Eye Witness Account

[jassa]

why not wait till time machine is invented .... then we can go and see .... till then stop fighting ....

just a thought how can believe a so called writing of a turk for whome guru sahib wrote never believe them what they say ...

when many sants from damdami taksal budhadal and other sikhs spoke and wrote granths on it did katha of 1699 ... without quoting this aligarh library stuff ....

[Guest A Singh.]

What "Dancing Warrior" Veer Ji has said about the questionable historical authenticity of this particular account is correct - there are no contemporary accounts of exactly what happened in the original Vaisakhi 1699 - they were all written many decades afterwards at the very least.

And I certainly do not agree it is acceptable to propogate what is essentially a fabricated account just because it may "inspire some people". There is enough academic dishonesty in Sikhism as it is - other examples of fabricated material include the "Nishani Sikhi" Shabad that has previously claimed to be the writing of Bhai Nand Lal (and is now passed off as the work of Guru Gobind Singh himself by certain organisations), and various additional lines of Rehatnamas, etc in an attempt for individuals to promote their own version of Sikhi or Rehat.

[Heera Singh]

there's a diff between death n liberation...

when a person jus 'dies', dat person is put back tru da cycle of life n death (chaurasee lakh joon)...

when a person is LIBERATED.... dat person is not put back tru da cycle, rather, his JOT or soul, becomes ONE wit da Big Man (... aka Vaheguru )

Dancin Dude... stop puttin down wha yuh dun believe.. if u dun beleive that's wha happened on da day Khalsa Was born, so be it... nobody knows wha actually happened on dat day, 'cause none'a us were there... so stop actin like YUH kno everytin, n dat tha story told is completely false.. if u don't believe it... da's fine... nobody really cares, n nobody asked for ur opinion.. so jus leave it... let people believe wha dem waant... dat shud'n affect ur spirituality one way or anudda...

y'all people bicker fa no reason...

jus go along ya own biness :lol:

Chardi Kalaa!!

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

there's a diff between death n liberation...

when a person jus 'dies', dat person is put back tru da cycle of life n death (chaurasee lakh joon)...

when a person is LIBERATED.... dat person is not put back tru da cycle, rather, his JOT or soul, becomes ONE wit da Big Man (... aka Vaheguru )

Dancin Dude... stop puttin down wha yuh dun believe.. if u dun beleive that's wha happened on da day Khalsa Was born, so be it... nobody knows wha actually happened on dat day, 'cause none'a us were there... so stop actin like YUH kno everytin, n dat tha story told is completely false.. if u don't believe it... da's fine... nobody really cares, n nobody asked for ur opinion.. so jus leave it... let people believe wha dem waant... dat shud'n affect ur spirituality one way or anudda...

y'all people bicker fa no reason...

jus go along ya own biness :lol:

Chardi Kalaa!!

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!!

Kindly learn to spell or familiarise yourself with the F7 key if you are going to make any attempt at a decent statement. Keep the RnB linguistics for the playground.

However I have attempted to decode what you stated, needless to say it was a waste of time.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

If death is liberation why would the Guru bring anyone back from it?

The Panj Pyare did not live th way of the Khalsa, so it was required to bring htem bck to life. The mind died, and was resurected. To you and I, it was as if the person died. - What do you think happened on the day of 1699 at Anadpur Sahib DW?

Cartman, the origin issue was the authenticity of the statement made at the beginning of the topic. I do not believe it to be true for all the reasons I have stated, I am not trying to slap my own back in victory or any such nonsense I am merely trying to emphasize the need for truth in what ever manner it presents itself often it may not be to our preference or our flavour. In such an instances do we simply brush it under the carpet and state it never happened ? You could argue this is precisely what I am doing, not so I believe the reason why the Panth is in such a mess is because of this tunnel vision mentality we have become blind because we refuse to see.

This is the faith of my fathers who were champions of truth be in in whatever form it was realised and revealed. With one step of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and the one word Satnam, the true name the world awoke and yet we sleep today. The journey for truth is always a painful one as was the journey of our forefathers.

The path with no obstacles is not always the right one.

Question everything because its your birthright.

Sat Sri Akaal

end.

[kuljeet]

WE ARE NOT PROMISED HEAVEN AND VIRGINS....SO FOR US DOES IT MATTER WHERE WE ARE?

WHERE WE ARE, as you put it kuljeet is in a realm of fantasy as you stated “you imagine” this is where the problem arises. The question is not the limitations of Guru for that there is no dispute. The question is do the means justify the end? What I am implying is, is it moral to state fiction or a lie in order to bring people to a “righteous” end?

YOU ASKED: If death is liberation why would the Guru bring anyone back from it?

I COMMENTED ON THAT.

NOW YOU ARE SAYING: What I am implying is, is it moral to state fiction or a lie in order to bring people to a “righteous” end?

I IMAGINE IT IS WRONG. I ONLY IMAGINE BECAUSE MAHARAJ STATES TREAT LIFE LIKE A DREAM/A PLAY....IT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT THAT YOU TRY TO ACHIEVE LIBERATION. IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT THE STORY IS FALSE...IT IS OTHERS OPINION THAT IT IS NOT....YOU HAVE MADE YOUR LITTLE POINT SO JUST PUT A SOCK IN IT.

YOU HAVE MADE YOUR LITTLE POINT SO JUST PUT A SOCK IN IT.

Would that be an imaginary sock one or a real one?

You carry on dreaming and coexisting with the rest of your buddies in the land of the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause somewhere between Never land and Oz. Factually speaking based on some of the claims that are made on this forum people are reducing the Fact of Sikhi to a piece of fiction.

The truth will always remain be it cold and uncompromising, even well after the fantasists and dreamers have long gone. Good luck building a nation on the foundation of lies; will this be the great Khalsa state?

SAT SRI AKAL

DID I SAY I AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE VERSIONS? WHY YOU ARE SOO MUCH ON THE DEFENSIVE I DONT UNDERSTAND...WHAT MAKES ME A FANATIC?

MAHARAJ HAS TOLD US THAT LIFE IS A DREAM, TREAT LIFE LIKE A PLAY, WE COME AND GO.....HENCE I GUESS I HAVE DEVELOPED AN IMAGINATION....I APLOGISE IF BY ME SAYING 'I IMAGINE' HAS OFFENDED YOU DANCING WARRIOR....WHO ARE YOU WISHING GOOD LUCK TO? THE REST OF US LOST SOULS? THE REST OF THE PANTH? NEXT TIME I WILL REMEMBER THAT YOU ALONE DANCING WARRIOR HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...THE REST OF US MERE MORTALS ARE JUST LOOKING UP AT YOUR BIG HEAD IN OWE.....I HOPE I HAVEN'T MADE ANY SPELLING ERRORS....IF I HAVE I APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE DANCING WARRIOR VEER JI/PEN JI.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

WE ARE NOT PROMISED HEAVEN AND VIRGINS....SO FOR US DOES IT MATTER WHERE WE ARE?

WHERE WE ARE, as you put it kuljeet is in a realm of fantasy as you stated “you imagine” this is where the problem arises. The question is not the limitations of Guru for that there is no dispute. The question is do the means justify the end? What I am implying is, is it moral to state fiction or a lie in order to bring people to a “righteous” end?

YOU ASKED: If death is liberation why would the Guru bring anyone back from it?

I COMMENTED ON THAT.

NOW YOU ARE SAYING: What I am implying is, is it moral to state fiction or a lie in order to bring people to a “righteous” end?

I IMAGINE IT IS WRONG. I ONLY IMAGINE BECAUSE MAHARAJ STATES TREAT LIFE LIKE A DREAM/A PLAY....IT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT THAT YOU TRY TO ACHIEVE LIBERATION. IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT THE STORY IS FALSE...IT IS OTHERS OPINION THAT IT IS NOT....YOU HAVE MADE YOUR LITTLE POINT SO JUST PUT A SOCK IN IT.

YOU HAVE MADE YOUR LITTLE POINT SO JUST PUT A SOCK IN IT.

Would that be an imaginary sock one or a real one?

You carry on dreaming and coexisting with the rest of your buddies in the land of the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause somewhere between Never land and Oz. Factually speaking based on some of the claims that are made on this forum people are reducing the Fact of Sikhi to a piece of fiction.

The truth will always remain be it cold and uncompromising, even well after the fantasists and dreamers have long gone. Good luck building a nation on the foundation of lies; will this be the great Khalsa state?

SAT SRI AKAL

DID I SAY I AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE VERSIONS? WHY YOU ARE SOO MUCH ON THE DEFENSIVE I DONT UNDERSTAND...WHAT MAKES ME A FANATIC?

MAHARAJ HAS TOLD US THAT LIFE IS A DREAM, TREAT LIFE LIKE A PLAY, WE COME AND GO.....HENCE I GUESS I HAVE DEVELOPED AN IMAGINATION....I APLOGISE IF BY ME SAYING 'I IMAGINE' HAS OFFENDED YOU DANCING WARRIOR....WHO ARE YOU WISHING GOOD LUCK TO? THE REST OF US LOST SOULS? THE REST OF THE PANTH? NEXT TIME I WILL REMEMBER THAT YOU ALONE DANCING WARRIOR HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...THE REST OF US MERE MORTALS ARE JUST LOOKING UP AT YOUR BIG HEAD IN OWE.....I HOPE I HAVEN'T MADE ANY SPELLING ERRORS....IF I HAVE I APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE DANCING WARRIOR VEER JI/PEN JI.

"THAT YOU ALONE DANCING WARRIOR HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...THE REST OF US MERE MORTALS ARE JUST LOOKING UP AT YOUR BIG HEAD IN OWE."

Shucks your such a tease ….If you wish I can provide you with a signed autograph free of charge…just for you. :TH:

By the way your spelling isn’t the problem if you learn to read you will realise I said “fantasist” not “fanatic” :nihungsmile:

[MiriPiri]

I think our Hindhu ancestors' blood runs too rich in us that we have to depend on stories of miracles and super-human strength to infuse within us the belief that we are somehow special in the eyes of God. We are not special because we believe in these miracles and therefore take amrit. We are special because we take amrit and release the 4 thieves from our lives. It's not complex.

Personally, I don't care if these miracles actually occurred, just that the stories prove a point.

It is clear to me that the stories, when retold, and because of the manner in, and purpose for which, they are told, are to suit the purposes of the tellers.

What I'm saying is look beyond the miralces and understand what we need to change within ourselves and let's aspire to the ideals.

Miracles won't change the world, only the actions of millions will.

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

This entire arguement is happening because Dancing Warrior says the story is false. Ok Dancing Warrior...prove it is false.

[MiriPiri]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

This entire arguement is happening because Dancing Warrior says the story is false. Ok Dancing Warrior...prove it is false.

No need for the argument. God (the Gurus) did not write the story so need to argue if it is true or not. Whatever actually happened, the point is, Guru Ji, on that day, taught us that faith and commitment will bring us the ultimate reward. You cannot argue with that, as that is true faith, not the belief in miracles.