A Turbaned Woman at the Grammy's

[Guest SikhForLife]

hah veerji.. actually a keertani did keertan at our gw in 2001.. and he used a hindi film tune.. i didnt know.. cuz i dont listen to that music.. but other ppl did.. and pointed it out..

not trying to defame the keeertani.. i think hes great.. but it has happened..

[Summeet Kaur]

And some of the lives of these Keertanias are too remarkable to read without having tears come to your eyes...

Veerjio,

Do you know about Bhai Manmohan Singh?? He used to apply 'charan dhoor' of sangat to his throat when he was young, praying that his voice become better..He uses proper raag and gets the entire sangat soaked in bani at samagams...

I have heard of gyani's and 'professional ragi jathas' using those tunes, but even professional ragi jathas these days are so fake, I get nothing from listening to them..it's just sadness..There has to be honest preym and bhagti there..see keertan is like seva (like langar) you are PRESENTING/GIVING this to the sangat. You must be pure (clean) INSIDE and out, and prepare/present only with love & understanding..Otherwise anyway can go to the studio and record shabads..

I don't think at a Raisabhai/Samagam anybody would even THINK of playing a hindu tune for a shabad. Most samagams I've been to (either Dodra or AKJ) are mostly played in some raag, many people do it in the correct raag for that shabad, but some don't..they are learning..gur kirpay karay.

Why would 'mummy jee' get upset at him for listening to hindi songs silly brother?

[S1ngh]

it's not raggis fault.. NO WAY .. not even in million years..

I don't blame em.. Blame is on us (Sangat), who gives them like what 500 to 1000 bucks a month and that's why these raggis are trying to mix songs tunes in it cauz they want to impress the sangat for doing a good keertan and in other way around a good $ sewa they will get...

Again.. It's us, not them

[moorakh mugadh]

it's not raggis fault.. NO WAY .. not even in million years..

I don't blame em.. Blame is on us (Sangat), who gives them like what 500 to 1000 bucks a month and that's why these raggis are trying to mix songs tunes in it cauz they want to impress the sangat for doing a good keertan and in other way around a good $ sewa they will get...

Again.. It's us, not them

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

TRUTH

[Niranjana]

GUR FATEH!!!

Further to the responses to my comments on Gurmat Sangeet Maryada, please see the below comments addressing all of your concerns.

MS514, I am not seeking to disrespect anyone here, however, your point on NOT having "heard any Hindi Song tunes being used in Rehansabhais" is invalid given that so many have heard this go on and moreover, as you yourself go on to say, you "go about 2 times a year" –maybe you should consider looking at the sites hosting such keertan and listen to the 'keertan' being done and let me, if this is honestly what you imagine Guru Sahib Ji to have instituted in “Tat-Gurmat Maryada or the most pristine and original form of Sikhism” as these groups claim to follow and preach?

Again, this is not an attack against any group, and whether or not they are "Chardi Kala" Sikhs is besides the point as that is not what is being discussed nor do we (any of us) have the right to judge any individuals relationship with Akal…please stick to the topic and avoid emotional responses –I am not criticising or questioning anyone’s value as a Gursikh, we are talking about GURMAT SANGEET and in this regard my comments continue to hold.

So comments such as like “lives of these Keertanias are too remarkable to read without having tears come to your eyes...” are unwarranted as we are NOT discussing them or their lives. I, as any other Sikh, have total admiration for the deeds of these Gursikhs in our history and for their contribution to the panth, however ths subject matter here is Gurmat Sangeet and not anything else -please let's stick with.

As per Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji, yes I have heard his keertan, however your asserti

on to him using the "proper" raag, is again questionable -he is undoubtedbly a talented singer, however listen to the shabd on this site (Bhai Manmohan Singh Jee 1 -Meri Abhey Benti Sunlee Jay)

http://keertan.waheguroo.com/index.wn?viewCat=477

Now go and listen/watch the classic movie (Bajoo-Bawra) where Mohammed Rafi sings some excellent classical songs and see for yourself the use of "hindi" movie tunes even in the pseudo-classical sphere when used by Rainsubhai Keertanias.

Again, I am not critising Bhai Sahib's value as a Gursikh, he is no doubt far ahead of fools like me, but insofar as the subject matter is concerned, this is outside of Gurmat Sangeet Maryada. So I don't doubt that the sangat is "soaked" by bani at the Samagams, however insofar as keeping matters within the "Tat-Gurmat Maryada" this does not follow through...

Summeet Ji, your comments regarding Gyani/Ragi Jathas today certainly holds true in most cases, but your assertion that no one "would even THINK of playing a hindu tune for a shabad.at a Raisabhai/Samagam" does not unfortunately hold true -again, please see the associated sites for recordings of the two groups you mentioned singing shabds, for which none match your description of being played in the correct raag. [p.s. I presume that you mean Hindi as opposed Hindu tunes? please correct me if I am wrong...in which case, please define what is a "hindu" tune?]

As per people learning, I myself am only learning, however having been to many youth programmes of late, I have seen many young children performing keertan in a very simple and easy manner with all the Sangat participating ALWAYS in the correct raag, and moreover using classical instruments, so this is poor excuse as the same learners are often very committed in other aspects of what they refer to as "Tat Gurmat Maryada" that surely the same effort and zeal can be applied to Keertan, especially if on

e is seeking to play as you state as seva for the Guru Panth Khalsa. (To be honest, these children aged 8-16 are far better Keertanias than myself even if they use the most basic of raag, but their presentation and spirit is most inspiring).

As per S1ngh's comments that "it's not raggis fault.. NO WAY .. not even in million years..", well I've heard this excuse made by too many Keertanias and Ragi Jathas (who in most cases have no real training in Gurmat Sangeet)..."oh, the sangat doesn't like keertan in traditional raags" -this is frankly nonsense to excuse their laziness in putting in effort to learn keertan properly. In my experience, when once in a while a decent Ragi or Keertania does perform keertan at a Gurdwara (Bhai Avtar Singh, Bhai Balbir Singh, Bhai Gurmeet Singh Shaant, Mohan Singh Musapuria to mention a few), the 'entire' Sangat loves the keertan and would much prefer hear keertan in this fashion more regularly.

My comments are not restricted to hearing Hindi film tunes only, the same applies for Shabds sung to the tunes of any non-Gurmat tune, for instance, the use of tunes from songs such as "GT Road tey" and "Put Jatta Dey" for singing Shabds which sadly I have heard many times in Gurdwaras and Keertan programmes.

I have writtten a lot already...forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing,

Niranjana.

[Mkhalsa]

Niranjana, first off you forget that most hindi filmy tunes were ripped from darbar sahib raagis in the early part of last century. Directors and producers from bollywood would go there and record the keertan so that they could use the tunes in their next hits!

Anyway, I have never listened to a hindi song in my life. (except for this strange obsession i had a kid with hey jamallo or something like that) anyway even at family functions i just walk away. Do you know what I hate more than anything? When I am immersed in the colors of gurbani and someone pokes me and says, "hey thats from such and such song/movie, they copied it" WHY DO I CARE?! why ruin my attachment to gurbani with this manmukhi? i dont care, and frankly i dont think anyone else does either.

also, regarding manmohan singh jee.. one time he told me that he does all these fancy raags and everyone says vah vah to his keertan, but his favorite keertani is a singh who does keertan like SDO in simple tunes but with unimaginable pyaar. He said what use is my keertan compared to a gursikh whether he does it in simple tunes or not? Very humble.

I have yet to see a single person, including Bhai Balbir Singh Jee, actually use proper raag. Why? nobody really can do it anymore anyway. first off to hit the right notes its well known you need stringed instruments, vaja can NEVER ever do proper raag.

plus in sachkhand, from what ive heard, raag doesnt matter

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

MKhalsa, your observation regarding the use of string instruments is correct and one will note that the likes of Bhai Avtar Singh not only has individuals in his Jatha or accompanying using such instruments but also is himself a famed exponent of the 'Taus', to say "no-one" can do it properly is a false analysis.

Bhai Avtar Singh comes from a well respected family with lineage of Gurmat Sangeet going back to Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji with both Gurmat Sangeet and influences of Udasi Partals from Bhai Rangi Ram Ji.

As per Bhai Balbir Singh, again he has family lineage going back to Guru Arjan Dev Ji and also uses stringed instruments when performing Gurmat Sangeet Maryada (have a listen to his rendition of Mittar Pyare Noo in Khyal Style).

Again, please don't get me wrong, I am not questioning anyone's individual personality or character, these are observational comments only in view of our heritage, orthodoxy and the attempts by various sangats to follow "Tat Gurmat Maryada". (I may add I may personally fall short of much of this, however the points raised are done so academically or observationally, not as perosonal matters).

As per your comments on the Film producers using keertan from Darbar Sahib, I can't comment on this, however let's get real, the use of tunes from songs such as GT Road Dey, Putt Jatta Dey and the best I recall was hearing a Shabd to the tune of "Kuch Kuch hota hai" -surely this and other modern renditions of tunes wasn't stolen from the Darbar Sahib too -I really doubt any of these even follow Raag (unlike the Film tunes of the calibre used in olden scores such as Baju Bawra).

The is

sue is so much someone nudging you to indicate the use of this or that tune -its a question of follow 'tat gurmat maryada' in this instance with regard to Gurmat Sangeet. There are important aspects to the use of certain Raags over and beyond just having a nice tune and mood -just like the pages of wonderful esoteric values associated with Sarabloh we often find -one could write books upon books over lifetimes on the value and importance of Raag...so why do we discard this which is clearly stated in the Sri Guru -as a HUKAM- however can go to extraordinarily lengths to maintain other aspects of perceived 'Tat Gurmat Maryada'?

For a great collection of such Sahbds have a listen to Bhai Daya Singh's initial works where all the classic tunes from 1960's and 1970's Bollywood have been nicely used for his Album. For the record, I quite like Daya Singh and admire his efforts with young Children as he does move them onto more authentic Keertan as such Bhai Avtar Singh, however the point still holds...if on one hand we seek to follow 'Tat Gurmat Maryada' and critisise the likes of the 'pop-keertan' performed by 3HO members, and yet are quite happy to be doing the same ourselves (afterall, Bollywood and Punjabi Bhangra tunes are simply Desi 'pop' tunes) where does the argument hold up?

Apologies for any foolish comments,

Niranjana.

[Mkhalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyara Veer jee,

I don't know what to say. Dya Singh I do not have much respect for. Especially with his button up kachera and his strange ideas on rehat. He does a lot of good work but at the same time makes bani seem like a meaningless song.

Some western sikhs do it with pyaar and they do it to the best of their ability, thats the only music they know, so who are we to criticize. But what we can criticize is why they do things differently: YOGI. He has warped sikhi in strange ways and I guess its his fault, we cannot blame those gursikhs that do keertan with pyaar but have no idea what they are doing wrong (ie making keertan something to dance to).

I agree raag is very important, but not of utmost importance. We have had discussions on this before. Basically think about asa di //, guru sahib even says to sing it on an old folk tune (ancient tune you could say).

Think about how many people it took in the old days to sing a shabad in full raag, up to 7 with various instruments, which created an upper class of raagis if you will and nobody else could really do keertan. Along came the vaja..

anyway during the gurus time people sang keertan on simple tunes as they had no training in raag. And even simple tunes are a raag, they just arent classical style. So if a gursikh gets to sachkhand singing bani on simple tunes and never had an inkling of what a raag is, who are we to criticize such a mahapurakh?

I somewhat agree with your observation that akj, dodhra, most raagis, and others do keertan on some bhangra tunes, but i would have no idea what they were, nor do i care. What matt

ers to me is how much pyaar that person has put in the shabad. You can tell when somebody is truly in love with the bani they are reading, and that person is 100 times better than a fake raagi who wears a kirpan to make money but knows all raags inside and out.

So I think that most of those those that make keertan into a dance beat or bhangra etc are wrong, BUT this is very very different from gurmukh pyare playing a tune to a shabad that will touch your soul at a jatha rainsbaee, etc.