casteless Islam from which they had nothing to gain? The only reason was that Muslim political influence was never strong in the hills and any concerted campaign to forcibly convert requires the use of superior power in the first instance to convert by force and then a strong presence for many years to stop those forcibly converted from going back to their old religion. The Rajputs were the soldier class in Punjab at the time of the Muslims invasions so they were the ones who would have been defeated and then offered Islam or death.

If we started believing Auzer, I guess we will have to quit believing the bachans of Bhai Gurdas ji, Kavi Santokh Singh ji, Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale. Auzer, you may have read 200 books, researched all your life, good for you. But since you're not ready to accept what we've been saying based on the recorded history from just 300 years ago by Sikhs who were (and we look upon them as) enlightened blessed personalities, we are under no obligation to accept a 1400 year old account from yourself which God knows has been distorted how many times.

In regards to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, his grand father or maybe great grand father is from Afghanistan and were ethnic Hazaras. His people were persecuted in Afghanistan because of which a great many of them had settled in India at the time. Nusrat's family had settled in Jalandhar. That's why Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan sort of had that chinese look to his eyes.

Well we are from "Jalandar" .... There was a village known as "Uggii" in Jalandar , Indian Punjab. My family is from there... And well...I don't know the history...I only know uptil my great grandfather and they were Muslims...before that..We do have alot of stories but no picture , or any record... lol... But even if you wanted to find the 'hindu-link' of my ancestory...I guess you'd have to go centuries back into the history.....It (conversion) probably happened probably before the birth of Guru Nanak ji.... And no , I'm not Rajput.... I'm something along the lines of "Arayin" ... I don't know if Indian Punjab has this caste etc? Do you know about Arayin caste? We apparently eat alot of onion hahah....Well , atleast thats what the jokes about Arayin say....

I don't think one can blame the modern Pakistanis for the atrocities committed by the Mughals. One should be judged on their own merit not based on what religion or country they belong to. You will find good and bad people in all faiths. Most of the Pakistanis I have met are good people. One of my closest friends is a Muslim. It doesn't make sense to paint an entire people with the same brush. This isn't what our Gurus taught us. I read a Punjabi book about 2 years ago Guru Gobind Singh Jee de Mussalmaan Shardaloo. That book mentioned so many Muslim shardhaloos of Gurus Ji who risked their lives for Guru Jee in the most difficult of times. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, and it's their actions that determine if they are good or bad.

Needs to have a great RPM Ratio... Roti per minute ratio!! Average would be making 3 rotiya per minute

Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!! Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! found this on some forum a while ago.... “Couple of helpful hints which have been told by a few friends, I don’t imply using any/few/all of these, but these have been known to have helped. Feel free to add or delete any of them: 1) Basic Thumb Rule: Early to bed ~~ E arly to rise 2) Have a gap between dinner/supper and bedtime – fill the gap with a little walk – and at actual bedtime drink 2-3 cups of water 3) Use alarm clocks/radio/or cassette alarm (which shall play simran even while you are half awake) Ok ok now the real tips for Naam jaap: Forwarding you tips for Naam jap sent by a Gurmukh Rooh. Some found it useful, someone else may also… Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Jap naam at amrit vela no matter what!!!!! Amrit vela is between 12:30 am and sunrise. Please note amrit vela is not effective unless the body is well rested. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Jap Naam at night before sleeping. It is very important to do this. Naam (at first) does the work of a cleanser (then it fills one with bliss). Cleansing the mind at night it extremely important. A clean mind sleeps more deeply and wakes up more alert. The precious amrit vela then is more effective, since much of the work has already been done at night and in sleep, since a naam-ed out mind will jap naam during sleep too! Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Try to wake up without the alarm. This will only happen via persistant ardaas to the Guru. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Try to divide up the day. For example, wake up at amrit vela. Do simran and nitnem and then take a short nap before the day starts. This prevents fatigue during the day. And psychologically, a tired body can wake up more easily if it knows it can go back to sleep. The morning nap should not exceed 1.5 hours. If it does, the body thinks it is night time and usually results in a dull day. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Keep some water besides the bed. (This has no spiritual significance, but it saves the trip to the kitchen during the precious amrit vela hours. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru When the body first wakes, *immediately* say Waheguru with tongue or mind – depending on the individual’s naam state. Do not wait until ishnaan to jap naam. Do not wait to tie loosened dastar or keski or hair before japping naam. Sit up and without even drinking the water beside the bed, jap naam deeply. Only after a few seconds/minutes or hours when the mind is somewhat settled, venture out to do the necessary chores. (The misconception that naam cannout be japped without first doing ishnaan is, well, just that – a misconception. Naam *is* ishnaan!) Waheguru ~~ Waheguru At first jap naam loudly, then with kirpa and practice, the naam can be japped softly or completely internally. The guru usually gives internal instructions or arranges meetings with naami gursikhs at appropriate time. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Divide up naam time. It is extremely hard to sit for three hours of naam during early stages, but it is possible to jap naam for three hours if it is done over breaks. Jap naam before ishnaan. Jap naam after ishnaan. Jap naam during lunch breaks. Jap naam during traffic jams. Jap naam when driving. Jap naam. Jap naam. Jap naam. Jap naam. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Mix gurmanter with mool manter. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru If mind has wandered off, bring it back by reciting gurbaNi. Refrain from gossip and slander. This keeps the mind clean and it can more easily focus on naam. (The most common response to “Do not slander Bhai X jee” is “I am not slandering Bhai X Jee, I am just telling the truth.” A very practical defin ition of slander is: the things that cannot be said in front of Bhai X jee are slander). For that reason avoid the company of the people who spend more time in slandering. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Avoid TV or movies of being a news junkie. Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Just start simraning Waheguru ~~ Waheguru Waheguru ~~ Waheguru"

how do you know sri chand were blue ?? have you met them.........photo can be drawn by anyone nobody will say anything. If you look at the picture of Guru Gobind Singh Ji giving darshan to a hindu pandit as Ram Chandra he is depicted as blue skinned. Yet typical pictures of Ram are of fair skin. Older pictures are that he was blue. its really irrelevant. Can you save these sort of post for www.Tapoban.org site LOL

No you did not understand what i would admit to being wrong. The tuk Hari SIngh Randhawa presented to back up Satguru started Nirmal Samprada is a distortion of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars as Sant ji points out that the tuk is calling the Khalsa Panth as the Nirmal Panth. The historical arth have been done correctly by Sant ji. Anything beyond this is a distortion of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. Your other points will be answered later. Don't have the time right now to go through them.

Your argument is trying to scare a person in believing their are different reasons to take up udasi. I can switch this very easily on you and say do you really think Satguru just put on a Muslim blue garb to leave behind his wife and children to teach Muslims in Mecca. Remember Mecca is much further and the journey was much longer. So there must be different reasons why he went to Mecca. Just like you and Hari Singh Randhawa i can make up theories saying......ooooo Satguru didn't just dress up as a Muslim, but was a Muslim. Then to add reason to my arguement i can say Muslim means to completely submit to Allah. Therefore Satguru was a Muslim of the Koran because he completely submit to Allah (call God whatever you want, there is only one) and the Koran teaches to completely submit to Allah. So Benti, leave your scare tactics out of this discussion. Maybe these scare tactics work with other Sikhs, but they won't work here. I am satisfied with Sant ji's answer. Satguru went out to teach Gurmat as udasis were practicing and teaching manmat to others (same goes for Muslims). I know you are not satisfied because then Hari SIngh Randhawa would be proven wrong. I have no desire to prove anyone wrong or prove them right. I accept Sant ji as a true teacher of Gurbani. If you don't that is your choice and wish.

Again listen to the katha the guy was asking Satguru if he was a yogi etc and Sant ji is doing the historical arth along with the spiritual arth. The fact of the matter is Satguru gave a spiritual answer, where he says my jeevan is udasi, yogi etc (i'm the lotus; householder and udasi at the same time). So the historical part is when the guy is asking who Satguru is in garb, a yogi udasi etc. To this historical reference Satguru gives a spiritual answer, which Sant ji tells us. No it can't because Sant ji in the same Vaar 1 in a different pauri explains that Satguru in the historical arth took off the udasi garb just like how it put on the Muslim blue garb to go to Mecca. So either you accept Sant ji's historical arth or you say Sant ji is wrong and Hari Singh Randhawa is right. You can't have it both ways.

Vah speaking of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan:

I agree in western countries - sikh women need to follow somewhat western standards...not all sikh women can afford not to work, give up work in their career jobs for part time jobs, house hold wife...its all about balance..i be the last person to blindly follow punjabi tribalism its about blending best of both worlds- eastern and western..!! But on top of all that remains anand karaj commitments and vows..that should be center and priority in gursikh marriage..if anand karaj vows become centralized for both partners all the above nitty gitty details /duty/chores becomes seamless for both parties without any squabbles or fight/micro management...life becomes heaven on earth..!! :lol2:

6 minutes ^^ "Je kisse izzat daar purakh di besti karni ohnooo keho "sardara tu ta bohut changa teri tan jinni vadiyayeee par teri alaud bardi nakkami jamm payi, teri alaud ni suddar sakki, bas ohdi besti kar ditti" meaning "If you want to disgrace an honorable individual, tell him "Oh Sardara, you are very great and whatever good there is applies to you, but your kids are worthless and they couldn't be disciplined", you just disgraced him" which is why I said this: "It's important to note that Guru Har Rai Ji disowned his elder son, Ram Rai, for distorting bani to please Aurangzeb. There's a reason why Gurtagaddi was passed to Guru Angad Dev Ji." I am no Giani ji, just an average Sikh so I can't explain the Gurbani, but I think it is relevant and sheds light here.

The way I see it and believe is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji didn't start Udasis as Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaara say something completely different. Another point is that Giani Hari Singh Randhawe says something that contradicts Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale in his katha of what Nirmal Panth is. A point I made in the last topic is this: My personal take is I will respect Baba Sri Chand, but I will see the truth for what it is and won't accept bending of the truth. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe said that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the Udasian da Panth, but this is incorrect and Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Varan say otherwise and so does Bhatt Satta and Balavand bani from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Also, I believe that Nirmal Panth is no more than the Khalsa Panth, not a separate entity as Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale has said in the katha.

Men are just as important, if not more important in raising their kids. Woman and men are inherently different but both men and woman have both feminine and male traits and Gurbani talks about this as well. No balance is attained by what you're talking about N30Singh ji. If a Singhni says you should wash the dishes and she works just as hard as you, blackmail is wrong but simply talking about it and splitting the chores isn't a bad thing at all. Now a days you can have both husband and wife be doctors and then how can only a bibi be the one to do the cooking and raising the kids? Punjabi puratan mindset has survived today and woman are still suppressed in India just as female infanticide occurs although the Sikh Gurus said not to even associate with someone who does such an act. Woman have the power to empower themselves and break free from the shackles that a patriarchal society has set for them and in effect bring peace to the planet (Sikhi says this as well). The current Punjabi system isn't a balance and is a backward bahmanvaad nonsense system designed to oppress woman. To say feminism is a western concept is just a facade to cover gender discrimination because it's Sikhi that first gave equal rights to woman, not the western world. In USA it wasn't up until the 20s or so until woman got the right to vote. Also, there's nothing wrong with a man who cooks and is also the bread winner and Sikhi encourages woman to take up arms and become shastardharee and pursue education and empower themselves in this world. I talked with a kid who follows dhumma/badals like it's some cult and he claimed that because of puratan maryada Sikh woman can't do kirtan in Harmandir Sahib.

Try a bigger shaped roti (wrap style) with saabje of your choice (few spoons only) in the middle with sources of your choice on the top followed with any salad on top. Then wrap the roti up like a wrap. It's so yummy

You've reminded me, I need to get back into tofu again. It tastes of absolutely nothing but I needs me protein!

4. YOU WROTE: Nirmal Panth is first mentioned at 4:50 to 6:00. Here Sant ji refers to Sikhi as the Nirmal Panth which Satguru started and where Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj was the second Guru of this Nirmal Panth. In the second version of the above Katha Sant ji makes it even more clear that Satguru is refering to the Khalsa Panth, by saying in farsi this Panth is called Khalsa Panth. But if you listen to Hari Singh Randhawa he distorts Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars and says Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj started the Nirmal Samprada. This is wrong because the Nirmal Samprada, which Hari Singh is refering to, was started by Bhai Daya Singh ji. Then again Hari Singh to confuse the sangat says in the 10th form Satguru increased this Nirmal Panth. correct me if i am but i think you accept that you was wrong on this, also this has nothing to do with your thread title so lets ignore this. There is no matbhed on this question evrybody accepts that Guru Gobind Singh sent 5 singhs to go to Haridvar and when they cane back Guru Sahib said to them to start your parchar jathebandi. 5. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa also says the Gurus did puja of Sri Chand. Correct me if im wrong and misheard. This is a huge insult to the Gurus by Hari Singh Randhawa. What is Hari Singh’s evidence for this, what is his source? Surely not Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars or Gurbani because both sources tell us that Sri Chand went against Satguru and the former source tells us that Sri Chand could not find liberation. Your statement above really shows how little knowledge of sikh history you have. 1. Guru Ramdas with his beard kneeled low and wiped the feet of Sri Chand. 2. Sri Chand was requested to add to his fathers scriptures in Sukhmani Sahib. He never added anything of his own he just repeat mool mantar. 3. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji gave their own child to him for the propogation of ther Udasi Samparda. 4. As seen in the JPEG picture i attched before Baba Sri Chand were respected in Sikhism during the Guru's times. 5. To think or believe that Sri Chand didn't achieve mukhti to me this is just so hilarious. Baba Sri were the most highest of highest tapasvee saints. Baba Sri Chand went san deh to sachkhand. Baba Ji took their own physical body with them, they didnt leave their physical body behind. Mukhti was like a little ant roaming around infront of baba sri chand. Again i cant emphasize howe much bhagt they did. Go to Gurdwara Baath Sahib in faridkot district, here babji did 62 years bagti. Baba Ji went to Sachkhan at the ripe age of 152 years. I dont know how people can even dare to think or write that Baba Ji didnt achieve mukhti. 6. YOU WROTE: Does Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars or Gurbani say anywhere that Satguru started udasi or was a udasi? From Sant Ji’s katha, he has made it clear this was not the case at all. Infact Gurbani give us the explanation of what a Udasi and householder is in this Shabad: Im sure historical granths will clear this point in favour of Giani Hari Singh. Chatanga states there is reference in soraj prakash. i will also reserach into historical books . SO FROM MY ARGUEMENT ABOVE I TOTALLY REFUTE YOUR ARGUEMENTS AND AGREE WITH GIANI HARI SINGH THAT GURU JI STARTED THE UDASI SAMPARDA AS THE GURU'S STARTED ALL OTHER SAMPARDAS ASWELL AND ALSO CREATED THE BIGGEST SAMPARDA IE THE KHALSA BROTHERHOOD.

Gelatin is most certainly derived from verious animal by-products. It is not vegetarian friendly.

3: YOU WROTE :Listening to this katha Sant ji says that Satguru adorned the udasi garb to teach the udasis what it really means to be an udasi. Sant ji gives the example of how Satguru went to Mecca and Satguru adorned the blue garb. Just because Satguru adorned the blue garb of the Muslims doesn’t mean Satguru became a Muslim or started the Muslim religion. here Sant Gurbachan Singh have made one valid point but that doesn't mean that this is the only point. Do you really think that Guru Sahib left Kartarpur and sent his wife to her fathers home and left his children behind and took on the Udasi Pekh just to teach Udasi's the correct way to be Udas?? No Guru Sahib had other reasons why he did 4 udasia such as to do the kalyaan of sansar and to preach the Gurmat. Guru Sahib came to save us from Kaljug - Kal Taran Gur Nanak Aiyea ( Bhai Gurdas). So what you are saying here is not the only point there are other points which can support what Giani Hari Singh is saying in relation to the the // Baba Bekh Bania Udasee Ki reet chalyee.

Guru Sahib wrote Gurbani in such a dynamic way it is very deep and has many different attributing meanings such a vyakarn arth can be different to antrreev arth etc. Heres my concise arguement in favour of Giani Hari Singh 1. YOU WROTE: First Hari Singh Randhawa says this tuk to back up his theory that Satguru started Udasis: gur bcnI bwhir Gir eyko nwnku BieAw audwsI ]5]11] okay i accept that the mukh arth are spiritual arth as Baba Gurbachan Singh has relayed. However it is acceptable to use this as historical arth in an argument postulating that Guru Nanak Ji started Udasi. For example in Dasam Darbar i think its Chandi Ki // Guru Sahib states - Nirbau Bei Nihanga. Now the spiritual arth would be that "they became fearless and without pride." However if you look at the arth from a Sikh History perspective then the arth would become the "nihangs became fearless" or another interpretation " fearless makes you a nihang". Here Nihang refers to the Nihang samparda. So do you see the dynamics of Gurbani. All the arth are acceptable. Therefore Giani Hari Singh use of his first point is still aceptable, whether one diagree's this is his own choice but as a vidvaan's arguement it is acceptable. 2. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa, also uses the following tuk to back up his claim: bwby ByK bxwieAw audwsI kI rIiq clweI] my arguement in point 1 also applies to this number 2 so hence he is right to say this aswell.

I didn't say i had left Sikh Dharma.....just the Adharma of religion :cool2:

Those lost in You need no cup for intoxication, For those thirsting for Your sight, the sweetness of wine has no relish.

They keep running around in circles presenting the same tuk of Bhai Gurdas ji's pauri, which Sant ji has responded to in another pauri. Singh maybe you can explain this to them.

This is a shame that people leave out key information from Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Maharaj katha and only present what supports their side. So Sant ji starts the sakhi at 6 minutes into the katha. If you listen carefully you will hear Sant ji say that Giani Gian Singh says that after Satguru completing 16 Ashtapadee, Satguru went to Sri Chand to ask him to say some Bani as you are the older sons of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj................. BUT then you also hear Sant ji say that Samprada say the sakhi in this way (pointing out they have a different version). Here the samprada says that Sri Chand went to Amritsar to get darshan of Amritsar. No where does Sant ji say that Sri Chand went to get Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj darshan. When Sri Chand saw something was going on at Amritsar then he went over and did darshan of Satguru. As Sri Chand is the older son of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj, Satguru recognized Sri Chand and met him with love and then got him to sit down. Here Sri Chand sat down and asked satguru was doing. And the sakhi continues. Great this sakhi has been presented on this topic. However what does this sakhi say about who started udasis? The Sakhi says abosulately nothing and doesn't add to the thread. I could very easily present Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars where Sant ji says that Sri Chand did not recieve mukti. And this Vaar would not directly add to the thread on who started udasis. I think some need to brush up on their research skills on how to determine if a certain piece of information is relevant to a certain topic like this topic. Also which sakhi did Sant ji say was true from the two? Sant ji didn't say anything. Just presented both versions. I know its hard for some to stay on Sant ji's word as Sant ji said nothing more than the two versions, but try it once maybe there will be peace for you.

Bro, just the history of Panjab from unbiased sources, like the English, and you will see that the Sikhs were viciously attacked, as part of a planned manouvre, by the Muslim League, in Rawalpindi Division, not just Rawalpindi district, but Rawalpindi Division, and you can see what Lady Mountbatten had to write about it, as she personally witnessed the aftermath by plane. Every Pakistani i have met,have claimed that "you Sikhs killed a lot of Muslims in partition..." and they ludicrously claim, that no SIkh was killed by any Muslim. Brother, the loss of western panjab is a dagger in our hearts, because we do not have the freedom to visit the Holy Land, where our Guru Ji, Guru Nanak was born. This pain is still felt by Sikhs today, and we remember this loss every day. Every Single day. Whatdo you want us to think of Pakistan? There is only one answer from us. I dont know any Sikh that blames Pakistanis for the atrocities on the Gurus per se. I have met pakistanis who claim that Aurangzeb was a pious, spiritual man, who would never harm anyone. We hold the Moghals to account for this, but the support for the moghals by their co-religionists ( Pakistanis) doesnt endear them to us either.

Paaji I take your point about the UK, but the fact remains that Americans are programmed by TV and their media to be ignorant towards anything that is not TEAM USA! America is a world within a world which can be broken down in to 50 countries (states) governed by their own state laws, while adherent to central governance. So there seems to be a mindset propagated that makes them very insular in their opinions of and towards non Americans. With regards to your comment about people in the pind, I would buy in to your theory, if this documentary was filmed using people who have a limited access to books, Internet etc. in hicksville in the deep south of the US, but the fact is, that it's not! It's filmed at a university campus using some of their free thinkers, future leaders and strategists in the worlds most powerful country and largest advocate and exporter of democracy!

Insulting the founder of a major world religion is not right. If you don't agree with something it's better to keep your views to yourself. This is a Sikhism forum, people come here to learn about Sikhism not insult other religions. The kind of content I see here sometimes and on other Sikh forums is exactly why I wouldn't suggest a Hindu or Muslim to learn about Sikhism from a Sikh discussion forum. Even if you don't agree with someone, does it hurt to be a little respectful to a fellow human being? **SSM edit : If you find any such posts that contradict Gurmat and/or violate the rules of the forums (like what you said in your post above), please feel free to report them so mods can see them faster. A lot of people view these forums and it's the duty of everyone, including those that post here, to ensure the environment remains tolerant and intellectual. Dhanvaad

how about going to tarn tarn sahib, fatehgarh sahib, gurdwara dukh niwaran and pariwar vichora?

It is quite sinister this sudden emergance of this sanathan activity something that as no base in Sikhs. It seems as if it is being financed and supported by external entities the way it has suddenly emerged. Reminds me of the Darshan Dass cult that came about after 1984 that was funded by India. A new history is being presented which I find incredible , the Shaheeds that took part in getting rid of the idol worshipping mahants and dynastic priest class are being stated as the villans. Quite dangerous to the youth who may not be aware of the actual facts.

bro i reckon 1 better, they shud make this thread a permanent stick

When you run into a problem, don't get mad or angry. Tell yourself that it is Maharaj's Hukam that the problem occured and start doing simran. Also at the same time think of a solution to the problem that doesn't involve you indulging in the five vices (ego, anger, greed, lust, worldly attachment). Anyone can love Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj, when everything is happening as we would want it to happen. It's in the hard times in life that really show how much we love Maharaj. Incease love for Maharaj in these types of incidents and what Hukam is, will become clearer. Also do or listen to Sri Sukhmani Sahib or Sri Anand Sahib and then Sri Japji Sahib da paat. Contemplate over Gurbani as much as you can. If you can't picture yourself doing a certain seva....like cleaning sangat shoes or washing sangats dishes, sweeping the floors, etc then do it for not 10 minutes, but till certain body parts start to ache and your mind is telling you to give up. Don't stop at this point....keep going and keep doing simran throughout the seva. Once you pass this hurdle, then the mind wants to say i am able to go for so long in a certain seva and able to do it effiecently. This is your pride talking and to knock it down. Start repeating over and over Tuhi, Tuhi, Tuhi, Tuhi, Tuhi......with a shabad that praises Vaheguru who does all and that you can't do nothing and are nothing.....all work you do is a total waste....only Maharaj's work is fruitful.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh Im new to the community and I have seen alot of articles complaining about manmukhs doing bad stuff. Then in the comments people say bad stuff about the manmukhs. Rehat Maryada clearly says not to get revenge or retalliate useing kordi boli(bad words phrases anything that might anyone) if your ina life death matter then yes self defence is acceptable. Guru Gobind Singh always explained others sins with respect and love. As a follower of sikhi it is not right to use language lke that. May the sin be wrong yes i wont deny that but the way you deal about it or complain about it is. Please consider this waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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