Krishan Is Called An Insect In Sri Dasam Granth

[chhokaranwala]

some people truly have no shame when it comes to distorting the message of Sikhi

You have been provided with several accepted translations of the Dasam Granth clearly referring to Krishna as the servant

but the truth is that some people have already made their minds up and try to find words to make the Guru speak for them instead of trying to understand the true message

For changig one word Ram Rai was rejected by the Guru but todays charlatans and fakes do not think twice before trying to promote their own insecurities and pre determined agendas on the scriptures.

I have noticed that for some people being Sikh is just being not-Hindu without any real beleif in Sikhi

[Matheen]

You have been provided with several accepted translations ........

The word 'keet' literally means worm/insect, which the translator has interpreted as servant. This shows why we should learn the languages Guru Ji used rather than rely on translations.

[Inder Singh]

Condemnation of the concept in Hindu theology that God takes various incarnations In Dasam Granth

* ਕਿਤੇ ਕਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਏ, ਉਸਾਰੇ ਗੜੇ ਫਿਰ ਮੇਟੇ ਬਨਾਏ॥

* He hath Created millions of Krishnas like worms. He Created them, annihilated them, again created them, again destroyed them.

* ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

* Somewhere He hath created millions of servants like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama. (pg.98)

* ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

* Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma, Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1. .(pg.1349)

* ਜਾਕਰ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਨਹਿ ਜਨਿਯਤ ਸੋ ਕਿਮ ਸਯਾਮ ਕਹੈ ਹੈ॥(ਸਬਦ ਹਜ਼ਾਰੇ ਪਾ.10)

* He, whose form and colour are not, how can he be called Shyaam (black)? .(p1349)

* ਕਾਹੂ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਂ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ॥...ਅੰਤ ਮਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਪਰ, ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ॥(33 ਸਵੈਯੇ)

* Someone calls Him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only One Creator.12. (p.1352)

* ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਇਓ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗਹਿ ਦੰਡ ਕਮੰਡਲ ਭੂਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਸਦਾ ਸ਼ਿਵਜੂ ਸਭ ਦੇਸ ਬਿਦੇਸ ਭਇਆ ਹਮ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥

* Brahma came into being under the control of time and taking his staff and pot his hand, he wandered on the earth; Shiva was also under the control of time and wandered in various countries far and near;

* ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥……..ਤੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਇ ਸਕੈ ਕਹੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਆਪਨ ਘਾਵ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥ਕੋਪ ਕਰਾਲ ਕੀ ਪਾਵਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੈ ਆਪ ਟੰਗਿਓ ਤਿਮ ਤੋਹਿ ਟੰਗੈਹੈ ॥

* Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims. Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee…….They cannot save themselves from the blow of death, how can they protect thee? They are all hanging in the blazing fire of anger, therefore they will cause thy hanging similarly. (pg111)

* ਖੋਜ ਰਹੇ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਸੇ ਜਿਹ ਅੰਤ ਅਨੰਤ ਕਹਿਓ ਥਕ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ਤਾਹੀ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਸੁਨੋ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਇਹੈ ਠਹਰਾਯੋ ॥੨੪੦੩॥

* He, whom Shiva etc. had been searching, but could not know His Mystery; O Shukdev ! relate to me the story of that Lord.2403.

* ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

* If you consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take birth from the womb of Kaushalya? He, who is said to be the destroyer of death, then why did he become subjugated himself before death?

* ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥

* If he (Krishna) is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna? O mind! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

* ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥

* Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

* ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥

* If he (Krishna) is said to be unborn and without a beginning, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki? He, who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father? 14.

* ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

* Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

* ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

* Relinquishing One Lord, you worship many. Likewise Sukhdev, Prashar and Vyas were proven false due to pantheism. All have established hollow religions. I believe in One God who reveals Himself in multifarious modes.(15)

* ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥

* Someone calls Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only by remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

* ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

* O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death. Therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who was in the past, is there in the present and will also be there in the future.16.

* ਕੋਟਕ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਾਨਇ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥ਦਾਨਵ ਦੇਵ ਫਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਧਰਾਧਰ ਪੱਛ ਪਸੂ ਨਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਨਾਯੋ ॥

* He, who created millions of Indras and Upendras and then destroyed them; He, who created innumerable gods, demons, Sheshnaga, tortoises, birds, animals etc.,

* ਆਜ ਲਗੇ ਤਪੁ ਸਾਧਤ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਊ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਖਯੋ ਜਿਹ ਸੋਊ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਤਾਯੋ ॥੧੭॥

* And for knowing whose Mystery, Shiva and Brahma are performing austerities even till today, but could not know His end; He is such a Guru, whose Mystery could not be comprehended also by Vedas and Katebs and my Guru has told me the same thing.17.

* ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਹਯੋ ਤਿਹਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਿ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

* The Vedas and Ketebs could not comprehend His Mystery and the adepts have been defeated in practicing contemplation; Different kinds of thoughts have been mentioned about God in Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and smrities; (p1351)

* ਸੋ ਕਿਮ ਮਾਨਸ ਰੂਪ ਕਹਾਏ॥ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਾਧ ਕਰ ਹਾਰੇ ਕਯੋ੍‍ ਨ ਦੇਖਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ ॥(ਸ. ਹਜ਼ਾਰੇ)

* How can He be said to come in human form? The Siddha (adept) in deep meditation became tired of the discipline on not seeing Him in any way…..Pause. (p.1348)

* ਸ਼ੇਸ਼ ਸੁਰੇਸ਼ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ ਗਾਹਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਥਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੂੜ ਅਗੂੜ ਇਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜਿ ਕਹੋ ਬਿਸਰਾਯੋ ॥4॥1350 33 ਸਵੈਯੇ

* Sheshnaga, Indra, Gandesha, Shiva and also the Shrutis (Vedas) could not know Thy Mystery; O my foolish mind! why have you forgotten such a Lord. 4.

[Nehmat]

Yes the word ਕੀਟ means insect, but that does not necessarily mean that Krishna is being called an insect.

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Another POSSIBLE translation may be that just as God has made many many insects he has also made many many Krishna's.

He made Krishnas, He also made many insects. Yes, this makes much more sense.

So basically, Maharaj Ji is telling us that God is capable of making 'anything' of any size, shape, or form.

Thank you TUBELIGHT!

[satpunga singh]

Raju is just spoiling this thread with his RSS views about how Britishers and the singh sabha movement abrahamized sikhi.

its a fact. read the history. singh sabha (SGPC) were a british backed organization, started to dilute the strength in history. when the singh sabha to over Takht Sri Akaal Bunga Singh (Akaal Takht), "master" Tara Singh threw Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji out of the window onto the Parkarma, shouting "now you dirty dogs can take your filthy book with you".

singh sabha along with the british introduced the view of superstition into sikhi aswel, and shanka on baani.

but this is all for another topic.

[satpunga singh]

Mhaa kaal rakhvaar hamaaroo | Mhaa(n) loh mai kinkar thaaro

I pray to my protector, the one that brings death to Death (the deity 'Klal'; which

was worshipped in the past). Oh unbreakable one, I am your slave.

Excuse me, my knowledge of hindu scriptures isn't upto scratch.

But isn't mahakaal a pseudonym for Shiv ?

you see, many names have different meanings in sikhi. e.g. brahma is a name for the hindu diety AND for God. as is vishnu, as is Shiva. Shiva is used for God in a passage from Chandi Charitra, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji; Deh Shiva Bar Moh Ehe...

here Guru Gobind Singh Ji is asking God in his warrior aspect, as Shiva in Indian history is a personicication for a warrior. hence the diety Shiva who too is a warrior.

Mahakaal is a name for shiva, but also a name for God. Mahakaal meaning the Great Death. relating to shiva as being the mythological "destruction of the world", as a name for God, as being the destroyer of EVERYTHING.

in Sri Sarbloh Granth there is a quote "Mahakaal Jagdees Hai, Sarbloh Avtar" meaning that Mahakaal (God) is the creator of the world (jag-world, dees-creator), and his form is of sarbloh (pure-iron).

[Papi]

Yes the word ਕੀਟ means insect, but that does not necessarily mean that Krishna is being called an insect.

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Another POSSIBLE translation may be that just as God has made many many insects he has also made many many Krishna's.

He made Krishnas, He also made many insects. Yes, this makes much more sense.

So basically, Maharaj Ji is telling us that God is capable of making 'anything' of any size, shape, or form.

Thank you TUBELIGHT!

You know, you sound like a cute little kiddie in your posts

I was going to say a cute little girl, but then I would have gotten hate mail in my Inbox. Not just any hate mail, SS style hate mail Oh wait I said it anyway...hmm...chalo I'll make sure I keep a bucket of freezing cold water handy when I read the hate mail.

[Raju]

you see, many names have different meanings in sikhi. e.g. brahma is a name for the hindu diety AND for God. as is vishnu, as is Shiva. Shiva is used for God in a passage from Chandi Charitra, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji; Deh Shiva Bar Moh Ehe...

here Guru Gobind Singh Ji is asking God in his warrior aspect, as Shiva in Indian history is a personicication for a warrior. hence the diety Shiva who too is a warrior.

Mahakaal is a name for shiva, but also a name for God. Mahakaal meaning the Great Death. relating to shiva as being the mythological "destruction of the world", as a name for God, as being the destroyer of EVERYTHING.

in Sri Sarbloh Granth there is a quote "Mahakaal Jagdees Hai, Sarbloh Avtar" meaning that Mahakaal (God) is the creator of the world (jag-world, dees-creator), and his form is of sarbloh (pure-iron).

Yes, I thought so too.

but what I understand from this is that the Nihangs practice a more puratanic form of Sikhism, which veers away from the more modern form of sikhism which was established after the 'Tat Khalsa' movement which grew in the patronage of British. So the group that went with mainstream Sikhism began to develop a silent or rather unspelt animosity with the Nihangs and the Udasis who were considered more pro-sanatanic and which directly derived vocabulary and inspiration from the dharmic-lexicon ?

It is also fascinating for me personally to note the large extent to which the british penetrated the Indic society and how the vestiges of their rule haunt us to this day. If the Mughals were purely barbarity, the British were barbarity mixed with deep cunning and manipulation of human psyche to meet their own ends. Truly they set out and screwed the country nice and proper.

And this ego clash within Sikhism between the sanatanics and the modernists is what is breeding the anti-Hinduism because the Sikhs as a community can't settle this amongst themselves since they can't raise their sword against brothers. It is weakening it from within.

this much I can gather from responses by various members and some external reading from internet sources.

[satpunga singh]

you see, many names have different meanings in sikhi. e.g. brahma is a name for the hindu diety AND for God. as is vishnu, as is Shiva. Shiva is used for God in a passage from Chandi Charitra, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji; Deh Shiva Bar Moh Ehe...

here Guru Gobind Singh Ji is asking God in his warrior aspect, as Shiva in Indian history is a personicication for a warrior. hence the diety Shiva who too is a warrior.

Mahakaal is a name for shiva, but also a name for God. Mahakaal meaning the Great Death. relating to shiva as being the mythological "destruction of the world", as a name for God, as being the destroyer of EVERYTHING.

in Sri Sarbloh Granth there is a quote "Mahakaal Jagdees Hai, Sarbloh Avtar" meaning that Mahakaal (God) is the creator of the world (jag-world, dees-creator), and his form is of sarbloh (pure-iron).

Yes, I thought so too.

but what I understand from this is that the Nihangs practice a more puratanic form of Sikhism, which veers away from the more modern form of sikhism which was established after the 'Tat Khalsa' movement which grew in the patronage of British. So the group that went with mainstream Sikhism began to develop a silent or rather unspelt animosity with the Nihangs and the Udasis who were considered more pro-sanatanic and which directly derived vocabulary and inspiration from the dharmic-lexicon ?

It is also fascinating for me personally to note the large extent to which the british penetrated the Indic society and how the vestiges of their rule haunt us to this day. If the Mughals were purely barbarity, the British were barbarity mixed with deep cunning and manipulation of human psyche to meet their own ends. Truly they set out and screwed the country nice and proper.

And this ego clash within Sikhism between the sanatanics and the modernists is what is breeding the anti-Hinduism because the Sikhs as a community can't settle this amongst themselves since they can't raise their sword against brothers. It is weakening it from within.

this much I can gather from responses by various members and some external reading from internet sources.

indeed you have done you research.

wha is now collectively known as "mainstream sikhi" is what was created by the SGPC (Singh Sabha). to actually encounter a tangible existance of the puratan snatan sikhi you will have to venture to Sri Hazoor Sahib Ji. here the original maryada is preserved, much to the unliking of the Tat Khalsa of Punjab.

for more reference on this, invest in a book called "In The Master's Presence, the Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib". in this book there is the complete history of the true snatan sikh maryada which has been carried out since the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

[Raju]

What I can say here, that while I feel more comfortable amidst Britsh-sponsored modern mainstream sikhism. It will begin to seem a bit unconnected somewhere and then people will go back to the nihangs and puranatic codes. And thus the disconnect will begin even at individual level.

While mainstream Sikhs will have a group, that involves the likes of myself, who will actively sponsor it and like it, there is bound to be a cultural disconnect at some point which shall have to be covered up by modernism.

Probably a lot of vice in Punjab and it's youth comes up from that part of cultural disconnect which they attempt to paper over by imported modernisms.

As a Christian, I will always prefer mainstream Sikhs and will feel uncomfortable among those with weird sanatanic or Aghori rituals. but still if that is the call that one has to take to connect to one's culture, I guess there is no other choice now is there ? A deep rift opens up as I study this further.