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Damn! Beat me to it!...?

Mool Mantar definition 2 Ik Oankar Ik = one unique Oankar = the name of God. The Numeral one stands for a being that is unique and has no other similars to them. God is considered to be Sujati. This means God is the only one of his species and you can find no other like him. Unlike other species you can find them in numbers of more then one such as human beings. There are over 7 billion humans in the world showinh that an individual human is not Sujati as there are over 7 billion similar to them but God has no other remotely similar to them. God is Vijati. This means God has no other species similar to him. Humans have other mammal group, which are similar to them. According to science and the evolution theories of Darwninism and Lamarckism state that the primate family pf apes is similar to that of human beings and they are descends. Im this way there is no other species similar to God. God is Svaigat. God was born from himself and does not have any limbs or attachments. A tree is born from a seed and has branches and flowers or fruit. A human is born from another human and has limbs such as arms and legs. Other creatures such as chickens are born from eggs. Animals such as head lice are born from heat. God is unlike those species and was not through the means of womb, eggs, a seed or from heat. God is self born and is the form of self illumination. God is with our limbs, forms or characteristics seen by people but he is bound within all of his creation. Within all is the illumination and the Lord is the illumination within all. By this illumination the light radiantes in all. (Ang 13 SGGS) In this way God is Sujati, Vijati and Svaigat. God has no Des(Country). God does not have his own land, which can be named. God does not reside in any specific land but everywhere at once. The Hindu consider God to reside in the East and face the sun in meditation. Muslims consider God to reside in Meeca and face the direction when praying. (According to Sant Ji it used to be a Shiva Mandir and all the idols were destroyed when Prophet Mohammed took it over. Also Sant Ji says that it used to be white but due to the sins of people it turned black) (On Prophet Mohammed from what we know of Avtars we can conclude that he was ethier a Avesha or Nit Avtar) Christians and Jews consider God to reside in the seventh level of Heaven. However, God resides in all places all at once. God is present in all lands as Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji showed in Mecca, when the Kabba moved in the direction that his holy feet turned. The Lord resides in all of the lands Dasam Granth Ang 6 God has no Kal (time). At some point every being was born Ethier at day or night. God does not die due to this nor does he take birth. His form is immortal. Tod is considered timeless and cannot be placed into the concept of time, which is a man made concept. To be countined...

The guy is a missionary. I checked his website he is anti dasam bani.

How old are you ? I used to think the same until my last two visits to India. If anything, keeping up appearances is much more important in India than the West. You will always be an outsider. But you can make it work if you really want to, probably What would be your livelihood? As you will be aware, farmers have it very difficult in India.

Don't need to watch the whole video to realise this daktar karminder phd boston is a stain on Gurmat. There are many mentions of sakhis in it. Not with a beginning, middle or end in the conventional sense but there are many sakhis which have some mention in Guru Granth Sahib. If you had read my post (lengthy as it is) then you would have seen for yourself that Bhai Sunder, writes the last days of Guru Sahib as if it were a sakhi. Then why would Guru Sahibuse the names of the Siddhs asking him questions and then responding to them, when Guru Sahib could just have written a shabad to explain evertthing. Only those with an agenda define stories as "made up." Historical events are not known as sakhis - they are known as itihaas. Sakhis are all about the Guru Sahibs and their teachings, and how those teachings actually came about. Great for you then. Tell us how and why Sikhs began to have "Singh/Kaur" in their names. Seen the film. Possibly, but enemies of Gurmat don't really deserve better.

There’s a really nice serial on Netflix, for anyone who is interested....with English subtitles... After their death, the key characters are called by Dharam Raja to explain the roles they played in this epic saga... They all try to justify their actions... The questions asked by the Dharam Raja, are questions that arise in the mind of all of us... The reasons given are very interesting... Good actors in this serial, well played out... Draupadi is played by Kasmmira Irani... ? The men are portrayed without Kesh, which is such a shame. In the Mahabharata serials, and even in Ramayana, people had Kesh. Sri Ram Chandra and Krishna did not have beards, since they were Avtars of deities, but they did have Kesh...

Maybe worth letting some of them join and see what they post as could be people interested in Sikhi from Hindu backgrounds.

well so far China has built an outpost inside LOC and the silk road motorway project is moving forward when this completes then it will be easy for China to attack deep into India, pakistan, iran, turkey and into Europe . Modi will goad then surrender territory to China and then call for boycott of china goods whilst giving multi-million contracts to China's CCP party . Osho was right India is a nation of cowards and two faced people. This is the reward for attacking Harmandir Sahib, killing sant lok and making Gursikhs miserable - destruction by Akal Purakh.

This was posted 10 years ago but It seems to be a possibility in the the near future, more convincing now than it was 10 years ago. Is this included in Dasam Bani as well? The Hindu is full of hankhar today, blinded by it. Hankar is the beginning of the end. Also, insulting Gurus, holy men and prophets has become a norm for Hindus, especially extremist Hindus. The amount of nindiya you see Hindus doing of holy men is alarming. The things they say about the Muslim prophet, Jesus, Mary, and our Gurus is shocking. Its twisted, perverted and sick. Even by accidently reading it you feel like you have committed 100 sins. Far too much paap is building up in that country. I think history is soon gnna repeat itself in India, they've had a couple of decades of "freedom"

Unfortunately the alcohol never really goes away even when you stop drinking. It just takes some triggers, and then its in your mind again, whether if you act upon it becomes your choice.

Bingo.It's the panj doot concentrated into a bottle. Chriss Cornell's of the band Audioslave quote.He committed suicide by hanging.

he was a very very talented singer.

Alcoholics can be helped if they themselves want to get clean but would need professional support as she might require medication to handle withdrawal symptoms.The problem with alcohol is its legality and easy availability that makes it harder to quit. What a wicked woman!

You might regret marrying someone completely outside of your ethnicity/culture - not now, but maybe in 10, or 20 years time or when you are in your retired years. Especially if she does not take to Sikhi

This would have been better in the news/politics forum As far as I know, he wasn't a Sikh, but RIP

Pooran ka Khooh (The well of Bhagat Puran) still exists in Sialkot today. The visitors there are more or less muslims who go there to pray for Bhagat Poorans benevolence in getting a son. I think Qawwalli is sung there daily, if memory serves correct.

Sakhis help visually drive a message home.

While the above is true, I think it is only one aspect of Gurbani. That means that while Gurbani is applicable in different scenarios, it also addresses the events of those times. Gurbani has a lot of layers. Honestly, the quote above is a typical way to make an argument that Dasam Granth isn't legit: which he has done - https://sikhivicharforum.org/category/truth-of-bng-dsm-granth/ He also did Ninda of Bhai Vir Singh and Kavi Santokh SIngh - https://sikhivicharforum.org/2018/09/18/the-hijackers-of-sikhi-4/ Tbh, we need to be wary of these types of arguments. yeah its hardly surprising he is anti Dasam Bani. I think these peoples faces should be spread everywhere so people know who they are.

Take your time, read and digest my rebuttal to his work. It is lengthy but worth knowing when you come up against people like daktar karminder phd boston and his pet rats on Sick Parasite Network.

Thanks for sharing bro, I've never seen him before but I watched the first 10 mins of the video and had a feeing he was a missionary.

Fully agree

While the above is true, I think it is only one aspect of Gurbani. That means that while Gurbani is applicable in different scenarios, it also addresses the events of those times. Gurbani has a lot of layers. This is the answer to Karminders nonsense: Then the great doctor goes on to write "Gurbani is Sarab Sanji; by which is meant it is NEVER occasion, location, era or person specific. This means that while Gurbani is always composed at some location, may be composed to draw from specific occasions, and may be uttered in the presence of person or persons – the composition is NEVER MEANT for any specific location, any particular occasion or for a certain person(s). ALL of Gurbani is composed for use in ALL locations, ALL occasions, ALL eras and ALL persons. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the WHOLE of humanity throughout time. Specifying Gurbani for specific locations, occasions and person(s) is a human failing. It arises from our failure to explore the true spiritual messages of Gurbani. It originates out of our folly of wanting to understand Gurbani only in the literal sense." Here is the doctor is partially correct. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the whole of humanity throughout time. However Gurbani is not restricted from, neither does it abandon the "uthanka" or background to such writings. Gurbani has many levels, and the historical aspect of Gurbani is also valid. Coming back on the great doctors thought that Gurbani is never occasion, location era or person specific, I would like to bring these lines of shabads to the reader so they can see if doctor karminder is correct.: ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪੰਖ ਪਰਾਹੁਣੀ ਦੁਨੀ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਬਾਗੁ ॥ Bhagat Farid Ji Maharaj bani starts a lot with "Farida" where he is telling/educating himself. Did BHagat Ji tell these with others in mind? Possibly but the immediate instruction is to himself. So in the first instance this gurbani and many others of Bhagat Ji are person specific. But when we read them are WE telling Bhagat Farid what he must do, in order to find God?" ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Aasaa, Fifth Mehla: ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥ First, they advised me to send a letter. ਦੁਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਉ ॥ Second, they advised me to send two men. ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਉ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Third, they advised me to make the effort and do something. ਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਹੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ But I have renounced everything, and I meditate only on You, God. ||1|| This shabad by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj is person specific. Which Sikh who has read this shabad sent a letter and then subsequently two men? To whom did he send them? ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਾਲਨ ਪਉਢੀਅਲੇ ॥ Says Naam Dayv, listen, O Trilochan: the child is laid down in the cradle. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਬਿਰੂਧੀ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ Its mother is at work, inside and outside, but she holds her child in her thoughts. ||4||1|| Here Bhagat Ji is addressing Bhagat Trilochan directly. It's still a lesson that we as humans use, but the fact is that it is not addressed to us all at that specific time. It was specifically to one person. ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਪੁਤ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਮੇਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਆਉ ਮੈ ਪਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ Listen O my Sikhs, my children and Siblings of Destiny; it is my Lord's Will that I must now go to Him. ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ The Guru gladly accepted the Lord's Will, and my Lord God applauded Him. So when we read the above lines from Ramkali Sadd, are we assuming the title and rank of Guru? Or is it Sunder saying it for a specific moment in the Guru's Life? From the above few lines it is apparent that Gurbani does not share Doctor karminders views of what gurbani should be.

This man Karminder is a malaysian missionary parasite. He is a nindak of everything from Sri Dasme Patshah's granth Sahib to naam simran to every single sakhi there is on Sikhi. That should be the least of your concerns brother. Focus on the lies coming out his mouth first. Read this rebuttal I wrote some years ago to his Babur Bani lies: (https://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/19698-sick-parasite-network-spn-ਜੈਸੀ-ਮੈ-ਆਵੈ-ਖਸਮ-ਕੀ-ਬਾਣੀ/ (It is quite long) This is another shabad that has come on the Sick Parasite Network, written by a learned doctor of that site - "Dr Karminder Dhillon." He is a great inspiration to his pet rat aman, who is an admin on that site, and is always looking to host his mentors thoughts on that forum. I want to have a look at some of this great doctors thoughts and add my own thoughts to it. I will be posting the great doctors thoughts in black and my own in blue so readers can distinguish. Dr Karminder starts by saying " Shabd is composed by Guru Nanak ji in Tilang Rag and is recorded on page 722 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji." This Shabd stands high on the list of “wrongly translated Shabds." I always wonder how did the Panth manage to follow the wrong translations for centuries until Sikhs of Dr karminders calibre were born to take us out of the darkness and into the light. The Shabd is further (wrongly) described as “Babbur Vanee” by many translators. Babbur Vanee means it is composed for and narrated to Mogul conqueror Babur. Babur Vanee further means it predicts the end of the Mogul rule in India. - Babar Bani is just an informal title given to it, to distinguish it from the other shabads. When we hear the name "Babar Bani" then we understand it to be talking about this particular shabad. That is all. There is no conspiracy. Just as the "Lavan" shabads haven't been given the title of "Lavan Bani" but whenever we talk about the "Lavan" it is clearly understood that we are talking about which shabads. Similarly there are many shabads by Guru Nanak Dev Ji which are addressed with the word "Vanjara" in them. These also are not titled "Vanjara banis" but we understand them to be about the Vanjara shabads of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. You can see from the above thoughts of the great doctor, the depth of intellect, and the reasons why he is has god-like status on Sick Parasite Network. Then the great doctor goes on to write "Gurbani is Sarab Sanji; by which is meant it is NEVER occasion, location, era or person specific. This means that while Gurbani is always composed at some location, may be composed to draw from specific occasions, and may be uttered in the presence of person or persons – the composition is NEVER MEANT for any specific location, any particular occasion or for a certain person(s). ALL of Gurbani is composed for use in ALL locations, ALL occasions, ALL eras and ALL persons. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the WHOLE of humanity throughout time. Specifying Gurbani for specific locations, occasions and person(s) is a human failing. It arises from our failure to explore the true spiritual messages of Gurbani. It originates out of our folly of wanting to understand Gurbani only in the literal sense." Here is the doctor is partially correct. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the whole of humanity throughout time. However Gurbani is not restricted from, neither does it abandon the "uthanka" or background to such writings. Gurbani has many levels, and the historical aspect of Gurbani is also valid. Coming back on the great doctors thought that Gurbani is never occasion, location era or person specific, I would like to bring these lines of shabads to the reader so they can see if doctor karminder is correct.: ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪੰਖ ਪਰਾਹੁਣੀ ਦੁਨੀ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਬਾਗੁ ॥ Bhagat Farid Ji Maharaj bani starts a lot with "Farida" where he is telling/educating himself. Did BHagat Ji tell these with others in mind? Possibly but the immediate instruction is to himself. So in the first instance this gurbani and many others of Bhagat Ji are person specific. But when we read them are WE telling Bhagat Farid what he must do, in order to find God?" ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Aasaa, Fifth Mehla: ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥ First, they advised me to send a letter. ਦੁਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਉ ॥ Second, they advised me to send two men. ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਉ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Third, they advised me to make the effort and do something. ਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਹੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ But I have renounced everything, and I meditate only on You, God. ||1|| This shabad by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj is person specific. Which Sikh who has read this shabad sent a letter and then subsequently two men? To whom did he send them? ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਾਲਨ ਪਉਢੀਅਲੇ ॥ Says Naam Dayv, listen, O Trilochan: the child is laid down in the cradle. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਬਿਰੂਧੀ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ Its mother is at work, inside and outside, but she holds her child in her thoughts. ||4||1|| Here Bhagat Ji is addressing Bhagat Trilochan directly. It's still a lesson that we as humans use, but the fact is that it is not addressed to us all at that specific time. It was specifically to one person. ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਪੁਤ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਮੇਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਆਉ ਮੈ ਪਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ Listen O my Sikhs, my children and Siblings of Destiny; it is my Lord's Will that I must now go to Him. ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ The Guru gladly accepted the Lord's Will, and my Lord God applauded Him. So when we read the above lines from Ramkali Sadd, are we assuming the title and rank of Guru? Or is it Sunder saying it for a specific moment in the Guru's Life? From the above few lines it is apparent that Gurbani does not share Doctor karminders views of what gurbani should be. The great doctor karminder then writes : "We shall start by looking at the final verse ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥ ੨ ॥ Sach Kee Banee Nanak Akhey Sach Sunayesee Sach Kee Bella. Sach – The Creator. Sach Kee Banee – God Connecting Banee. Akhey – Pronounces. Sunayesee – Discourses. Bella – Time. Sach Kee Bella – Creator Given Time; Lifetime as Given by the Creator; ALL times, forever. Nanak Pronounces God Connecting Banee and Conducts Godly Discourse at every God Given Moment." This is entirely his own interpretation. How do we know this is wrong? Because Guru Sahib conducted his life in as one whole given moment in God. But yet Guru Sahib still slept, travelled, worked etc. During these times how was Guru Sahib conducting Godly discourse? Guru Sahib only conducted Godly discourse at certain times and places. Lets look at Prof Sahib Singh's interpretation: ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ = ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ। ਆਖੈ = ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ = ਸੁਣਾਂਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਆਖਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ। ਬੇਲਾ = ਸਮਾ, ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ ਸਮਾ। ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ = ਸਿਮਰਨ, ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸਮਾ ਹੈ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥ (ਜੀਵ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਉਮਰ ਅਜਾਈਂ ਗਵਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ) ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾਂ (ਇਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਭੀ) ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਹੀ) ਇਹ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ ਸਮਾ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੈ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥ Faridkoti teeka translates it as : ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਸਚੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ (ਬਾਣੀ) ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਂਧੁਰਿ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈਂ (ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ) ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕੀ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਵੇਰੇ ਸੋ ਸਚ ਹੀ ਅਸੀ ਸੁਣਾਂਵਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਔ ਸੁਣਾਵੈਂਗੇ॥੨॥੫॥ Dr Sant Singh Khalsa in english translates this as : Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5|| Now what karminder is saying is somewhat based on these but he gives a confused message to the reader. "Nanak Pronounces God Connecting Banee..." since when did Guru Nanak pronounce any bani that wasn't god connecting? karminder is trying to confuse the reader by saying that Guru Sahib at times, prounced gurbani that wasn't god-connecting. Dr. Karminder Singh Dhillion Phd(Boston) then further writes about the whole shabad and towards the end says : "TWELVETH VERSE ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ Avan Athathrey Jaan Satanvey Hor Bhee Uthsee Marad Ka Chela. Avan – Coming. Athathrey – 78. Jaan – Goes. Satanvey – 97. Hor – More, Many, Others. Bhee – Also. Uthsee – Raise, Come to the forefront. Marad – Male, Masculine, Man-liness. Chela – Disciple, Follower, Subscriber. This is the verse that has been subject to a great deal of wrong translations. A Commentary is therefore necessary to first critique the existing faulty translations. The (wrong) translation is: Coming in seventy-eight (1578 Sammat, 1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1597 Sammat, 1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up. (Sant Singh MD D Translation.) Other translators – Prof Sahib Singh, and Manmohan Singh mention Emperor Babur as coming in 1578 and being defeated by Sher Shah Suree in 1597. The Fareedkot Vedic Teeka says “the Moghuls will come in 1578 and go in 1597 and that the “Mard Ka Chela” refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji. COMMENT ONE: All the above translators translate the words ATHUTREY (78) and SATANVEY (97) to mean 1579 and 1597 Bikarmee. How the 15 came to be added is anyone’s guess. Because 15 is NOT mentioned in the Verse, If we want to add 15 on our own, why not 1478 and 1479? Or 1678 and 1679? After “assuming” that 79 and 97 is 1579 and 1597 Sammat respectively the years are then converted by the translators from Bikarmee (Indian calendar) to the western year 1521 and 1540 AD. Then the translators say these are the years Babur came to Saidpur 1521 AD (where the massacre took place) and that Babur WILL GO in 1540 AD." According to the great daktors thinking, the translation including the "15" is wrong. I can't beleive how Boston is handing out PHD willy nilly. I should get one. The text in Gurbani says 78 and 97 but if we are reading or understanding this 5 centuries later we need to add that "15" to know what time period we are talking about. For example, when we talk about partition now, we can just refer to it as 47. As I ask old people "Where you alive in 47?" Everyone knows that this is a direct reference to 1947 because 2047 hasn't happened yet. But in 500 years time will people still refer to it as 47? No, because it will not be clear. They will refer to it as 1947. The commentators on this line of Gurbani have correctly added the 15 to make it clearer for the reader. So the great PHD doctor starts off on a very weak foot here. "SEVEN BASIC things are WRONG with such translations. 1) They show Guru Nanak making a PREDICTION of worldly matters (that Babar or Mogul Raj WILL go in 1540 AD). Our Gurus never do such. Predicting the future is not a Gurmat Principle." Predicting the future for a Sikh is not gurmat principle, but for the Guru it is no effort. Guru Sahib has correctly told of the going of (end of) the moghals. So given that this shabad is focused entirely on an actual historical event, seen in the first person by the Guru, and written about factually by the Guru, it is unable to be refuted by the great PHD doctor karminder that it is against gurmat principles. We Sikhs are not the same as the Guru. Guru Gobind Singh Ji drew his sword and asked for 5 heads. Why don't Sikhs do that same thing now when doing khande ki pahul sinchar? Simple. We are Sikhs, the Guru is the Guru. "2) Such translations make spiritually rich Gurbani into a ocassion specific “historical” narrative. This is never the nature of Gurbani. Gurbani is SARAB SANJHEE – for ALL ocassion, all persons, all locations etc. Most importantly Gurbani is spiritual." This has been answered above in the composition of Ramkali Sadd. Ramkali Sadd IS a specific historical narrative. So it is very apparent that Doctor Karminder Dhillon PHD Boston is wrong. The majority of Gurbani is spiritual but not all. "3) Such translations portray Guru Nanak as inconsistent. The translator says Guru Nanak depicts the “CRUELTY of Babur to innocent women and children” and YET calls BABUR as a MARD !! How is Babur an invader a MARD? And whose CHELA? What’s so MARD about massacring innocent people?" Mard in persian means "man." That is all. Guru Sahib describes Babar as a man. Nothing else regarding his military prowess, personal habits, political standing etc. Chela means follower. All Guru Sahib is stating here is that one of Babar's followers will take his place. "4) Such translations makes it seem that Guru Nanak got his history wrong !!! Babur entered India in 1526 AD. The battle of Panipat took place in 1526. That’s the year he becomes emperor. So the massacre in Saidpur was AFTER 1526. The year 1521 AD for ATHUTREY by the translator is off by 5 years! How could Guru Nanak have made this mistake? Babur died on Dec 26 1530. So the year 1540 AD for ATHANVEY (the year Babur left Saidpur !!) is off by 10 years!! He was already in his grave." The first thing to note here is the Gurbani mentions no names. The line is " ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ." There is no reference to Babar in name but as the shabad tells us the "wedding party" came from Khorasan at the same time Babar did, we know it is refering to Babur and his Mongol army. All the Gurbani tells us is that "they came in 78 (1521) and will return in 1540. So this has nothing to do with the lifetime of Babur itself. That is a very important thing to note here. This is where the PHD Boston of Karminder Dhillon has erred. Babur actually entered Panjab way before in 1519 according to his autobiography. He scored victories and took some land but then had to return to Kabul to quell a rebellion there. His meagre force left in Panjab was then defeated in an uprising. He re-entered Panjab in 1521. The sacking of Saidpur was in 1526. It could hardly be called a battle. There was feeble or no resistance at all. Babur had used Saidpur as a warning to those who stood in his way. he made an example of Saipur to show the rulers of Hindustan his ruthlessness. The Rt Hon Doctor karminder dhillon PHD Boston then writes: "The shabd is wholly spiritual. It uses multiple metaphors – marriage, junj, joree, daan, mighty human beings, power full beings etc etc. Guru ji also used IDIOMS. We need to understand the context of these metaphors and get to the spiritual messages. That is how we interpreted the entire Shabd as above. This particular verse is NO EXCEPTION. In English we may say SCORES come and DOZENS go. One score is 20. And one dozen is 12. This means whatever is being referred to comes and goes APLENTY. IT DOES NOT mean someone particular came in 1820 and went in 1912!!!! In our everyday language we say SAU AIYE TEY SAU GAYEY. SAU is one hundred. Or TEREY VARGEY KAYEE HAZAAR DEKHEY. Or TEREY VARGEY CHATEE (36) AIYEY. These numbers are used idiomatically to portray unspecific multitudes. The shabd uses the numbers BOTH idiomatically to portray MULTITIDES and poetically to be within the poetic confines of the verses before and after. ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ Avan Athathrey Jaan Satanvey Hor Bhee Uthsee Marad Ka Chela. Avan – Coming. Athathrey – 78, metaphor for unspecified multiples. Jaan – Goes. Satanvey – 97; metaphor for unspecific multiples. Hor – More, Many, Others. Bhee – Also. Uthsee – Raise, Come to the forefront. Marad – Male, Masculine. Chela – Disciple, Follower, Believer, Worshipper. Unspecified Multiples Will Come and Multiple More Will Depart as Worshippers of Masculine Prowess. (Yet the Hukm of the Creator Will Remain as Permanent). " To me, this just sums up the clutching of straws to build up a straw man argument. Using a specific non rounded number is NOT part of everyday talk. We use, and indeed Gurbani uses numbers like a hundred, thousands, and lakhs etc. But it never uses numbers like 78, 97, 146, 2685, 743872 etc. Using rounded numbers to portray a particular aspect or point is normal in any language. But to try and use "78" and "97" for unspecified numbers is just nonsensical. But those rats like that admin aman on SPN live for this kind of nonsense. The great doctor then ends with some of his musings on what gurbani should be with : "COMMENT ON THE NOTION OF SARAB SANJHEE BANEE. When we say Gurbanee is NEVER occasion, location, time or person specific – we are saying the messages are NOT meant for a particular location, occasion, time or individual. We are saying ALL of Gurbani is meant for ALL of humanity for ALL times." Again this is not bourne out by the inclusion of Ramkali Sadd. Although there is great teachings in that shabad for the benefit of humankind, there is no denying that the writing was an occasion and person specific event. I wonder why it is, that these PHD's and ilk feel that there is a need to distort each and every aspect of Gurmat to their own particular thoughts. We had Angy on here some months ago doing it, and they have no shame in doing it. Plenty have. I have on Sick Parasite Network, but they only ban you when barmy karmy is exposed. Did you? And what did you find ?

He wrote an article about this that I read recently: https://sikhivicharforum.org/2020/01/17/khursan-khasmana-kiya-ਖੁਰਾਸਾਨ-ਖਸਮਾਨਾ-ਕੀਆ/#more-2774 What I think he means when he says that there are no sakhis is that: While the above is true, I think it is only one aspect of Gurbani. That means that while Gurbani is applicable in different scenarios, it also addresses the events of those times. Gurbani has a lot of layers. Honestly, the quote above is a typical way to make an argument that Dasam Granth isn't legit: which he has done - https://sikhivicharforum.org/category/truth-of-bng-dsm-granth/ He also did Ninda of Bhai Vir Singh and Kavi Santokh SIngh - https://sikhivicharforum.org/2018/09/18/the-hijackers-of-sikhi-4/ Tbh, we need to be wary of these types of arguments.

Good luck to you, but don't allow yourself to get too enamoured at this stage. Use your head, not just your heart. I know a few Punjabis who got caught out by Chinan girls. These Chinans said all the right things at first, but as soon as marriage was done and dusted, they took the husband away from his family, and basically isolated and started gaslighting him. To understand why they do this, you'll need to appreciate some facts about the Chinese mentality and demeanour.

Another story which I really like is the story of Pooran Bhagat. His father, a local king, married a second wife, she was much younger than the old king and was a similar age to Pooran. The second wife then got attracted to pooran and tried to get it on with him. Pooran being a saintly young man said to the young Queen that despite her young age, in rishta she is equal to his mother. The young Queen got furious and told the king that Pooran tried raping her. The king was infatuated with his young wife and believed everything she said, and he ordered his son, Pooran, to be thrown into a well. Pooran was saved by Gorkhanath saint and became a saint himself. Years went past and the young Queen was still childless. Someone told her and the King that at the local mela a holy man sits there and he makes everyone's wishes comes true. The Queen and King then went to the mela and when it was their turn it turned out that the holy man was no other but Pooran himself, the very son that the King threw into the well after the Queen lied and accused him of raping her. Both the King and Queen apologised and Pooran gave his father blessings and the couple had a son. Sometimes the people that you bring down, are the ones that you go running to for help, years later. I believe this story is in Charitropakhyan as well.

I would suggest that listening or reading Dr Vandana Shiva's work on environmental issues in India and food /water security is a must for sikhs as it cuts straight to the heart of what is detroying Punjab's fertility and health not to mention future . https://climateandcapitalism.com/2011/06/08/vandana-shiva-the-great-land-grab-indias-war-on-farmers/ https://williambowles.info/2021/02/05/bill-gates-and-neo-feudalism-a-closer-look-at-farmer-bill/ important point for Indians 'Gates funds Diversity Seek (DivSeek), a global project he launched in 2015 to map the genomes and genome sequences of the peasant seed stocks held in seed banks. DivSeek and Gates Ag One are the tips of his spears, “mining” seed data to “censor” out the commons. In other words — to terminate the public’s ownership claims.' ' Gates’ principal objective is to breed Green Revolution varieties engineered to respond to chemical inputs produced by Gates’ “Poison Cartel” partners: Monsanto, Bayer, Dow/DuPont, CropLife, BASF, Syngenta, Corteva, etc. In short, Gates deliberately robs the seed of its integrity and diversity, erasing evolutionary history and its links to the soil, reducing it all to a simple “code.” In this way, Gates captures our planet’s genetic diversity, rewrites it, patents its code, steals the seeds from humanity and marries them off to the chemical conglomerates. By centralizing the Seed Banks and manipulating intellectual property laws, Gates has launched a campaign of “genetic colonialism” to rob the world’s peasants and indigenous farmers of their hard-earned seeds and knowledge.'

the luddites were protecting their individual familiy's existence and bread against the cheaper imported cotton of India and the mechanised looms . They knew that it was the loot of farmers just like themselves from elsewhere that propped up the millowners business and the millowners also were demanding their children to work the dangerous machinery . It is always the poor that get exploited to feed the rich's greed

I wouldn't fall into the trap of thinking goreh are lofty beings immune to the lure of material things. Having worked with them for the past couple of years they tend to demand maximum rates for the least expenditure of effort on their part. It's not just one or a few; it's across the board. They just happen to be very good at deflecting attention from their greed through banter and a cheery demeanour whereas apne have that beady-eyed determination to accumulate, lacking the necessary social graces to mask our bhokh. It's what the English use to refer as breeding, i.e. the central issue isn't the moral sentiment itself, but having the class to conceal one's intentions.

agree with that. it has been like this since Guru ji time too. majority of us choose to go with the flow. I just don't like the idea of capitalism. and maybe saying this makes me hypocritical but there's nothing wrong with having an opinion and working on it. bro

a decent talk and I agree we need to stop listening to those who wish us to think small

well what does it take to be a khalsa ? rehit, study of all granths and faiths but full faith in our own, learn as many languages and cultures as possible , be educated and aware of the world, ecologically conscious and protective of the voiceless environment, learn herbal and ayurvedic medicine , shastar vidhiya, learn to play an instrument to accompany kirtan (learn raag) , learn rajniti of others and be strategic thinkers and that is a basic skill set . If we had huge groups of such people , how could we not suceed? if people are worried about a country on principles of halemi raj rather than capitalistic/communistic mess that has tortured the planet maybe they don't realise just how they would be swapping uncertainty for the kknowledge that your community would be working to make sure of deg teg fateh , their children would have education as a right and of a quality that would include character trait development that will create positive and industrious people for the future. Alcohol and drugs habituation has been the down fall of our panth time and again , we should stick to our Guru's model this time . People will be grateful for freedom from violence , arguments, accidents and infidelities/ rapes caused by alcohol/drug consumption , the world is going to need leaders with different thinking to the neoliberals/communists why not try it before knocking it ? Just as we don't let outsiders tell us how we have to change Guru Maryada for humans' weaknesses why would we knock down Guru ji's way ?

This discussion is not a debate it is a discussion of teaching people the words of Sants and of Japji Sahib. If you don't agree that is okay then don't read.

No, it's just a really dear friend... ?

By forgot I mean not recite. The person forgots Japji and lives in Maya

there is a community of Tamil speaking sikhs from Punjab out there , just need to get them on board to help increase commincation and outreach. From what I have read Tamils are more amenable to Guru ji's message of equality and brotherhood .

I bet BJP is sending out their henchmen as we speak to "persuade" them to change their plans. Anna hazaare was about to start his fast before BJP Davendra Fadnavas paid him a visit.

Not foot. Feet. Mecca moved to wherever the Qazi moved Guru Sahib's feet. Haven't heard that one. Will look into it. My dear neighbour, who would need a counter argument when the best scholars of Islam never had an argument in the first place? That is MY fault. It is the fault of EVERY Sikh on this forum, in the street you live in, in the cities they inhabit and the countries they reside in. Guru Nanak gave us (and you) the message, yet because of our (sikh) weaknesses we have not be able to take them to a level or audience they deserve. Yes for many reasons. One is that the sword is never to attack to but to defend. This mentality had to be drummed into Sikhs first. But you didn't get your degree with your nursery teacher when you were 3 or 4 years old did you? You went to different schools, had many teachers for 18 odd years before you were rewarded with your degree. That is the same with Gurmat. The birth and strengthening of Gurmat could not be confined to one man's lifetime. But I could aslo ask you, why the best of planners, Allah needed to send 124,999 prophets before he send the best one. Before he, the best of planners after thousands of years sent the "perfect example of man" to guide others. Why not just have this perfect example as the first and only ? Surely that would have been the best of planning yes?

I think a few of the so-called 'higher-caste' apnay struggled with that in the past, and it shows in their extant writing. Hell, some apnay still struggle with that today. lol

All these ill-talkers have no idea what they are saying. If I sat with them (or any of us sangat) about the reality they would be so sorry and ask for maafi, they don't even know the fundamentals of what a Sikh should be, how can go go about and judge Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale who stood up for dharam just like the Singhs and Guru Sahiban did in the old times. The Khalsa was created to ensure the Singhs had such power vested in each individual. Watch the video for yourself, he was accused then, of course slanderers will come out now. They're horrible people. By actually seeing what Sant Ji stood for they wouldn't make that mistake.

What is the general concensus regarding this situation? I started researching the life of Sant Jarnali Singh Ji last year after realising I knew next to nothing about the truth. I have also come across this point of view from certain loyal Sikhs who - although they don't admit it openly - believe he was a prophet. I personally don't know what to think. What I do know (by listening to Sant Ji's various kathas and watching their videos) is that Sant Ji would never position himself in such a way. Its contradictory to everything he taught the sangat. I don't know. If he was, then I would have no choice but to believe if I considered myself a true Sikh. He certainly left his mark on Sikhi until the end of time - no other Sikh of modern times has made such an everlasting impression. But I'm afraid to say that my heart doesn't give me the confidence to say that Sant Ji was our 11th Guru. I just can't forget the words of Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji when he proclaimed that there would be no more human Gurus. Some other opinions or points of view would be welcome. Forgive me if my words have offended anybody but I've written with nothing but respect and humility.

I personally can't relate to that, but I have seen it in my family/relatives. The results are devastating. It's happening with my one of my cousin sisters atm she spends months living around her friends house to avoid her mother. But now she's going get a flat for herself. In fact she's even considering moving across the Atlantic to avoid her mother. Her mother says things like that she never wanted her and that she wanted a son instead, and that she was a mistake etc her mother says things like that she hopes her daughter never settles and ends up in a bad marriage. One of the saddest cases in my family is another cousin sister of mine who has been disowned by the family. I actually was very close to her, but I'm not allowed to talk to her anymore. Her mother was very abusive towards her. My cousin was a lot older than me, like 14 years, so I never saw her childhood but my mum has told me about it. Her mother actually used to physically torture her. When she was a kid her mother hit her head with her high heel shoe. She ended up with a hole in her head, that's the kind of stuff her mother used to do to her. My cousin then ended up hanging around with wrong people and picked up wrong habits which eventually started destroying her. But I never judged her. She was really honest with me and trusted me. As I got older and started seeing how toxic their relationship was, it was terrible! Her mother used to call her things like h*ramdi etc Her family eventually disowned her. It's been like 5 years now. In the past I've felt like finding out where she is and meeting up with her. But if my family find out I would be in a lot of trouble. Plus unfortunately her habits have got worse. She has our phone number and sometimes rings us, she asks for me but my mother cuts the phone. I've known both these abusive mothers since I was kid, and there definitely is something very wrong with them. I can't figure out what it is, or where it went wrong. They lack sympathy, lack in faith. Abusive mothers are far more destructive than abusive fathers. We as a community, culturally, glorify the relationship between mothers and kids, but that is not the case for many.

No , you said the following, meaning if I don't memorize Japji Sahib I'm useless. What i want to know is, where does Guru Ji say this. 'Kavi Santhok Singh Ji says about Japji Sahib In the way a rice husk is useless without a grain of rice, a Sikh is useless without having memorized Japji Sahib.'

Where are your sources for this? You are now talking about the trinity, which in itself opens up a whole different subject.

Can you lot grow up and watch the entire video, before jumping to conclusions. I know Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is the truth and I also believe there is no sakhis within. Now let's take Sidth Ghoste for example no story actually fact history and wisdom. Some people define the term 'stories' as made up and some define the term as historical events. Both definitions are correct, I use 'stories' as made up. There is one great book if you love stories. It is known as 'The greatest story ever told' Also don't resort to name calling even if you don't agree with someone, its childish.

That's a shame. I use to listen to his songs when driving. In fact he was a favourite of Punjabi long-haul and taxi drivers. Songs of lost loves and broken hearts in the pind. Pleasant, mournful voice. EDIT: Just realised I was thinking of Durga Rangila not Sardool Sikander. I got them mixed up.

Sakhi King, try spending more time on understanding Gurbani, than continously reading Sakhi's.