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India didn't break East Pakistan, West Pakistan did, when it tried to force its culture and language on a people that clearly didn't want it. It wasnt the Indians that did this, nor did the indians treat them cruelly, or rape their women. Pakistan does not really maintain these with respect, it just does it as a gesture to pi$$ off the indians. If Pakistan did respect all the historic Sikh sites, then it wouldnt have allowed them to be turned into mosques/schools etc or allow them to be demolished or run down. The land of these Gurdwaras has been whittled away by pakistanis, but the govt has done nothing to prevent it, nor will it do anything to recover those lands for the Sikhs. You know something that is really funny? the muslims said pre 47, that Nankana Sahib was as dear to them as it was to the Sikhs, when the Sikhs protested that we cant leave Nankana Sahib in another country, and the british beleived them, and as soon as partition was announced the muslims with the aid of the baloch military attacked Nankana Sahib and shot down thousands of Sikhs in the city and also the Gurdwara. Respect does not come through mere words.

Gatka is an effective martial art, there is no doubt about that. The fact that all the so called 'dangerous tricks' in shastar vidya have been taken out of gatka, makes it all the more effective. This has been proven time and time again. Combat sports have rules to make them safer to compete in. For example in boxing, wrestling and fencing etc, you actually get to test your skills out against a live opponent who is doing their best to beat you and you are doing the same thing back. By focusing on only a few techniques and leaving out the rest, you develop a simple and aggressive gamplan that is well drilled and dont confuse yourself with a myriad of techniques - all the best boxers have their handful of favourite combinations that they knock everyone out with; all the best wrestlers have 2 or 3 throws that they are expert at. Once you have mastered a combat sporting martial art, you can always learn dangerous streetfighting techniques on the back of that and include it in training if you wish. In traditional martial arts, where they practice 'dangerous techniques' alone, you can never really try them out on anyone properly in training, you can only ever simulate it. Most people that practice these arts, including the shastar vidya guys cant apply their techniques in real life. They are just martial arts geeks that like the idea of lots of 'dangerous techniques' and enjoy dressing up in fancy dress costumes and wielding old weapons. Most have never been in a real fight or experienced the stress and pressure and trying to apply techniques against an uncompliant opponent. Gatka can be a very effective martial art. Like all martial arts, there are good instructors and rubbish instructors, and there are good practioners and poor practioners. Gatka in its demonstration form is indeed a 'nameshi khed' or exhibitionism. However, all demonstrations of martial arts are designed to be entertaining. Demonstrations are only a small part of Gatka. It can be trained both as a combat art and as a combat sport depending on the objectives and reasons for training. Shastar vidya is a fake made up martial art which has appeared out of nowhere. It is designed to woo gullible youngsters with its so-called deadly techniques. In reality, it is just a club for geeks that have never been in a real fight and enjoy dressing up as 17th century warriors whilst playing with ancient weapons.

It's amazing how the made up history of Shastar Vidya is gaining currency, albeit with some naive and starry eyed youth. Guru Nanak taught Shastar Vidya to Baba Budha? How is it that Bhai Gurdas forgot to mention this 'fact'? How is it not in any of Janamsakhis? If the starting point of Shastar Vidya is based on a lie then can the rest of it's history be authentic?

Anyone claiming that the Sikhs started the partition violence and the Muslims were just on the receiving end is either grossly ignorant or someone with an agenda. You said that you will not challenge my assertion so I urge you to read the latest book by Istiaq Ahmed, Punjab bloodied and partitioned and his presentation at Lund university. The link is here-; http://www.sasnet.lu...leansing-punjab No Sikhs have ever claimed that their leaders or many Sikhs in general acted like Angels during partition, but the Sikh violence was the violence of a minority which had lost its political objective and was fighting to ensure the resettlement of half of their population who were refugees from West Punjab. The violence of the Muslims was the violence of those who had achieved their political objective and yet still wanted to wipe out a minority from their midst. I don't know whether you can appreciate the difference but it is there. As Chatanga wrote, we lost our best lands and all our historic Gurdwaras. In the central districts of Punjab, every nook and corner has some association with Sikh history. These districts were the ones that our Gurus nurtured Sikhi in and the ones which formed the backbone of the Sikh empire. No doubt on your side attempts are being made to not publicise the Sikh association but it is there for anyone who is keen to find the truth to see. Even many Pakistani scholars are unaware of what an attachment that land has for Sikhs and deeply we felt it's loss. The only way that I can give you an example is how you would feel if Mecca and Medina were under the control of the Christian or the Jews? Obviously Sikhs hope for good relations between India and Pakistan and in future between Khalistan and Pakistan. Only a few fools who are under the control of Indian government want the relations to be worst. It was the Sikhs through the Nankana Sahib Foundation in 1978 and 1979 that did the leg work to ensure that Sikh pilgrims could go on yatras to Pakistan. If you ever see any footage of the ridiculous tamasha that takes place every evening the border is closed at wagha-Attari you will note that very few Sikhs will be seen jingoisticly shouting slogans such as Hindustan Zindabad. It is mostly the urban Hindus and Indian tourists who make a point of showing their nationalistic zeal on these occasions. Yet, if there was a war there, these fools would be the first to flee across the Jamna! As for how and when your family might converted to Islam, no one apart from your elders or if you have them their Mirasis would be able to give you the right answer. I have noted that 100% of Pakistani will always note that their ancestors were converted by the Sufis. It's almost as if there was no Islamic invasions and the Turk and Afghan invaders never existed. You should read some of the writings of the Muslims from that time about how the survivors of the battles between the Muslims and Hindus were given the choice of Islam or death. Many chose Islam. As for the Sufi contribution, no doubt they propogated Islam and some Hindus especially the lower castes would have gone over to Islam, but the vast majority were forcibly converted. If you look at the Sufis, there were probably more Sufis in East Punjab than in West Punjab yet the Hindus in West Punjab were the ones that converted to Islam whilst the ones in East Punjab either remained Hindus, became Sultanis or converted to Sikhism. If anything the wholescale conversion to Islam that you claim for the Sufis should have occurred in East Punjab rather than West Punjab. The influence of the Sufis in East Punjab was limited to having Hindu followers who became known as Sultanis which was a half way house between Hinduism and Islam. How is it that the Sufis were able to convert en masse in West Punjab whilst they could only make little headway in East Punjab and even that was negated when these Sultanis became Sikhs during the times of the Gurus and after. The reason for believing that conversion was forcible is because as someone pointed out about 70% of the Rajputs of Punjab were Muslims. Their conversion was almost universal from Rawalpindi to Jalandhar. How is it that a caste such as that which had a high position in the Hindu caste system become Muslim when there was really nothing to be gained from becoming Muslim. The case is made stronger given that many of the Rajputs of Hoshiarpur who lived on the plain became Muslims but the ones in the Hills and Himachal were strongly Hindu. They were so strongly Hindu that they fought against Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa because of the Khalsa's anti-caste character. How is it that the same caste in Himachal are fanatic Hindus and the ones on the plains left their high caste origin behind and joined a casteless Islam from which they had nothing to gain? The only reason was that Muslim political influence was never strong in the hills and any concerted campaign to forcibly convert requires the use of superior power in the first instance to convert by force and then a strong presence for many years to stop those forcibly converted from going back to their old religion. The Rajputs were the soldier class in Punjab at the time of the Muslims invasions so they were the ones who would have been defeated and then offered Islam or death.

if there is a real need for what you are saying, then it is not nindya but a warning. look in your heart to know if your intentions are pure.

Please read the following as a humble attempt atwriting up about the Udasi Panth and the life of Sri Chand. I will begin by showing some pictures of Sri Chand and his life.

Sikh History reinforces the idea that Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj and the Sikh Gurus enjoyed a deeply loving and intimate relationship. Baba Sri Chand Ji arranged the marriage of his nephew Baba Dharam Chand Ji. Guru Amardass Ji offered his son Bhai Mohan to Baba Sri Chand Ji. Guru Ramdass Ji came to visit Baba Sri Chand Ji and on Baba Ji’s suggestion changed the name of the holy town Ramdaspur or Ramdassar to Sri Amritsar. The Gur Partap Sooraj Parkash and Guru Twarikh Khalsa also give mention of Baba Sri Chand’s visit to Sri Amritsar. Baba Sri Chand Ji was seated and honoured on a high place. In Twarikh Guru khalsa. Gian Singh Ji writes ”Guru Ramdass Ji offered 1 horse and 500 Rupees unto Baba Sri Chand Ji and Baba Ji was very pleased at this offering. Baba Sri Chand Ji asked Guru Ramdass Ji“ Why have thou such a long beard?”.To which Guru Ramdass Ji answered “To wipe the feet of holy people like yourself” and Guru Ramdass Ji wiped Baba Sri Chand Ji’s feet with his beard. An annual offering of 500 rupees and a horse was offered to Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj every year by the household of the Sikh Gurus. Guru Arjan Dev Ji visited Baba Sri Chand Ji at Barath (Dist. Gurdaspur) and recited his composed 16 Ashtpadis. Baba Sri Chand Ji was very pleased and requested Guru Arjan Dev Ji to utter 24 Ashtpadis to which Guru Ji agreed. Guru Arjan Dev Ji requested that he add to the Sukhmani Sahib prayer. Baba Sri Chand Ji uttered the 17th Salok of Sri Sukhmani Sahib following his father Guru Nanak Dev Ji, “Aaad Saach Jugaad Saach Hai Bhi Sach Nanak Hosee Bhi Sach”. The Sixth Guru of the Sikhs, Sahib Shri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji together with his sons went to pay homage to Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj. Baba Sri Chand Ji requested Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji to give him his son Baba Gurditta Ji to which Guru Ji agreed. Sri Chand Ji remarked that the radiant face of Baba Gurditta Ji was similar to that of his father Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Baba Sri Chand ji gave his Udasi dress to Baba Gurditta Ji and appointed Baba Gurditta JI as his successor and also uttered “Baba Gurditta Din Duniya Da Tikka”. Guru Arjan Dev Ji also gathered some pothis from Baba Sri Chand Ji for preparing the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or the First Recension of Sahib Shri Guru Granth Sahib.

This is horrible on so many levels, I can't even begin to describe why. Corporate imperialism should stay clear of Harmandir Sahib area, it's a dirty, dirty game and would be a horrible loss of political voice for Sikhs if this occurs. We need to protest this and ensure this doesn't open. Are we up for the task? I think not. Harmandir Sahib serves free langar to everyone, everywhere. We don't need a corporate and unethical food chain that works off the blood of children (literally) and has horrible vibes in general surrounding the chain. All Sikhs should boycott McDonalds around the world. Many non-veggies go there to eat and if we could get them and the liberal Sikhs who only eat their fries (although their fries contain meat oil) to boycott McDonalds around the world and get Sikhs in Amritsar to hold demonstrations and protests so the WORLD hears our voice, we can make a difference. ALthough this may sound paranoid, but the powers to be who wish Sikhs ill would deliberately do this with the end goal of dismantling Sri Harmandir Sahib - the HEART of all Sikhs.

Thanks i love you too..give me brotherly hug man..!!

In relation to Giani Hari Singh there really insn't any issue. Scholars rarely agree on any one thing, there are always differences, i.e. meat issue, mool mantra etc. This doesn't mean that you start a mud slinging contest, saying one is a complete fake, or is making insults or is opposite to his Ustad's teachings. The real question here is what is the history of the Udasi Samparda. This requires a lot of research and hopefully will be answered soon.

You are at the wrong forum. Are you not ashamed of yourself? You want to recite Gurbani to wreck the life of another girl who doesn't deserve to be punished? Thats the cheapest thing I've read in a long time. Ok, I don't mean to be harsh, I understand you're in pain. But my only suggestion would be to let go. You can't even sum up the courage to speak to your folks about him, yet you want to cause a disaster in his family? Why cause pain in someone else life if your fate caused it in yours? Just forget about this guy, he isn't worth it. If he really loved you he would have stood up for you before his family. He didn't! So forget him and move on. Trust me even if you end up with him, you won't be happy. A man who can't defend his love from a strong breeze of air will never hold on to it once the storms of life strike him. Read this: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:pQfUXsZEPUcJ:www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/literature/General%2520Sikhism/Amanpreet%2520Kaur%2520Marries%2520a%2520Hindu.pdf+%22amanpreet+kaur+marries+a+hindu%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiTMbUgHG4Krf1sUyUYgBaM6Kb7CFbY3ZND_lLLV_D8HyfU1mSnADz0-wTMc1X3rCmEAHw0wfgH7xZdwNq9KwC6TB-sl1tGSgFKnRIB2Am90NRC7JCMmERzYdiZsX02O4Gk1HST&sig=AHIEtbQhG8_otEN2BVK8rROPDTLIQb3Yww

I would be open to go and present Sant Gurbachab Singh Bhindranwales katha, logical fallacies and lack of historical evididence but I would be reluctant as critical questions are sometimes viewed as beingh negatives . If baba Ji comes I will try to go .

Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Udasis and Udasis aren't the same thing at all.

another thing to realise in the fall of Sikhs in numbers and the rise in hindus is that, it is a popular (but inaccurate) policy of hindus to claim that Hindu families raised their eldest son as a Sikh, but the reality was that it paid to be a Sikh in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs rule, as Sikhs were readily accepted into his army. This for the Hindus was a way of feeding their families, as their child was essentially a govt employee. When Sikh rule ended, they saw that there was no longer a need to do this, and it was not financially positive, and hence the return to the Hindu fold, by many Sikhs.

The message of Gurbani is to accept the Bhaana of Akaal Purakh. Anyone who does that, the least he/she will do as a start is quit dishonoring his/her hair in any way/shape/form. Gurbani is written in "chautha paad", i.e. enlightened state of consciousness. Lets not take everything literally. There are deeper meanings to what Gurbani teaches us. Please run a search on this forum. This question has been answered in huge details several times.

I'm surprised people are finding justifications for what Baba Hari Singh Randhawe said. Also, n30singhji, you say we should go and ask him. I don't think we should have to go and ask anything because we're seeing what he said at face value, it is Pal paji and you who are trying to say he meant something else. You should be the ones asking for clarification if you guys are really passionate about it. For me, because of what he said, in this case he has lost credibility to say Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the udasees.

Shastar Vidya has NOTHING to do with Sikhism.

True, that argument by Baba Hari Singh Jee is inconsistent with Sikh history. We have so many examples of the Sikh Gurus whose sons were unworthy, yet how is that an insult to the Gurus? We are literally seeing Sikh history being changed before our eyes. But it's good we have veers who can stand up to distortions. God bless the man who recorded Sant Gurbachan singh Bhindranwale which is the greatest proof of how some of Sant Jee's former students are using his prestigious name to get public recognition yet go against sant Jee on on religious matters.

My intention wasn't to present an argument to your specific question lol, I was just saying that nothing is what it seems to be. Just because things exist it doesn't mean they should be used, and just because certain things don't make sense to you it doesn't mean they're wrong. Waheguru is the only one that knows the ins, outs and secrets of this universe. Who am I to explain the meanings behind the Guru's hukams? I know nothing, I merely say 'satbachan'.

Entire wealth of creation be a sacrifice at you door, Without Complete Surrender there is no getting.

Amazing tips! Thanks Penji, will be sure to try these out asap! Maharaj kirpa karan.

Ah the nitty-gritties lol. Meh, I'd rather go to a rehnsbhayee than dance bhangra anyway :cool2:

Dancing is against Gurmat. Guruka Singh is completely speaking from a manmat view point. He has not even asked Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj, if he is allowed to dance. There is one shabad by Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj that clears this topic up in a split second. Today we are so blessed to have Gurbani at our finger tips. But how many people ask Satguru what they can and can't do. Yes when it comes to recieving what people want, then they run to the Gurdwara and ask the Granthi Singh to do Ardas for them and they even go to the extent of opening many Akhand Paaths, so that their desires are fullfilled. Then they tell there family and friends....we have taken all alcohol and meat and lustful music out of the house like the Granthi Singh has advised. We keep total respect for Maharaj as we need something from Maharaj. Now many people dance. How many of these people sat down and asked Satguru can you tell me if dancing is alright with you? I need this information because my mind, body, and soul is burning to get your darshan. You know what these same people say who were begging just two seconds ago from Maharaj (these people put on the biggest show infront of Maharaj...........really funny to watch their fake but good acting melt downs)................we don't need to be told what we can and can't do........what is wrong with dancing....Sikhi is not black and white.....Sikhi is tanned like me..........who said you are the authority of who can and can't dance................look in Gurbani the word dance comes up so that means we can dance...............I know a Sikh with Pugg who dance all the time........so we can dance........you can't tell us to stop. They forget just two seconds ago when they were in complete pain they were asking for guidance from Maharaj. But once they got what they needed they tell Maharaj, you can take the back seat..........me and miss pooja are going to dance the night away. So yes pain is the medicine and pleasure is the disease. These people like to dance when they are in the most happiest moods.............they forget all about Maharaj, then Maharaj doesn't exist and there is no need to do Ardas or Akhand Paath because Akhand Paaths and Ardas are only made to be done when we need something from Maharaj...........these events are for sad days in our lives. Don't you know how sad of a paath Sri Anand Sahib is.............so so sad paath. And Ardas....first half of Chandi Di Vaar..........it is full of sad feeling....so we do when we are sad and Maharaj bless us with what we want and then we get happy.............. Anyways....i though i start the post off with some sarcasm..........Guruka Singh did it.....why cant i do it. The Shabad i am about to post needs to be understood by listening to a Gurmukh explain the shabad. If you sit there and try to understand the shabad you might get the meaning of it, but most likely you will end up like the Akhand Paath and Ardas people.....I know Sikh with Pugg who dance....so i dance.....he in mirror every morning :biggrin2: Just in case some of you take my sarcasm as an insult.............i apologize in advance. I am very sorry, but the sarcasm serves a purpose....bit of humour to get the message across....hey!!! :biggrin2: It's a Canadian thing. ਆਸਾ ॥ आसा महला १ ॥ Āsā mėhlā 1. Aasaa, First Mehl: ਵਾਜਾ ॥ वाजा मति पखावजु भाउ ॥ vājā maṯ pakẖāvaj bẖā▫o. Make your intellect your instrument, and love your tambourine; ਹੋਇ ॥ होइ अनंदु सदा मनि चाउ ॥ Ho▫e anand saḏā man cẖā▫o. thus bliss and lasting pleasure shall be produced in your mind. ਏਹਾ ॥ एहा भगति एहो तप ताउ ॥ Ėhā bẖagaṯ eho ṯap ṯā▫o. This is devotional worship, and this is the practice of penance. ਇਤੁ ॥੧॥ इतु रंगि नाचहु रखि रखि पाउ ॥१॥ Iṯ rang nācẖahu rakẖ rakẖ pā▫o. ||1|| So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||1|| ਪੂਰੇ ॥ पूरे ताल जाणै सालाह ॥ Pūre ṯāl jāṇai sālāh. Know that the perfect beat is the Praise of the Lord; ਹੋਰੁ ॥ होरु नचणा खुसीआ मन माह ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Hor nacẖṇā kẖusī▫ā man māh. ||1|| rahā▫o. other dances produce only temporary pleasure in the mind. ||1||Pause|| ਸਤੁ ॥ सतु संतोखु वजहि दुइ ताल ॥ Saṯ sanṯokẖ vajėh ḏu▫e ṯāl. Play the two cymbals of truth and contentment. ਪੈਰੀ ॥ पैरी वाजा सदा निहाल ॥ Pairī vājā saḏā nihāl. Let your ankle bells be the lasting Vision of the Lord. ਰਾਗੁ ॥ रागु नादु नही दूजा भाउ ॥ Rāg nāḏ nahī ḏūjā bẖā▫o. Let your harmony and music be the elimination of duality. ਇਤੁ ॥੨॥ इतु रंगि नाचहु रखि रखि पाउ ॥२॥ Iṯ rang nācẖahu rakẖ rakẖ pā▫o. ||2|| So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||2|| ਭਉ ॥ भउ फेरी होवै मन चीति ॥ Bẖa▫o ferī hovai man cẖīṯ. Let the fear of God within your heart and mind be your spinning dance, ਬਹਦਿਆ ॥ बहदिआ उठदिआ नीता नीति ॥ Bahḏi▫ā uṯẖ▫ḏi▫ā nīṯā nīṯ. and keep up, whether sitting or standing. ਲੇਟਣਿ ॥ लेटणि लेटि जाणै तनु सुआहु ॥ Letaṇ let jāṇai ṯan su▫āhu. To roll around in the dust is to know that the body is only ashes. ਇਤੁ ॥੩॥ इतु रंगि नाचहु रखि रखि पाउ ॥३॥ Iṯ rang nācẖahu rakẖ rakẖ pā▫o. ||3|| So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||3|| ਸਿਖ ॥ सिख सभा दीखिआ का भाउ ॥ Sikẖ sabẖā ḏīkẖi▫ā kā bẖā▫o. Keep the company of the disciples, the students who love the teachings. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ॥ गुरमुखि सुणणा साचा नाउ ॥ Gurmukẖ suṇ▫ṇā sācẖā nā▫o. As Gurmukh, listen to the True Name. ਨਾਨਕ ॥ नानक आखणु वेरा वेर ॥ Nānak ākẖaṇ verā ver. O Nanak, chant it, over and over again. <a class="dict" href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਇਤੁ">ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪੈਰ ॥੪॥੬॥ इतु रंगि नाचहु रखि रखि पैर ॥४॥६॥ Iṯ rang nācẖahu rakẖ rakẖ pair. ||4||6|| So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||4||6|| ang 350 Raag Aasaa--Ang-350 Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Maharaj katha on the above shabad....enjoy......share and contemplate.

The way I look at it is if you're Khalas or Khalsa, then you don't take protein at all. You stick with natural stuff. I may be wrong but I have a friend who goes to the gym and he's pretty buffed up and he doesn't take any protein at all. Drink dhudh my man lol

Chatanga Veer, Nawaz Sharif wasn't Arain he is from a family of Kashmiri Brahmin converts. Just like Allama Iqbal was also from Brahmin family + was instrumental in creating the idea of Pakistan. Zia was Arain who called himself a peasant's son, compared to Bhutto who was Rajput that Zia hanged Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan wasn't Pathan but was from the Hazara caste. As the Pathans totally hate the hazara caste for there oriental features. Khan means King in the Mongolian language so all castes have adopted it as a surname in Pakistan. Pathans who are Aryans even adopted it. Plus all Punjabi Muslims as Khan sounded more royal than there Hindu surnames. There are Jatts called Khan, Rajputs called Khan, Gujjars called Khan etc, etc so it doesn't have anything to do with Pathan

Auzer bro, since you are on a Sikh forum, I should explain to you what Mehtab Veer is saying. In Sikhism we believe that once a person reaches full spiritual enlightenment they become Brahmgianis. And Brahmgiani means, Brahm- world/universe Gian-knowledge. So we believe, Bhai Gurdas ji, Kavi Santokh Singh ji, Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale were all brahmgianis. In Gurbani, specifically Sukhmani Sahib this is explained in great depth. To us Sikhs, accounts of such enlightened beings are much much more accurate than of some PhD "scholar."

I would have thought that was obvious. Baba Hari Singh claims that those who are criticising Baba Sri Chand are indirectly insulting Guru Nanak because the greatest insult you can say to someone is to say that your sons are unworthy. But many of the sons of the Gurus were unworthy such as Ram Rai and Prithi Chand. So here you have someone whom his chelas claim to be a BRAHMGYANI but he cannot see how flawed his argument is and how easy it is to show that he cannot put forward a consistent argument. I am sure a large number of the people in the audience know the story of Ram Rai and Prithi Chand yet they allowed his foolish argument to pass without showing his argument for what it is. Had someone stood up and shown his how inconsistent his argument was then maybe he would go back reading basic Sikh history and come back with a consistent argument.

. It was all white wash. Devagan asked his friend Sunil Datt, and in turn Sunil Dutt asked his close friend Sukhbir Badal (the deputy chief minister of Punjab) who asked his brother-in-law Majithia (a Radha Swami), the minister for information to get Devagan a clean chit in the matter. Majithia in starting the press conference showered tons of praises on Devagan without mentioning even once of what the points of objections in the complaint were. The issue was not discussed on the religious issues that were raised in the complaint. Devagun was let off just like that because he is a friend of a friend. What a sham. In the original objection it was stated that Devagan had shown a tattoo of Hindu deity Shiva from which inference to be drawn was that he is promoting that Sikhi is part of Hinduism and also worshiper of deity Shiva... Now a question comes to my mind is that does Devagan indeed has the tattoo permanently etched on his chest or was it a temporary tattoo put just for the purpose of the film? If it was put on only for the film, what message did he want to convey by that? . .

In regards to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, his grand father or maybe great grand father is from Afghanistan and were ethnic Hazaras. His people were persecuted in Afghanistan because of which a great many of them had settled in India at the time. Nusrat's family had settled in Jalandhar. That's why Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan sort of had that chinese look to his eyes.

Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa! Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! With Vaheguru`s Grace, a Reansbhai Keertan & Amrit Sanchaar has been organised by Akhand Kirtani Jatha UK, to commemorate the Parkaash Ustav of Dhan Dhan Sri Guroo Granth Sahib Jee It will be held on Saturday 15th September 2012 at: Singh Sabha Gurudwara, 722 - 730 High Road, Seven Kings, Ilford, Essex, IG3 8SX Amrit Sanchaar The Amrit Sanchaar will be on Saturday 15th September 2012 starting at 8pm sharp at Singh Sabha Gurdwara, 722 - 730 High Road, Ilford. Can all Abhlakhees contact Bhai Taranjeet Singh Coventry (07877888874) to provide their names for the Amrit Sanchaar. If you have questions, you can contact Bhai Jarnail Singh on 01926 771944. If any persons do not have full Kakaars, then Akhand Kirtani Jatha UK will provide them as part of the Seva.

She must be good on the plough. Everything else will fall into place.

Guys let's not get into the India vs Pakistan debate. At the end of the day the creation of Pakistan was a disaster for Sikhs. We lost our best lands as well as our historic Gurdwaras. India has killed lakhs of Sikhs as well as infiltrated anti-Sikh forces into our institutions and political parties. But let's not turn this into a Sikh Vs Muslim thread. That can be left for another thread should the opening poster see fit to create one. [MOD CUT] Pakistan -Sikh relations start around the late 1930s when the Muslims started to demand Pakistan. So let's take it from there. The whole Pakistan project was presented to the Muslim masses as the creation of a state when the Muslims would be ruling the roost. The Muslims although a bare majority were the worst off economically, educationally, socially and politically in Punjab. The Sikhs held the majority of land in the central districts, they also had along with the Hindus the best private schools. The Hindus being more urban based controlled the economy having the most commercial establishments followed by Sikhs and then followed far behind by Muslims. Pakistan to the common Muslims meant that the then state of affairs would be flipped. Muslims would be the ruling class and the Sikhs and Hindus would then become the downtrodden class. The lands of the Sikhs and the factories and shops of the Hindus would come into Muslim hands. The Muslims in Punjab were the first to use violence to acheive their political objective of Pakistan during March 1947. The Muslim league party which was the largest party in the Punjab assembly was not asked to try and from a government and whether it could have got enough support from any of the other parties in the assembly is academic. The point is that a MAJORITY of the Punjab voters had not voted in favour of Pakistan. Being frustrated in their aims the Muslim League used its paramilitary force to kill thousands of Sikhs and Hindus around Rawalpindi. So this was the first event in Pakistan-Sikh relations. The use of violence against Sikhs in order to achieve a political objective. When the Sikhs retaliated against the Muslim violence it was when they ahd lost all their best lands and half of their population were being turned into refugees. The aim of the Sikhs were to clear East Punjab of Muslims and thus create space for the refugee Sikhs from West Punjab. Had Gandhi and Nehru had their way they would have ensured that all Muslims stayed put in East Punjab and refugee Sikhs would have been resettled outside Punjab. This would probably have been preceeded by a political stunt of attempting to send back the refugees to Pakistan from where they had only saved themselves by the skin of the teeth. It might be true what Auzer has stated that more Muslims were killed than Sikhs and Hindus in 1947. It wasn't for want of trying on the part of the Muslims. The recent book by Istiaq Ahmed about the partition violence concedes that the Muslims were the first to use violence to acheive their political objective. The reason he believes that more Muslims were killed than non-Musims was due to the fact that having suffered heavily in March 1947, the Sikhs were able to make preparations for the coming violence. In my view the Muslims having seen that there was no Sikh retaliation in March 1947, the Muslims believed that they had beaten the Sikhs into submission and having achieved that objective the Hindus of Punjab could easily be bullied into acquiesce to Pakistan. Having, in their view beaten the Sikhs, the Muslim League did not believe that they needed to make concessions to the Sikhs and hence the offer of a Sikh state within Pakistan was an afterthought and offered at a time when the Sikhs knew that Pakistan meant to the Muslim masses. Ironically had the Sikhs retaliated heavily against the Muslims in East Punjab in March 1947 rather than as they did in August there might have been likelihood of some sort of Muslim-Sikh agreement which would have possible. 2. After 1947 there was a lot of hostility towards Sikhs in Pakistan, more than the hostility to Hindus. After realising how they had badly they misjudged the Sikhs, the Muslim rulers of Pakistan ensured that the Sikhs were always presented as the enemies of the Pakistanis. The Government published two books, The Sikh Plan and The Sikh Plan in Action trying to blame the Sikhs for all the violence against the Muslims. They conveniently forgot that they had been the ones who had used violence to achieve Pakistan. The Pakistani representative also blamed the Sikhs at a speech at the UN. From what I have heard the Pakistani primary textbooks from the 1950s had a picture of a Sikh as a representation of the word Z for Zalim (tyrant). 3. On the point of the 1965 and 1971 wars. Both sides present 1965 as a victory for their side. Indira Gandhi armed and trained the Mukti Bahini so Pakistan had every right to arm and train Sikhs and Kashmiris in the 1980s. But the big difference is that whereas Indira Gandhi was sincere in creating Bangladesh, the Pakistani have never been sincere in helping the Sikhs create Khalistan. Their aim in to keep the Indian army bogged down in Punjab so that Kashmir can be 'liberated'. Most Kharkoos realised this double game of the Pakistanis. Benazir Bhutto helped Rajeev Gandhi with intelligence about the Khalistani groups in Punjab.

Gurfateh veerji, Putting you off moderation. However, Do refrain yourself from posting any material written/spoken by anti-dasam granth side on our forums. Stay in high spirits -- Dasam Granth March 1, 2008 Dasam Granth Bani: SikhSangat.com holds a Pro Dasam Granth stand. We believe that the Dasam Granth Sahib in its current form is the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. No provocative, insulting or derogatory language will be tolerated against Dasam Granth Sahib. Any topic or post questioning the authority and authenticity of the Dasam Granth will not be allowed. Not following the rule will result in Under moderation and possible ban without an issuance of warning.

The panth has and always will be in chardikala. Accept Maharajs paana and everything will seem sweet. 'The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out'.

Yes, there is one. The top one. Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I wish I was being funny but I'm not. Speaking from experience, you won't find anyone who can help you like Guru Granth Sahib Ji can help you.