Dasam Granth Parkash?

[Khalsa4ever]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I think parkash of both is OK, but based on the condition that you DO NOT matha-take to it.

Guru Gobind SIngh Jee gave us the SGGS as our final guru (and even told others that you are not to worship him or his writings... ie: The dasam granth.

I know that people have a hard time differentiating between Guru and not, and they bow before everything in site.

For example, this giani came from India here and brought several articles once owned by Guru Gobind Singh Jee (a pagh and a full suit). They set it up in the gurdwara in a little table with ramalas... and EVERYBODY I SAW WHO CAME INSIDE THE GURDWARA HALL WENT STRAIGHT TO IT AND BOWED, IGNORING GURU GRANTH SAHIB!!!!

It's stuff like that which causes problems.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Khalsa4ever, you example of the Guru jee's clothiing is a good one concerning some of issues facing concerning faith in Guru Sahib, but we can hardly use that to compare it with the Dasam Granth.

You mentioned that Guru Sahib said, "the SGGS as our final guru (and even told others that you are not to worship him or his writings... ie: The dasam granth".

This is interesting, I've heard of Guru Sahib (and even seen the associated writings) indicating not to worship him as Nirankar, however never anything concerning his writings. Veer, could you please verify this statement.

Something on this matter that has always intrigued me is that when the Adi Granth was first compiled by Guru Arjan Dev Jee, we learn of how the Maryada was established, Guru Sahib placed the Granth on a higher platform (on a throne) and always from that day onwards sat lower to the Granth. Baba Buddha Jee was the first Granthi attend to the Adi Granth.

It wasn't declared as Guru Granth at the time, but was certainly treated in the same manner. Amandeep Singh Munde and Dalip Singh, build upon a similar view indicating that Guru Gobind Singh divested Gurgaddi to the Khalsa Panth (Guru Panth) and to the Guru Granth, hence the practice keeping both Granths together follows...any thoughts?

Gur Fateh!

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Writing from the sunny pind of Fresno California. The Punjab away from Punjab.

Anyways, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib left no doubt as to the fact that the Guru Granth Sahib was to be the eternal Guru of the Sikhs. He,on his deathbed, summoned the Sikhs to bring the (at that time) the Adi Granth Sahib to him. He himself consecrated the Adi Granth Sahib in the EXACT manner as every Guru had passed on the Gurgaddi, namely by presenting the Adi Granth Sahib 5 paise, a coconut and finalized the act by bowing to the Adi Granth Sahib, which from then on, became the Guru Granth Sahib. It is even stated that the Dohira recited at the end of Ardaas are the words (or some variation) of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib which state to follow the Guru Granth Sahib as the Guru. This was NOT done to the Dasam Granth (as no such Granth was in existence at the time) or the Sarbloh Granth (whose very origin and status is still a mystery to many).

In NO way should the knowledge of the Dasam Granth be ignored. It is the work of the Dasmi Patshahi and should be treated with respect, but the designation of Guru belongs only to the Guru Granth Sahib and not any other Granth Sahib. So doing parkash of Guru Granth Sahib alongside of the Dasam Granth at the same level would be to ignore the very last commandment of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.

Any mistakes, please correct.

[V]

I think I agree with Veer Aove.

I once asked a scholar about whether Dasam GRanth is our GUru etc,

he told us to prioritate GUru GRnth SAhib jee, as its our GURU

but to also follow hukams of Dasam Patsha

bhull chukk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[r.singh]

It wasn't declared as Guru Granth at the time, but was certainly treated in the same manner. Amandeep Singh Munde and Dalip Singh, build upon a similar view indicating that Guru Gobind Singh divested Gurgaddi to the Khalsa Panth (Guru Panth) and to the Guru Granth, hence the practice keeping both Granths together follows...any thoughts?

You lost me on the last part. Are they saying that since gurgaddi was given to the khalsa panth, the panth can then declare Sri Dasm Granth as Guru?

I personally agree with Japnaam Singh on this. Guru Saahib declared the Adi Granth Saahib as Guru, not any other granth. The vast majority of the panth also agrees that the Dasm Granth was compiled later on. Bhai Mani Singh was a great gursikh, but he didn't have the power to give guru ship and he never claimed this power. Of course, Dasm Banee is Gurbanee, but the Dasm Granth is not compiled by our Gurus, it wasn't given gurgaddi by our gurus and therefore, shouldn't be treated as the Guru Granth Saahib. In my eyes, it is similar to having a pothee full of gurbanee. It's still gurbanee and you treat it as such, but you don't place the pothi on par with Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee simply because it hasn't been given the gurgaddi.

As far as certain Gurdvaras (Hazoor Saahib, Patna Saahib) doing prakash of Sri Dasm Granth, I personally don't think this has too much bearing. Sure, it indicates that this

was a common practice at one point, but that doesn't mean that it was ever correct. A lot of things were prevalent at one point or another, especially prior to the Singh Sabhaa Movement, but it doesn't mean that these things were in accordance with Gurmat. Certain schools of thought now try to discredit the Singh Sabha Movement and all the reforms that took place. In my eyes, this movement saved Sikhism from being swallowed by hinduism.

Another thing to remember: the prevalent saroop of Dasm Granth today was in fact compiled in the 1890's. This granth isn't even the one compiled by Bhai Mani Singh Jee.

[DhadiMania]

khalsa4eva has mentined bout the gyani hu set up guru gobind singhs suit, n ppl bowed 2 that. question 4 the sangat, y do ppl bow down 2 the gurus shaastras?

[Gurindar]

Gur fateh Sadh Sangat Jio,

Who are we to discuss and think what has had happened at the Guru's times. Is all HIS game and He only knows this.

For us, now, naam jap and naam jap. Period.

When the time comes, the spirited gursikhs will tell and guide us about Dasam Granth. Get into their game first, then start any discussion only. Gursikhi lifestyle is very complex, thus, for now, bani pero and naam japo, get the khed first.

[Khalsa4ever]

khalsa4eva has mentined bout the gyani hu set up guru gobind singhs suit, n ppl bowed 2 that. question 4 the sangat, y do ppl bow down 2 the gurus shaastras?

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

It's because people don't think before they bow (seriously). They look at it think "it is the guru" and thus "i must bow to it".

They don't realize that this is ritualistic, and simply wrong. I know in several cases after that incident, I spoke with some people and asked them to explain why they bowed down to these items, and they did realize that this was wrong.

We've gotta remember that Guru never bowed to the king of India, because the physical form although of a king was not the same as the jot inside. This is why we bow to the SGGS, not because it is a book, but because it has the jot of Guru Nanak within it. This is why we cannot bow down before someone's clothes... guru's jot is not inside them.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Khalsa4ever]

Something on this matter that has always intrigued me is that when the Adi Granth was first compiled by Guru Arjan Dev Jee, we learn of how the Maryada was established, Guru Sahib placed the Granth on a higher platform (on a throne) and always from that day onwards sat lower to the Granth. Baba Buddha Jee was the first Granthi attend to the Adi Granth.

It wasn't declared as Guru Granth at the time, but was certainly treated in the same manner. Amandeep Singh Munde and Dalip Singh, build upon a similar view indicating that Guru Gobind Singh divested Gurgaddi to the Khalsa Panth (Guru Panth) and to the Guru Granth, hence the practice keeping both Granths together follows...any thoughts?

Gur Fateh!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

That's a pretty wicked observation... I never thought of that. As to the first point you mentioned, i'll look it up and get back to you.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Deep Singh]

Okey for a seconde if we continue on the thought that was presented by Niranjana jee about Guru Granth Sahib been given Gurgaddi in 1604 at Guru Arjan Dev Sahib's time. Well then the Guru would be Sri Guru Granth Sahib and not Guru Hargobind jee after Guru Arjan Dev jee. therefore there is a need of some explaination. this makes me think that Gurmat has always contained the twin-Guruship model; Guru as the 'teacher', 'helper', 'prophet' or 'enlightener' and Guru Panth as 'collective responibility', sangat, brotherhood and the 'political/worldly power' etc. So the first five Guru Sahiban were both our teacher and our leaders in worldly matters, as both Miri-Piri in one. However after the Gurgaddi to Guru Granth the spiritual power has been with Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sehvi to Dasvi Patshahi have had power over Panthic matters/or been our sole leaders as in worldly matters. And when Khalsa was created the 'Guru Panth' authority was given to the Khalsa Panth...and today we still have this twin-Guruship; as Guru Granth and Guru Panth.

now remember everything i wrote above is just a continuity of what was said earlier...this does not need to be right. it is just a try to re-analyze our history...offcourse without any sound evidence. any thoughts?

Bhul Chukk Maaf Karna jee.