2nd Generation Sikh Fanaticism

[singh_comradz]

all the singhni's i know wear dastaar's by their own choice.

in my opinion i think it looks good :TH:

and whats this about the girls who have 'beard and moustache's'?

i certainly can't recall seeing any

but even if there are then RESPECT to them for adhering to rehit and just

because surreal wouldn't get married to a girl with abit of facial hair doesn't mean

anyone else wouldn't.

true what you say surreal in regard to the problems we face ie gurdwara's

named after caste BUT we shouldn't judge sikhi because of the faults of a few.

and most if not all gursikhs i have met have never LECTURED me or called me a non-sikh or outsider. rather i've always recieved ENCOURAGED and INSPIRATION and i've always been treated as an equal.

i call myself a sikh where others may not. we can call ourselves whatever but in Maharaj's eyes i belive that it may well be a different story

as for the handful who have fought for sikhi. hundreds of thousands of shaheed have

laid down their lives for th quam. just because we're told of a few illustrative

examples doesn't mean thats all there was. baba deep singh fought with his head severed, bhindranwale and his men held out in the burning heat of the akal takht for days without water not to mention countless others. these khalsa have achieved what normal people could not. thats the magic of amrit and keeping rehit.

these Gursikhs have followed Satguru ji's hukam. for the rest of us non-amritdhari's it's something that we can at least aspire to but our decisions and the paths we choose to follow rest within ourselves.

bhul chuk maaf

[Sher Khalsa]

You said Bibian wearing dastaars is a recent thing????

do some research man... its always been like that, its just the in the last while people have gotten away from it....

You dont think Mai Bhago, wore a dastaar?

And you say dastaars dont look good on bibian... thats your own opinion.. its not a fact... you seem really closed minded, u talk about being open minded but you think that your view is how the world views things...

look at this tuks from SGGS JI....

1. Page74 Line 9 Raag Sriraag: Guru Arjan Dev

mY gur imil auc dumwlVw ]

mai gur mil ouch dhumaalarraa ||

I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

2. Page330 Line 2 Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

ijh isir ric ric bwDq pwg ]

jih sir rach rach baadhhath paag ||

That head which was once embellished with the finest turban

3. Page470 Line 17 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

duie DoqI bsqR kpwtM ]

dhue dhhothee basathr kapaattan ||

upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths.

4. Page659 Line 5 Raag Sorith: Saint Ravidas

bMky bwl pwg isir fyrI ]

bankae baal paag sir ddaeree ||

You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.

5. Page727 Line 17 Raag Tilang: Saint Nam Dev

KUbu qyrI pgrI mITy qyry bol ]

khoob thaeree pagaree meethae thaerae bol ||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

None of the above mention gender... A turban is meant for a SIKH whether a male or female...

open your mind, you seem close-minded

[Pheena]

Please read the entire shabad as none of them relate to the point you are trying to prove.

2.  Page330 Line 2  Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

ijh isir ric ric bwDq pwg ]

jih sir rach rach baadhhath paag ||

That head which was once embellished with the finest turban

- upon that head, the crow now cleans his beak. ||1||

so sir chunch savaareh kaag. ||1||

What pride should we take in this body and wealth?

is tan Dhan ko ki-aa garab-ee-aa.

Why not hold tight to the Lord`s Name instead? ||1||Pause||

raam naam kaahay na darirh-ee-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

3.  Page470 Line 17  Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

duie DoqI bsqR kpwtM ]

dhue dhhothee basathr kapaattan ||

upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths.

If you knew the nature of God,

jay jaanas barahmaN karmaN.

you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain.

sabh fokat nischa-o karmaN.

Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith;

kaho naanak nihcha-o Dhi-aavai.

without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. ||2||

vin satgur vaat na paavai. ||2||

4.  Page659 Line 5  Raag Sorith: Saint Ravidas

bMky bwl pwg isir fyrI ]

bankae baal paag sir ddaeree ||

You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.

But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||

ih tan ho-igo bhasam kee dhayree. ||3||

Your palaces are lofty, and your brides are beautiful.

oochay mandar sundar naaree.

But without the Lord`s Name, you shall lose the game entirely. ||4||

raam naam bin baajee haaree. ||4||

5.  Page727 Line 17  Raag Tilang: Saint Nam Dev

KUbu qyrI pgrI mITy qyry bol ]

khoob thaeree pagaree meethae thaerae bol ||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

Where did you come from? Where have You been? And where are You going?

kujaa aamad kujaa raftee kujaa may ravee.

Tell me the truth, in the holy city of Dwaarikaa. ||1||

davaarikaa nagree raas bugo-ee. ||1||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

khoob tayree pagree meethay tayray bol.

Why are there Moghals in the holy city of Dwaarikaa? ||2||

davaarikaa nagree kaahay kay magol. ||2||

None of the above mention gender... A turban is meant for a SIKH whether a male or female...

open your mind, you seem close-minded

Please veer ji read the whole quote, as none of the above quote have anything to do with gender in relation to wearing a turban rather something completly different.

[Sher Khalsa]

You can't put up a good fight, unless you eat meat !

Eat no meat man, and you're wasted. I tried to be a vegetarian for 5 yrs, and I almost totally lost it.

Even the rig vedic hindus used to eat meat. There is a story of Sage Agasthya visiting an Ashram and suddenly all the cows disappear.

113891[/snapback]

Please read the entire shabad as none of them relate to the point you are trying to prove. 

2.  Page330 Line 2  Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

ijh isir ric ric bwDq pwg ]

jih sir rach rach baadhhath paag ||

That head which was once embellished with the finest turban

- upon that head, the crow now cleans his beak. ||1||

so sir chunch savaareh kaag. ||1||

What pride should we take in this body and wealth?

is tan Dhan ko ki-aa garab-ee-aa.

Why not hold tight to the Lord`s Name instead? ||1||Pause||

raam naam kaahay na darirh-ee-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

3.  Page470 Line 17  Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

duie DoqI bsqR kpwtM ]

dhue dhhothee basathr kapaattan ||

upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths.

If you knew the nature of God,

jay jaanas barahmaN karmaN.

you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain.

sabh fokat nischa-o karmaN.

Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith;

kaho naanak nihcha-o Dhi-aavai.

without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. ||2||

vin satgur vaat na paavai. ||2||

4.  Page659 Line 5  Raag Sorith: Saint Ravidas

bMky bwl pwg isir fyrI ]

bankae baal paag sir ddaeree ||

You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.

But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||

ih tan ho-igo bhasam kee dhayree. ||3||

Your palaces are lofty, and your brides are beautiful.

oochay mandar sundar naaree.

But without the Lord`s Name, you shall lose the game entirely. ||4||

raam naam bin baajee haaree. ||4||

5.  Page727 Line 17  Raag Tilang: Saint Nam Dev

KUbu qyrI pgrI mITy qyry bol ]

khoob thaeree pagaree meethae thaerae bol ||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

Where did you come from? Where have You been? And where are You going?

kujaa aamad kujaa raftee kujaa may ravee.

Tell me the truth, in the holy city of Dwaarikaa. ||1||

davaarikaa nagree raas bugo-ee. ||1||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

khoob tayree pagree meethay tayray bol.

Why are there Moghals in the holy city of Dwaarikaa? ||2||

davaarikaa nagree kaahay kay magol. ||2||

None of the above mention gender... A turban is meant for a SIKH whether a male or female...

open your mind, you seem close-minded

Please veer ji read the whole quote, as none of the above quote have anything to do with gender in relation to wearing a turban rather something completly different.

113975[/snapback]

my point was to show that when turban is talked about, no gender is involved...

[sureal69]

You can't put up a good fight, unless you eat meat !

Eat no meat man, and you're wasted. I tried to be a vegetarian for 5 yrs, and I almost totally lost it.

Even the rig vedic hindus used to eat meat. There is a story of Sage Agasthya visiting an Ashram and suddenly all the cows disappear.

113891[/snapback]

Please read the entire shabad as none of them relate to the point you are trying to prove. 

2.  Page330 Line 2  Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

ijh isir ric ric bwDq pwg ]

jih sir rach rach baadhhath paag ||

That head which was once embellished with the finest turban

- upon that head, the crow now cleans his beak. ||1||

so sir chunch savaareh kaag. ||1||

What pride should we take in this body and wealth?

is tan Dhan ko ki-aa garab-ee-aa.

Why not hold tight to the Lord`s Name instead? ||1||Pause||

raam naam kaahay na darirh-ee-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

3.  Page470 Line 17  Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

duie DoqI bsqR kpwtM ]

dhue dhhothee basathr kapaattan ||

upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths.

If you knew the nature of God,

jay jaanas barahmaN karmaN.

you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain.

sabh fokat nischa-o karmaN.

Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith;

kaho naanak nihcha-o Dhi-aavai.

without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. ||2||

vin satgur vaat na paavai. ||2||

4.  Page659 Line 5  Raag Sorith: Saint Ravidas

bMky bwl pwg isir fyrI ]

bankae baal paag sir ddaeree ||

You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.

But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||

ih tan ho-igo bhasam kee dhayree. ||3||

Your palaces are lofty, and your brides are beautiful.

oochay mandar sundar naaree.

But without the Lord`s Name, you shall lose the game entirely. ||4||

raam naam bin baajee haaree. ||4||

5.  Page727 Line 17  Raag Tilang: Saint Nam Dev

KUbu qyrI pgrI mITy qyry bol ]

khoob thaeree pagaree meethae thaerae bol ||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

Where did you come from? Where have You been? And where are You going?

kujaa aamad kujaa raftee kujaa may ravee.

Tell me the truth, in the holy city of Dwaarikaa. ||1||

davaarikaa nagree raas bugo-ee. ||1||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

khoob tayree pagree meethay tayray bol.

Why are there Moghals in the holy city of Dwaarikaa? ||2||

davaarikaa nagree kaahay kay magol. ||2||

None of the above mention gender... A turban is meant for a SIKH whether a male or female...

open your mind, you seem close-minded

Please veer ji read the whole quote, as none of the above quote have anything to do with gender in relation to wearing a turban rather something completly different.

113975[/snapback]

my point was to show that when turban is talked about, no gender is involved...

113977[/snapback]

Thank you Pheena,

Just reading the entire quote takes you away from all these discussions regarding dress and such petty contravercies. When the Granth Sahib mentions Pagri and Sardar, it is meant in a cultural context. In the above context it was meant with respect to who we think we are in life, ie pride etc. and that we should remember where we will be in death. To act accordingly. Please do not attempt to distort the meaning of what was written in order to prove a personal archiac point.

Thank You.

[Pheena]

my point was to show that when turban is talked about, no gender is involved...

113977[/snapback]

I see your point veer, but i don't think the quotes support it.

You can obviously get subtle and in indirect hints from reading the entire verse that Guru is speaking to the male Gender.

For example in the quote below the Guru is speaking to the Kings, not Queens.

bankae baal paag sir ddaeree ||

You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.

But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||

ih tan ho-igo bhasam kee dhayree. ||3||

Your palaces are lofty, and your brides are beautiful.

oochay mandar sundar naaree.

But without the Lord`s Name, you shall lose the game entirely. ||4||

raam naam bin baajee haaree. ||4||

In the quote below it is obvious taht the question is to a Mogul Army leader and as far as i know there were no women leaders of the Mogul army, but then again, im always open to learn something new.

khoob thaeree pagaree meethae thaerae bol ||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

Where did you come from? Where have You been? And where are You going?

kujaa aamad kujaa raftee kujaa may ravee.

Tell me the truth, in the holy city of Dwaarikaa. ||1||

davaarikaa nagree raas bugo-ee. ||1||

How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

khoob tayree pagree meethay tayray bol.

Why are there Moghals in the holy city of Dwaarikaa? ||2||

davaarikaa nagree kaahay kay magol. ||2||

In the other quotes there are no obvious hints regarding to which gender is being adressed. so then the question is were there women during the times of our Gurus that wore Turbans that were needed to be adressed in such a manner? If so then surely you can use the quotes to support your argument, but if not then the Quotes refering to the Turban are addressed to the Male Gender. That is just my take on it.

[Khalsa_starr]

...What I wanted to cover is this seeming fanaticism among young Sikhs raised within western cultures. It seems as if either you’re not sikh or you’re overly sikh...

113780[/snapback]

Sorry, for hopping on the roller coaster, however i have a few words to say.

First of all, you cant be overly sikh - it;s not possible. We should all try to get our fellow sikhs more interested in sikhi. This is not fanaticism, it's just sikh who are trying to encourage others, of course, it's bad to try and force it on another.

1) Facial hair obsession with respect to sikh women. If you’re a girl and you shave or wax then you’re not sikh.

2) If you’re a woman and you don’t wear a turban then you’re not sikh.

3) If you’re a guy and you don’t wear a turban then you’re not a sikh.

4) Numerous references to being guru ji’s prince and princesses?!?!?

113780[/snapback]

If you do shave/cut your body hair, you are not a true sikh, however, you are still a disiple of guru ji. When amritdhari, you must not cut hair anywhere on your body. Singhs and kaurs, what is stopping you from wearing a turban? I mean, who is watching you? I'm always stunned to see sikhs especially boys not wearing dastar or head covering in public - be proud to be sikh!!

I don’t remember the Guru granth sahib chatting about how big someone’s turban is or which aunti has the longest beard. Lets face it, beards, turbans and moustaches on women do not look attractive. Wear either at your own peril, either you will look foolish or worse. If you’ve read this far you’ll be happy to know I'm a guy and I wear a turban and have been a proud sikh for many years.

113780[/snapback]

This quote makes me question whether you really are sikh, your words are very offensive. The reason? Only the world and it's corrupt thinking would view our pure women in that way, womean and men are equal. I honestly hope your not amritdhari

...read and understand the guru granth sahib and then come back and talk to me.

113780[/snapback]

The above statement is a contradiction to what you said before. You were putting down women who don't cutt their hair in the previous paragraph, and then you talk about the SGGS as if you read it and you know it well? Perhaps you should be reading it again! You just insulted the khalsa sureal69...

The rest of your paragraphs is just s***, go back and read the SGGS, and look around at your fellow sikhs before saying such offensive stuff.

-Khalsa starr

[sureal69]

...What I wanted to cover is this seeming fanaticism among young Sikhs raised within western cultures. It seems as if either you’re not sikh or you’re overly sikh...

113780[/snapback]

Sorry, for hopping on the roller coaster, however i have a few words to say.

First of all, you cant be overly sikh - it;s not possible. We should all try to get our fellow sikhs more interested in sikhi. This is not fanaticism, it's just sikh who are trying to encourage others, of course, it's bad to try and force it on another.

1) Facial hair obsession with respect to sikh women. If you’re a girl and you shave or wax then you’re not sikh.

2) If you’re a woman and you don’t wear a turban then you’re not sikh.

3) If you’re a guy and you don’t wear a turban then you’re not a sikh.

4) Numerous references to being guru ji’s prince and princesses?!?!?

113780[/snapback]

If you do shave/cut your body hair, you are not a true sikh, however, you are still a disiple of guru ji. When amritdhari, you must not cut hair anywhere on your body. Singhs and kaurs, what is stopping you from wearing a turban? I mean, who is watching you? I'm always stunned to see sikhs especially boys not wearing dastar or head covering in public - be proud to be sikh!!

I don’t remember the Guru granth sahib chatting about how big someone’s turban is or which aunti has the longest beard. Lets face it, beards, turbans and moustaches on women do not look attractive. Wear either at your own peril, either you will look foolish or worse. If you’ve read this far you’ll be happy to know I'm a guy and I wear a turban and have been a proud sikh for many years.

113780[/snapback]

This quote makes me question whether you really are sikh, your words are very offensive. The reason? Only the world and it's corrupt thinking would view our pure women in that way, womean and men are equal. I honestly hope your not amritdhari

...read and understand the guru granth sahib and then come back and talk to me.

113780[/snapback]

The above statement is a contradiction to what you said before. You were putting down women who don't cutt their hair in the previous paragraph, and then you talk about the SGGS as if you read it and you know it well? Perhaps you should be reading it again! You just insulted the khalsa sureal69...

The rest of your paragraphs is just s***, go back and read the SGGS, and look around at your fellow sikhs before saying such offensive stuff.

-Khalsa starr

113982[/snapback]

I think I've made some valid points even if you've said most if not all my paragraphs are not worth looking at. I want to know where and when this whole thing about women wearing turbans started. Just a simple question, nothing more, threading has been around for a while in Punjab. So do you think sikh women back in the day didn't use threading to remove unwanted facial hair. Or is it this western image concious society that has oppressed women and forces them to conform?

As for me being not a sikh, thats the last bastion of those who have no other argument. Call into question my sikhiness. Whatever. Do better than that.

I've seen women in the gurudwara with a decent size beard doing seva and god bless them for it. But do you think that is what the gurus intended for us no to have a professional looking image?

Once again, I do apologise for my earlier language as I reread some of my comments I do agree they may have caused offense.

Do you agree that Sikhism needs to reach out to its youth and to cultivate a larger following for our religion.

How is that possible if we keep putting more and more outward demands on practising sikhs? I can't imagine many women wanting to joing sikhism if it requires facial hair. I mean if you read the above post, the poor girl didn't even want to leave the house. Is that something you would want to happen to your own daughter, cousin, sister? Its not enough to say that we base this on ego or she shouldn't care what others think. I mean c'mon you can do better than that.

What would be your answer to that poor girl's plight? Then look around and ask yourself who could benefit from a sikh way of life? Then ask yourself what precentage of these people would be able to live life like that? Its absurd.

We are pushing away decent people that could add a great deal towards sikhism by making such demands.

[Paneet Singh]

if it sounds so brhamanfied, why the heck are we not saying anything to the hosts of the site?

gustaphi maaf

113952[/snapback]

Very good point. I think that we should complain to these site people. I will as soon as I get some time.

[UntitledSingh]

I completly agree with you on some points, some Sikhs focus on their outward apearence too much, infact I was one of those Sikhs. I always wanted too look good, but now I really dont care, I have reduced my ego greatly from Gurbani. I think for most Sikhs their hair is important to them not only as Sikhs but as a humans, but its not like we worship our hiars. The dastar is also important not only takes care of our hair, but has become the identity of a Sikh. And Identity is very important, u cant argue with that, just look at history, THe Guru's times, 1947, 1984, ... My sister who cuts her hair, is still a Sikh, she might even be more of a Sikh than me, i cant judge that. The only difference between me and her is that I am a Khalsa Sikh.