That Turd Umar Is Back Trying To Bash Sikhism

[UKGupt Kaur]

Re: Nijjar

Is this the Christian in Sikh roop who trys to convert Sikhs to Christianity? Is this what your version of Christianity teaches you to do?

Old man, you are insulting the good Christians by your acts. Besharam!.

[ISDhillon]

Re: Nijjar

Is this the Christian in Sikh roop who trys to convert Sikhs to Christianity? Is this what your version of Christianity teaches you to do?

Old man, you are insulting the good Christians by your acts. Besharam!.

Dont worry about nijjer he's a retard, I've already had the discussion with muslims and answered all there questions:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-re...14-sikhism.html

Read it and refer any questions i'll answer.

indy :D

[Bored]

so if it is true that muslims don't belive god onli lives in mecca

then searchsikhism did f-up

i belived this statment too, and i learned it from a sikh site

hopfully the dude is lying about that statment or else searchsikhism really messed up!

and they aint any better then this extremist!!!!

[Bijla Singh]

so if it is true that muslims don't belive god onli lives in mecca

Muslims in India face west because that's where Mecca is. According to them, Mecca is house of Allah and that is where Allah resides. This is why Guru Sahib and Bhagat Ji rejected the notion that God doesn't live in the west but everywhere. If Muslims believe Allah is everywhere then why face a certain direction? I have met many Muslims who first determine in which direction Mecca is and then face that direction. During debates with Muslims it became clear that Allah is not everywhere. According to them, Allah is only in heaven and not in hell because Satan took over. Allah resides only at "pure" places. Impure things include women, blood, dirt, excreta etc. Allah in Islam always supports Muslims and hates "non-believers". Quran says one thing at one place and then contradict itself at another place. So really, there is no way to tell what exactly Quran says since it is full of contradictions.

[N30S1NGH]

Here is one example of misinterpretation from Faridkoti teeka.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰਤੀ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲੈ ਜੇ ਤਨੁ ਚੀਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥

Those bodies which are imbued with the Lord - those bodies contain no blood. ||51||

Above translation makes no sense at all.

Fareed, not even a drop of blood would issue forth, if someone cut my body.

ਜੋ ਤਨ ਰਤੇ ਰਬ ਸਿਉ ਤਿਨ ਤਨਿ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥51॥

How it doesnt make sense? have you heard of metaphors before?

I have read the shabad again from orginal source, it makes perfect sense, Here is its full context, dont miss the sri guru amar das ji reference:

just because your buddhi is limited (stuck in - black/white sikhi/gurbani limited to vikhayran) doesnt mean that above translation doesnt make sense. I ll write a topic on pimp like mindset you people have adapted when proving your agenda by using gurbani and its interpretation..just give me few days.

And why must pal adapt to your sharia mindset? Pal is right whatever he beleifs fully backed up by sri guru granth sahib ji interpreted by faridkot teeka and sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale (anmol panth ratan), you provided references for your beleif, he has provided equally valid references for his beleif. Neither his references or your references are 100% authority when it comes to perfect interpretations of gurbani. There are many teekakars in the panth, no one claims they are authority its people like you who like to push their interpretations as gospel truth for your own gratifications. Sikh scholars interpret gurbani according to their anubhav parkash(gifted by guru sahiban), they fully acknolwdge and do not claim full 100% authority on translating dhur ki bani, because they know sri guru granth sahib ji is not just mere normal granth, its dhur ki bani.

also pal doesnt beleive in pick and choose sikhi you guys beleive in- just days before- prof sahib singh was an authority to interpret gurbani for so called tat khalsa/singh sabhas now its bhai veer singh and bhai kahn singh nabha for people like you use them to prove the agenda...what happen to prof sahib singh interpertation? what happened? it doesnt fit your shria life style/mindset.

you people mindset remind of fascist mullahs in sikh garb who uses gurbani for own agenda against other dharms. Thanks to vahiguroo, you guys are not authority (jathedars) of the panth, if it was up to you guys, you would have also started sikh jihad against hindus/muslims just like how fascist taliban/sunni mullahs have started jihads against non-beleivers.

[Bijla Singh]

How it doesnt make sense? have you heard of metaphors before?

Perhaps you could explain the so-called metaphor which is not listed in Faridkoti or Amri Singh's teeka. It clearly states that those who do bhagtee don't have blood in their bodies which is false. Bhagat Farid Ji is not asking any questions but stating facts. Unfortunately, scholars missed the main point. Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji provided very beautiful meanings of this shabad which I learned from one of his students. I do not follow anyone 100%. So don't expect me to believe in everything Prof Sahib Singh, Sant Ji, Bhai Veer Singh Ji or anyone else have said. Show me where I have stated that I only accept Prof. Sahib Singh's meanings to be the true ones? I don't even know how you came to believe in false assumptions. Gurbani viyakaran does exist but spiritual meanings are also valid as long as those meanings don't promote Gurbani contradicting itself. I find Bhai Veer Singh Ji's meanings to be much better and highly spiritual than Prof. Sahib Singh's. The shabad above shows that Guru Sahib is answering Bhagat Ji but according to Prof Sahib and Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, Guru Sahib is explaining this concept in more details. Bhagat Ji was jeevan mukat and had braham gyan. He had passed away before Guru Amar Das Ji. If we are to believe that Guru Sahib answered his question then we must also assume that Bhagat Ji died without getting his answer which is not correct. Both are speaking of the same concept and the meanings provided in Faridkoti teeka are wrong.

I don't have the time to explain the correct meanings right now. In brief, the word "Ratt" doesn't mean blood. It means Prem or love. Apply these meanings and you will see how beautiful and spiritual it gets. Bhagat Ji in Toronto taught me Sant Ji's meanings of this shabad and you can contact him to learn them. According to him lobh or any other thief is not rooted in our blood but in our mind which makes more sense. I do vichaar and accept what is gurmat. Following people and everything they say is not gurmat. I agree with many things Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhai Veer Singh and Sant Gurbachan Singh have said but there are/could be other things I don't agree with. Every gursikh has knowledge to pass on. Their meanings could be contradicting and one can only do vichaar to understand the correct meanings. Thus, picking and choosing is the way. Blindly following is not. pal didn't provide any reasoning. His belief is based on what Sant Ji said which is fine for him but this is not deductive reasoning.

[Mehtab Singh]

First of all, sorry for interrupting the party.

In brief, the word "Ratt" doesn't mean blood. It means Prem or love.

As per my atom-sized knowledge, "ratt" comes from "rakt", which is Hindi for blood.

Lets look into it...

jy rqu lgY kpVY jwmw hoie plIqu ]

jae rath lagai kaparrai jaamaa hoe paleeth ||

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Maajh

140

jo rqu pIvih mwxsw iqn ikau inrmlu cIqu ]

jo rath peevehi maanasaa thin kio niramal cheeth ||

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Maajh

140

jYsy kwqI qIs bqIs hY ivic rwKY rsnw mws rqu kyrI ]

jaisae kaathee thees bathees hai vich raakhai rasanaa maas rath kaeree ||

Just as the tongue, made of flesh and blood, is protected within the scissors of the thirty-two teeth

Guru Raam Daas Ji

Raag Gauree

168

ijau qnu kolU pIVIAY rqu n BorI fyih ]

jio than koloo peerreeai rath n bhoree ddaehi ||

It is as if my body has been crushed in the oil-press, without yielding even a drop of blood;

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Sorath

644

rqu pIxy rwjy isrY aupir rKIAih eyvY jwpY Bwau ]

rath peenae raajae sirai oupar rakheeahi eaevai jaapai bhaao ||

and if the blood-sucking kings were to hold power over me

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Maajh

142

ijau qnu kolU pIVIAY rqu n BorI fyih ]

jio than koloo peerreeai rath n bhoree ddaehi ||

It is as if my body has been crushed in the oil-press, without yielding even a drop of blood;

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Sorath

644

iehu qnu sBo rqu hY rqu ibnu qMnu n hoie ]

eihu than sabho rath hai rath bin tha(n)n n hoe ||

This body is all blood; without blood, the body cannot exist.

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Raamkalee

949

Everywhere "ratt" stands for blood. Could you please explain how can it be love? I am not testing you, just curious and trying to learn.

Thanks

[Bijla Singh]

It depends on context. Panktees you provided are all in same context. Words according to context mean different things. This is where viyakaran doesn't explain everything and spiritual meanings become more valid. Word Amrit can mean Naam, milk, food, five padarath etc. Word "Veda" means four vedas of hindus or sacha gyan depending on context. Word Raag means raga or prem (love). Similarly, word Ratt means blood, lover, love, happiness etc. Refer to Mahan Kosh page 3573 and read last tine of first paragraph of Nitnem Swayeeas. I will explain in details if I have time. Right now I don't. Guru Rakha

[N30S1NGH]

Perhaps you could explain the so-called metaphor which is not listed in Faridkoti or Amri Singh's teeka. It clearly states that those who do bhagtee don't have blood in their bodies which is false. Bhagat Farid Ji is not asking any questions but stating facts.

Already shown you the metaphor re-read the teeka again, it talks about rat/ratie being both blood and prem/raatiya- drenched in love(see- sri guru amar das ji bani reference right in the orginal teeka itself which i posted for you)

So here by faridkot teeka and mehtab singh post, we discover same word might have two different meaning- here are one of reasons for you why you shouldnt use black/white- true or false analogy when you deal with dhur ki bani.

Unfortunately, scholars missed the main point. Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji provided very beautiful meanings of this shabad which I learned from one of his students.

No one is denying, ratie also means prem but on same token it means blood as well. Both interpertations are correct.

I do not follow anyone 100%. So don't expect me to believe in everything Prof Sahib Singh, Sant Ji, Bhai Veer Singh Ji or anyone else have said. Show me where I have stated that I only accept Prof. Sahib Singh's meanings to be the true ones? I don't even know how you came to believe in false assumptions. Gurbani viyakaran does exist but spiritual meanings are also valid as long as those meanings don't promote Gurbani contradicting itself. I find Bhai Veer Singh Ji's meanings to be much better and highly spiritual than Prof. Sahib Singh's. The shabad above shows that Guru Sahib is answering Bhagat Ji but according to Prof Sahib and Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji,

Thats exactly my point, no teekakars can claim 100% authority on gurbani. Hence, there is more than one interpertation of gurbani, no one is wrong, no one is right all the great teekakars translated gurbani according to one/two of three things - vikhaayaran, uthanka and antriv arths.

Guru Sahib is explaining this concept in more details. Bhagat Ji was jeevan mukat and had braham gyan. He had passed away before Guru Amar Das Ji. If we are to believe that Guru Sahib answered his question then we must also assume that Bhagat Ji died without getting his answer which is not correct. Both are speaking of the same concept and the meanings provided in Faridkoti teeka are wrong.

Reference from sri guru amar das ji is given in the teeka not as a answer to baba farid quote but to further reinforce, ratt means both blood and prem, see first line of gurbani by sri guru amar das ji which is

Eh Tan Sabhai Rat Haie Rat Bin Tan Na Hoi ||

Here rat refers to blood

Jo Seh Rate apne tith tin lohb rat n hoi ||

Here rat refers to prem.

Also read the orginal quote by baba farid in teeka again

you will see first line- rat refers to blood and second refers to prem in brackets and as well blood.

its saying in the 2nd line of orginal quote one who have drenched in love(ratie) with prameshvar, those body doesnt have any rakhat(blood). This shouldnt be taken literally but as a metaphor but if you wish to take it quite literally then here is one possible-

This implies after drenched in love(Ratie) with paremshvar- dhyan gets merged in nirvakalap smadhi- blood circulation stops, dhyaan goes in sun samadh(turiya avastha). There is no coming down. There is no blood circulation, however body is still alive via naam liv/amrit ras not by vital force/sceince.

According to him lobh or any other thief is not rooted in our blood but in our mind which makes more sense. I do vichaar and accept what is gurmat.

Where in faridkot teeka implies that lobh is deep roted in blood not mind? its talks about lobh resided antishkaran(mind, chit,buddh, ahankar), i cannot beleive how can you miss the explanation, i m quoting exactly as it appears in the teeka- antishkaran vicho lobh roopi rakat jata rehta hai, again rakat is used in metaphor- lobh roopi rakat

Following people and everything they say is not gurmat. I agree with many things Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhai Veer Singh and Sant Gurbachan Singh have said but there are/could be other things I don't agree with. Every gursikh has knowledge to pass on. Their meanings could be contradicting and one can only do vichaar to understand the correct meanings. Thus, picking and choosing is the way. Blindly following is not. pal didn't provide any reasoning. His belief is based on what Sant Ji said which is fine for him but this is not deductive reasoning.

Thanks for proving my point- about picking and choosing is the way. Thats all i want to hear.

If you beleive picking and choosing interpertations from gurbani is the way, then naturally you beleive there is more than one interpertation of gurbani or else where would u pick and choose from?

If you beleive there is more than one interpertation of gurbani then whats there to debate with pal? Pal has provided you both fardikot teeka as well sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale interpretation of ved/ketab and 4 vedas being true, he didnt based his reasoning just just because he is a mahapursh, he based on reasoning on khoj he has done.

As it seems from your previous post it doesnt seem like you beleive there is one teekakar who have interpertated gurbani 100% rest are all pendu interpertations or false interpertations, if its true, then i dont know why you on other hand have audaciy to claim other interpertations are wrong. why is that so?

one question for you:

do you expect other people/sangat to follow whatever you pick and choose from gurbani and its interpertations done by few scholars claim it as "Gurmat". ???

or

do you expect other people to do their own khoj and reach variety of conculsations from vareity teekas out there of sri guru granth sahib ji with different levels of gurbani interpertations-

1.vakhiyaran(grammar), 2. uthanka(historical reference), 3. antriv arths(spiritual meaning) ??

There are many teekas of sri guru granth sahib ji..some have vaikhiyaran, some are focused highly on uthanka and antriv arths for eg- faridkot teeka by nirmale , bhai veer singh ji, prof sahib singh, baba amir singh satogali wale, sevapanthis teekas.

Dont mind it, i ll say it blunty most of the time you pick and choose gurbani to push your personal agenda against other dharams ?? ask yourself when did you do vichar of gurbani on the forums to benefit sangat or even for yourself, by track down your posts, its always been you pick and chose gurbani interpertations to bring down other dharams. why this fascism? gurbani is double edge sword, if its used with good intention brings amrit varkha but if its used for your own gratification/personal agenda, it acts like vicious force against people who pick and choose gurbani to push their agenda.

Anyway, all teekars have claimed that they have interpertated according to whatever bibek buddhi guru has graced upon them, none of teekars claims that their teekas is ulitmate authority on translateration and interpertation of gurbani. Thats why there is room of differences of interpertations of gurbani at the same time, holding respect towards other teekakars. Its usually die hard followers who like to claim this steek interpertations are false and this one is right, i never seen or heard from history any teekakars bickering among themselves how their interpertations are more valid than the others.

[Bijla Singh]

I won't argue much here but in the shabad Ratt means Love. It doesn't mean blood in either Farid Ji's sloak or Guru Sahib's shabad. Both mean the same in this context and Guru Sahib only emphasized it further. You can believe in whatever you want. I will believe what I learned from gursikhs which is that "Lobh Ratt" means love for lobh. Here are brief meanings done by Sant Ji which I believe make more sense.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰਤੀ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲੈ ਜੇ ਤਨੁ ਚੀਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥

ਫਰੀਦਾ, ਭਾਂਵੇਂ ਤਨ ਨੂੰ ਚੀਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾਵੇ ਫਿਰ ਵੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਰਤਾ ਜਿੰਨਾ ਵੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ (ਰਤੁ) ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਕਲ ਸਕਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਸੱਚੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਨਾਲ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਨਹੀਂ ।

ਜੋ ਤਨ ਰਤੇ ਰਬ ਸਿਉ ਤਿਨ ਤਨਿ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥51॥

ਜਿਹੜੇ ਤਨ ਆਪਣੇ ਸੱਚੇ ਰੱਬ ਨਾਲ ਰੱਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੇ ਤਨ ਦੀ (ਸਰੀਰ ਨਾਲ) ਪ੍ਰੀਤੀ ਨਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ।

Our history proves it to be true. Bhai Mati Das Ji, Bhai Mani Singh and Bhai Taru Singh Ji were full of love of Waheguru and even after being cut alive their love could not be decreased. After being cut, blood comes out but love for Waheguru doesn't. Their avastha was unchangeable. I wish I had the recording but I don't.

do you expect other people to do their own khoj and reach variety of conculsations from vareity teekas out there of sri guru granth sahib ji with different levels of gurbani interpertations-

1.vakhiyaran(grammar), 2. uthanka(historical reference), 3. antriv arths(spiritual meaning) ??

This is what I believe and this is what I do. However, if meanings contradict or show that Gurbani contradicts itself then I will reject those meanings. Sant Ji used to provide multiple meanings of shabads but they never contradicted. Each one was spiritually higher than another.

Dont mind it, i ll say it blunty most of the time you pick and choose gurbani to push your personal agenda against other dharams ?? ask yourself when did you do vichar of gurbani on the forums to benefit sangat or even for yourself, by track down your posts, its always been you pick and chose gurbani interpertations to bring down other dharams. why this fascism? gurbani is double edge sword, if its used with good intention brings amrit varkha but if its used for your own gratification/personal agenda, it acts like vicious force against people who pick and choose gurbani to push their agenda.

My personal agenda? Which post of mine promotes me or gratifies me? I mostly post gurmat oriented posts. I pick and choose anything that is gurmat oriented. I have stated before that I don't follow anything blindly or simply because someone has said it. Every history book or work of scholar has errors (made unintentionally) so we must ask educated gursikhs, do vichaar and thrive to learn. I believe Gurmat is highest and no other religion comes close to it. You may disagree because you belong to a different school of thought and I can't do anything about it if it bothers you so much. I don't believe Mohammad who had lust for a 6 year old girl or krishna who used to watch naked women bathing are equal to Guru sahib. Those who think Gurmat is equal to hinduism or Islam insult Sikhi by presenting their RSS type hinduized version of Sikhi. Sikhi is unique, dharam of this age and Guru Sahib is the greatest of all.

I don't know why you had to write so much to attack me just because of a disagreement on a single word which is not invented by me but by Sant Gurbachan Singh. I believe he is correct and makes more sense than faridkoti teeka. Simple as that. I don't think arguing too much over these meanings is fruitful.