Eye Witness Account

[randip singh]

I've never heard this version of the story before, and one can question its authenticity, but as for Guru ji taking five heads, one cannot question that and still call themself a sikh. If your saying that Guru Sahib cut the heads of goats or whatever else, then youre saying that Guru Sahib lied to you and lied to the panth.

Our Gurus didnt perform miracles to instill fear into peoples hearts or to win them over by magic tricks (like so many babeh do today), they did so when there was a need.

As i stated in my earlier posts, if Guru Sahib was one with God and God is capable of anything, then that would make Guru Sahib capable of anything. When a drop of water falls into the ocean, can you see the difference between that drop and the ocean?

Fateh.

Alas....this is the kind of foollishness us Sikhs have come too......

forget the message and what Panj Pyarey were about, they would rather have Guruji performing magic tricks to prove he is real.....

Page 14, Line 6

ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥

सिधु होवा सिधि लाई रिधि आखा आउ ॥

siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o.

If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth

ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥

गुपतु परगटु होइ बैसा लोकु राखै भाउ ॥

gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o.

and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe -

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥

मतु देखि भूला वीसरै तेरा चिति न आवै नाउ ॥३॥

mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3||

seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

well my friend, Guruji and Bani is against miracles.....no Guru's performed them, and that is a fact.

All we know is Guruji emerged with blood on his sword and many cowardly followers ran away............only the brave were left............

If u want miracles, multiple armed Gods, and magic tricks, I suggest a number of religions, including Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism and Islam...................Sikhism is not in this category.

[Guest Narinder Singh]

I've never heard this version of the story before, and one can question its authenticity, but as for Guru ji taking five heads, one cannot question that and still call themself a sikh. If your saying that Guru Sahib cut the heads of goats or whatever else, then youre saying that Guru Sahib lied to you and lied to the panth.

Our Gurus didnt perform miracles to instill fear into peoples hearts or to win them over by magic tricks (like so many babeh do today), they did so when there was a need.

As i stated in my earlier posts, if Guru Sahib was one with God and God is capable of anything, then that would make Guru Sahib capable of anything. When a drop of water falls into the ocean, can you see the difference between that drop and the ocean?

Fateh.

Alas....this is the kind of foollishness us Sikhs have come too......

forget the message and what Panj Pyarey were about, they would rather have Guruji performing magic tricks to prove he is real.....

Page 14, Line 6

ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥

सिधु होवा सिधि लाई रिधि आखा आउ ॥

siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o.

If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth

ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥

गुपतु परगटु होइ बैसा लोकु राखै भाउ ॥

gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o.

and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe -

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥

मतु देखि भूला वीसरै तेरा चिति न आवै नाउ ॥३॥

mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3||

seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

well my friend, Guruji and Bani is against miracles.....no Guru's performed them, and that is a fact.

All we know is Guruji emerged with blood on his sword and many cowardly followers ran away............only the brave were left............

If u want miracles, multiple armed Gods, and magic tricks, I suggest a number of religions, including Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism and Islam...................Sikhism is not in this category.

Who's talking about performing magic tricks to prove ones greatness?

Is this the "modern" and "scientifically" approved version of this story? Sounds like it is. According to your logic, Baba Deep Singh who you have a picture up of didnt fight with his head in hand, he probably put his head under his shirt and put a fake head in his hand with goats blood dripping all over, lol.

And are you saying that no Gurus performed miracles or are you saying they werent capable of performing them? If you believe the latter, then lets just stop this right here because i have nothing more to say to u.

And in the future please refrain from twisting and using gurbani to fit your own manmat agenda.

Fateh.

[ms514]

Duplicate...sorry...

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Ok...Gurbani's take on the matter:

sathigur maeraa maar jeevaalai ||

My True Guru kills and revives.

(Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Raag Bhairao, 1142).

hamaree jaath paath gur sathigur ham vaechiou sir gur kae ||

The Guru, the True Guru, is my social status and honor; I have sold my head to the Guru.

(Guru Raam Daas Ji, Raag Soohee, 731).

Is the Guru a fake that it is not within its power to do so? If Baba Atal can do it, can not Guru Sahib? Are you saying that Guru Sahib was a Pakhandi and would rather slaughter goats than do what he says? Would the goats not be worthy of being called Khalsa then if they gave the ultimate sacrifice? Should goats not be in the Panj Pyare then?

On performing magic tricks, Guru Sahib wrote:

God’s men are, indeed ashamed to act like showmen and perform tricks! (Bachittar Natak).

Indeed, this refers to Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib sacrificing himself instead of doing magic tricks for Aurangazeb. You are mistaking ego play with magic tricks to the creation of the Khalsa. Next, you'll say that the Amrit ceremony is just iron fortified Sharbat that the Panj Pyare are stirring...it has no property outside the realm of being a committment. No, fellow forumites, there is more to life than "science" and the things you can see. Want to explain how Bhai Gurdas Sahib writes that Guru Nanak Dev Ji visited so many worlds in the blink of an eye with Pir Dastagir's son and brought back parshad from there?

Narinder Singh Ji, people are already messing with the Baba Deep Singh story. Rather than having his head cut off, some of our "scientific" friends are now writing that he suffered a blow to his neck and only received an injury, so he kept fighting on. Because, as you know, science is the be all-end all of everything and if it cannot explain it, it just cannot happen. Just remember that science at one point was proporting the idea of abiogenesis, in which flies were born out of horse dung and rats were born out of trash (in the literal sense...they were theorizing that inanimate sources were giving rise to living beings).

P.S. Just for fun:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1263758.stm

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Ok...Gurbani's take on the matter:

sathigur maeraa maar jeevaalai ||

My True Guru kills and revives.

(Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Raag Bhairao, 1142).

hamaree jaath paath gur sathigur ham vaechiou sir gur kae ||

The Guru, the True Guru, is my social status and honor; I have sold my head to the Guru.

(Guru Raam Daas Ji, Raag Soohee, 731).

Is the Guru a fake that it is not within its power to do so? If Baba Atal can do it, can not Guru Sahib? Are you saying that Guru Sahib was a Pakhandi and would rather slaughter goats than do what he says? Would the goats not be worthy of being called Khalsa then if they gave the ultimate sacrifice? Should goats not be in the Panj Pyare then?

On performing magic tricks, Guru Sahib wrote:

God’s men are, indeed ashamed to act like showmen and perform tricks! (Bachittar Natak).

Indeed, this refers to Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib sacrificing himself instead of doing magic tricks for Aurangazeb. You are mistaking ego play with magic tricks to the creation of the Khalsa. Next, you'll say that the Amrit ceremony is just iron fortified Sharbat that the Panj Pyare are stirring...it has no property outside the realm of being a committment. No, fellow forumites, there is more to life than "science" and the things you can see. Want to explain how Bhai Gurdas Sahib writes that Guru Nanak Dev Ji visited so many worlds in the blink of an eye with Pir Dastagir's son and brought back parshad from there?

Narinder Singh Ji, people are already messing with the Baba Deep Singh story. Rather than having his head cut off, some of our "scientific" friends are now writing that he suffered a blow to his neck and only received an injury, so he kept fighting on. Because, as you know, science is the be all-end all of everything and if it cannot explain it, it just cannot happen. Just remember that science at one point was proporting the idea of abiogenesis, in which flies were born out of horse dung and rats were born out of trash (in the literal sense...they were theorizing that inanimate sources were giving rise to living beings).

P.S. Just for fun:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1263758.stm

"Is the Guru a fake that it is not within its power to do so? If Baba Atal can do it, can not Guru Sahib?"

No body doubts the power of Guru that is not the issue here. The issue is the myth of this eye witness account which has been debunked because it never existed. As I have stated before please contact the university to verify for yourselves.

Maybe you could be kind enough to elaborate on the whole story of Baba Atal ji? Rather than state a half truth. Also, maybe you could be kind enough to tell the sangat what was Guru Hargobind Ji’s reaction to the Miracle Baba Atal ji preformed and the ultimate price he paid for it.

[muurakh (forgive me...)]

Vaheguroo ji ka khalsa Vaheguroo ji ki fateh.

IT'S A BIT LONG I APPOLOGISE IN ADVANCE I HOPE IT'S NOT A LOAD OF RUBBISH

for those of you who don't believe that guru ji took 5 heads and bought the panj piyare back to life why not ask a well recognised giani. I'm sure jassa would have the number for mehta (i think sodhi ji is there or are going there on the 18th so might still be in usa), in which case i would wait cos they will give you the answer straight up. Like we were doing santhia with them and a bhujungi singh asked them are sant jarnail singh ji bhindravale shaheed and sodhi ji gave a direct answer saying yes, they became shaheed in front of the flags of akal takht sahib. And i'm sure singhs on here know who sodhi ji is and know that they are on another level.

Also giani pritam singh ji (damdami taksal) now in southall would also give you a good answer which i hope you would be able to trust.

Giani takhur singh ji damdami taksal is another one and i'm sure you know others who are not from the taksal unfortunately i don't know any well enough to comment so i apologise and forgive me if anyone is offended.

and whatever answer is given by the aforementioned i hope you will be able to say satbachan and accept it.

From what very little budhi i have i would have to say;

• if 5 heads were not taken then only the amrit sanchar would've taken place and no such story would have occured and since there is a story there must be some truth.
  

• Also since the 'widely' believed version is that guru ji took 5 heads you would have to edge towards it as it was 'only' 300 odd years ago.
  

• and many of the battles the guru jis fought do not have accounts written about them but a lot is still known so there doesnt necessarily have to be a writen account of vaisakhi 1699.
  

• also 'apparently' guru ji said he would sacrifice his family when asked for his head. and after taking amrit he gave 5 heads - 4 sahibzaade and mata ji. Was that such a coincedence. Guru ji's mehl did not become shaheed at the hands of the mughals and that could've easily happened???
  

Anyway i hope you ask someone you believe to be of an adequate level of spirituality if you can find them and then, whatever the answer maybe, i hope you can accept it and tell everyone else that you asked so and so and the answer you were given was this and that is what you now believe.

But i reckon it comes down to faith, though i do not doubt yours. As it says in jap ji sahib about creation;

ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥

What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥

The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥

That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥

The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥

The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥

O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥

Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥

O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||

I do not aim any of this passage as a dig at you but it is only an example to try and validate my point of view.

Please, if i have offended anyone sangat bakhshan yog hai bakhash laina.

Vaheguroo ji ka khalsa Vaheguroo ji ki fateh.

and as for the eyewitness account some say it exists some say it doesn't i think it's it's irrelevant from what i said before.

But basically if it exists and is real it's would put the matter 'almost' beyond question to those who do not believe in the events of 1699.

If it doesn't exist then it's irrelevant and i'd ask someone...(above qoute).

Vaheguroo ji ka khalsa Vaheguroo ji ki fateh.

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Half truth? Pfft. Guru Sahib told Baba Atal that two swords cannot be sheathed into one sheath...meaning that baba Atal should not have DISLPAYED his spiritual proweress. baba Atal evened out the debt by giving his own life. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not do what he did to display his spiritual proweress or for the personal gain of reviving a friend. He wielded the power of the Almighty to create the Khalsa Panth. I asked you to confirm or deny the story, I did not say I was backing it did I or that it was the complete truth? I am also saying it CAN be done by Guru Sahib.

Ok Dancing Warrior, since you are the expert, provide the Aligarh University contact information.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Half truth? Pfft. Guru Sahib told Baba Atal that two swords cannot be sheathed into one sheath...meaning that baba Atal should not have DISLPAYED his spiritual proweress. baba Atal evened out the debt by giving his own life. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not do what he did to display his spiritual proweress or for the personal gain of reviving a friend. He wielded the power of the Almighty to create the Khalsa Panth. I asked you to confirm or deny the story, I did not say I was backing it did I or that it was the complete truth? I am also saying it CAN be done by Guru Sahib.

Ok Dancing Warrior, since you are the expert, provide the Aligarh University contact information.

Why don’t you try a search engine? type in Aligarh University and then direct your self to the search button, and Walla there you have all the info you need . I can only provide you with common sense the rest you’ll have to do yourself. Don’t want you getting fat and lazy now would we?

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Oooohhh...veiled personal insults, egotism and condescending? Wow...I am impressed. All hail Dancing Warrior. Since you already called and know who to call, the exact person who you spoke to in the library and know him/her to be reliable, and in the interest of the truth (which you are very particular about as one can see above), I would think you would facilitate the process by giving some contact information. Instead, we have haughty arrogance.

Excellent. Tell me who on this list you spoke to:

http://www.amu.ac.in/directorydetails.asp?...RMATION+SCIENCE

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Oooohhh...veiled personal insults, egotism and condescending? Wow...I am impressed. All hail Dancing Warrior. Since you already called and know who to call, the exact person who you spoke to in the library and know him/her to be reliable, and in the interest of the truth (which you are very particular about as one can see above), I would think you would facilitate the process by giving some contact information. Instead, we have haughty arrogance.

Excellent. Tell me who on this list you spoke to:

http://www.amu.ac.in/directorydetails.asp?...RMATION+SCIENCE

egotism and condescending very true I probably am all of these and other vices personified I dont deny it, you see I am a seeker, seekers acknowledge personal insufficiencies and want for betterment. This is what I am. However I am not the creator of a Sim-Sikhi as you are.

Sherlock you have deduced that I am “arrogant” once again very true, because you are perfect you cannot learn anything from me hence rendering my statement/s as irrelevant. You should do the research yourself because you obviously know me to be of dubious character, which I probably am to tell you the truth. I don't suggest you phone them unless your local, they do have an email facility.

Anyway whilst you and your Sim-Sikhs try to build a virtual world out of kitchen paper roles, washing up liquid and sticky tape I have other pursuits to get on with like pagan devil worship with my Nihang, Rss, Bjp, Namdari, Shivsena, Walmart, Fbi, Congress, KKK mates. Everyone's invited bring your own bottle, goats blood go down very well.

Any ways happy hunting what ever your name is, what is that any way? Ms514 ? Your righteous I.Q?

Yours Truly

Self acknowledged Egoistic <admin-profanity filter activated>

Dancing Warrior

By the way I have tried to publicly declare some of my vices, so it saves you from having to that “nindia, talking negatively nonsense” you probably believe in. Saves you from having to be reborn a tele-tubbi or some thing like that.

Truly the beginning of the Muppets revolution, good luck :TH: