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Krishan Used Deceit In War Against Kharag Singh


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Jassa ji wrote

Guru hargobind sahib gave sikhs four fundamentals war politics and battles they are

1 Sham

2 Dam

3 Dand

4 Bhed

From where are you getting this? This is fromManu smuriti. Please do not give false details if you do not know.

Then he says

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥

The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.

I appreciate your affection for Lord Krishna. But here krishan murari means waheguru and not Lord krishana.

See in Asa di vaar

naanak nirbha-o nirankaar hor kaytay raam ravaal.

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him. kyqIAw kMn@ khwxIAw kyqy byd bIcwr ] (464-17, Awsw, mÚ 1)

kaytee-aa kanH kahaanee-aa kaytay bayd beechaar.

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

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From where are you getting this? This is fromManu smuriti. Please do not give false details if you do not know.

onkar word was first used in sama ved for god ...

if i say onkar word is given to sikhs by guru nanak am i right or wrong

and have u read suraj parkash granth ???

I appreciate your affection for Lord Krishna. But here krishan murari means waheguru and not Lord krishana.

what about other two tukks ... i no where said krishna was god himself but was an avtar a bhagat of akalpurkh ...

Plz comment on these tuks to

as per Guru Ram Das ji Krishna worshiped Lord

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

Service to the Guru is pleasing to the Lord Himself.

ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਲਭਦ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਗ ਲਗਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਰਾਵੈ ॥੪॥੫॥੪੩॥

O Nanak, the Lord Himself saves the Gurmukhs. ||4||5||43||

kirshna was the servent of lord

ਜਾਹਰਨਵੀ ਤਪੈ ਭਾਗੀਰਥਿ ਆਣੀ ਕੇਦਾਰੁ ਥਾਪਿਓ ਮਹਸਾਈ ॥

Bhaageerat'h the penitent brought the Ganges down, and Shiva established Kaydaar.

ਕਾਂਸੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਗਾਊ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥

Krishna grazed cows in Kaashi; through the humble servant of the Lord, these places became famous. ||2||

ਜਿਤਨੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਥਾਪੇ ਸਭਿ ਤਿਤਨੇ ਲੋਚਹਿ ਧੂਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਤਾਈ ॥

And all the sacred shrines of pilgrimage established by the gods, long for the dust of the feet of the Holy.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਸੰਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਾਧੂ ਲੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਧੂਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਈ ॥੩॥

Meeting with the Lord's Saint, the Holy Guru, I apply the dust of His feet to my face. ||3||

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Fateh!

Let's differentiate between strategy and outright deceit first.

Some common examples of strategy in MMA for example are:

- feint (pretend to strike in order to determine a reaction from your opponent then use the opening to strike)

- aim high, strike low (or look kight but strike low) - throw a jab at the opponents face then, when he raises his guard, go for a single-leg or double-leg takedown

- lower your guard to tempt your opponent to strike at your head, then go under his strike to take his legs out from under him

- more generally, fake an opening and use your anticipation of the opponents attack to dodge and counterattack

- when you are tired, hold on to the opponent in the clinch and tire him down by resting your full weight against him

- when you are in the mount but the opponent is resisting, cover his mouth with your hand to restrict his breathing

- when you are on the ground with your opponent, turn his head or cover his eyes to attack without him knowing what you are about to do

These are all acceptable skills that make one a martial artist rather than an unskilled opponent relying on strength and luck alone to win the battle.

Examples of strategy in warfare include:

- the use of camouflage to hide your position

- the use of guerrilla warfare against a numerically superior force (the preferred method of Sikh jathas against Mughals)

- psychological intimidation (wearing towering boongas, banging swords against shields to create a loud noise, use of battle cries like "Sat Sri Akal")

- ambush

- timing

The use of timing in warfare include:

- attacking the night before the enemy is ready

- attacking the night after the enemy has heavily fortified his position (the soldiers are going to be exhausted)

- attacking before the enemy patrol returns so that the enemy soldiers in the camp confuse the noises you make with the noise they are expecting from the returning patrol

- the night after the enemy has sustained heavy losses (harrying the retreat)

- the night before the enemy counterattacks (making use of the anxiety of the enemy troops as they anticipate the following day's battle)

- the night after a seige has been lifted (taking advantage of the enemy's relaxation)

- the night when the enemy is struck by plague, sickness, or some other calamity

- the night after the enemy has been wearied by a long and fruitless combat (making use of the enemy's exhaustion and frustration to further dishearten them)

- the night after the enemy is celebrating a victory (taking the enemy by surprise)

All of these strategies have been used in warfare since organised warfare began.

Perhaps this discussion would be more fruitful if we stopped talking about these Hindu deities and thought about what war strategies are approved of by Gurmat thought and the example of Sikh history.

Yes, the ultimate reason for the victories of the Khalsa Panth is Akal Purakh's and Guru Ji's bachan, but to believe that Sikhs had no understanding of battle strategy and warfare is to belittle the achievements of our ancestors.

Any takers? I have only started reading about Sikh battle strategy, so don't have much to contribute alas.

Regards,

K.

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may be i m not trying to put forward my views becuase of language ... but i no where challenged shaeeds and the gurmukhs who give shahhedi nor the sikh sidhants ... i m just trying to say something else ... and excuse me with spelling mistakes plz ...
No veerji don't worry I understood everything. Good to see your opinion. You are right that we have to train and be tyaar-bar-tyaar. The only reason why I commented was to clarify that as Singhs of Dasmesh Pita, we have to have an integrity such that we don't cheat even our enemy in battle. Sahib Sri Guru Hargobind Ji Maharaj offered His own sword to an opponent in battle. This is how fair a Sikh has to be in war.
Yes, the ultimate reason for the victories of the Khalsa Panth is Akal Purakh's and Guru Ji's bachan, but to believe that Sikhs had no understanding of battle strategy and warfare is to belittle the achievements of our ancestors.
No Singh ji, no one is trying to belittle the bravery and sacrifices of our ancestors. We are made to be both Sant and Sipahi. Depending on the situation, we have to act accordingly, but within the teachings of Gurmat.
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after all victory matters ... If some one uses sham or dam to get a victory over enemy who is 10 times stronger then him whats wrong with it ...

  • Ram killed Bali while hiding because Bali was too strong for Sugreev. Moreover, Ram didn't fight Bali himself.
  • Ram killed Ravan after being assisted by Vibheeshan, who was Ravan's own brother. He basically betrayed his brother by exposing the secret about Ravan being susceptible to death only if shot in his navel.
  • Dronacharya was killed by Drushtadyumman after he heard about the false news of his son Ashwathama's death. Drona was so emotionally shattered that he gave up his weapons and sat in meditation right in the battlefield. Thats when Drushtadyumman beheaded him.
  • Karan was killed by Arjun as he was fixing the wheel of his chariot. Who provoked Arjun? Krishan did! It was clearly against the rules of war as decided to kill/attack anyone unarmed, but he did it anyways.
  • Duryodhan was killed treacherously by Bheem. In gada yudh, you are not supposed to hit the opponent above his thighs, which is what Bheem did. Duryodhan had acquired supernatural powers as per which his entire body had become as hard as steel, except the part above his thighs, which again was Krishan's conspiracy, so that Duryodhan doesn't acquire a 100% steel body. Another example of treachery.

Jassa veeray, are all of the above mentioned acts of treachery and cheating also categorized under saam, daam, dand bhed?

Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj could have accepted Islam, gathered more money, trained soldiers and then fought the Mughals. He chose to sacrifice His life to uphold the principles of Sikhi.

Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj could have done the same. He chose not to. He upheld the honor of Sikhi and saved another religion Hinduism.

Chhote Sahibzaade could have converted to Islam, grabbed all the wealth, and then return to Sikhi and smash the Mughals up when they were older. They stuck to principles, not to any war strategy.

Maybe you know more than me, but from my limited knowledge, Sikhs don't depend on any "strategy" to win wars. Our surrender to our SatGuru's bhaana is what makes us victorious. Our naam kamaaee, our faith in Gurbani is what makes every one of us equal to 125,000, not any ran vidya I am sorry.

Yes we do have to follow strategies in war, but not at the cost of Sikhi principles.

even sikhs fought alongside meer manu against abadali which was part of sham to earn some peacefull time in punjab and grow more powerfull which worked for them ...
I have never heard/read that Sikhs fought on the side of Mir Mannu. Please provide evidence. I am interested to know and learn.
Result Of War Is Not About Who Was Right Its About Who Is Left
We had the Chhota Ghallughara, Wadda Ghallughara, Ghallughara of 1947, Ghallughara of 1984. We are still there, and we will always be there.

^^^^ good post

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Jassa give me an example where guru sahib used sham dam dand bhet. Those Sikhs who might have used these were fighting for political power and guru sahib did not fight for political power. Show me where Baba Banda Singh Bahadur used sham dam dand bhet. Show me where Baba Deep Singh used sham dam dand bhet. Show me where Sant Jarnail Singh used sham dam dand bhet.

And the exuses you make for Ram. Krishan using deceit are funny!

onkar word was first used in sama ved for god ...

It is omkara. and does not mean "there is only one god'.

Do you read bible, quran, old testament etc too or is your love restricted to veds only? Do you know who wrote the veds and where?

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Jassa give me an example where guru sahib used sham dam dand bhet

when guru sahib went to nander the king came to greet him ... guru sahib told him that land is belongs to them ... they told the king go and dig this place ... from there few things of guru sahib came a sarbloh mala and batta a wooden chauki etc ... guru sahib told this is the place which belongs to them since satyugh ... and left ... raja got disturbed seeing such a large land going ... there was also internal resistance against giving the land to sikhs ... guru sahib sensing this though they could have faught but they paid for it .. guru sahib knew they can fight today but they will claim this land again in future to keep sikhs on a safer side ... guru sahib paid 1400 rs(i think) in those days and bought that piece of land ... this is a place where sachkhand hazur sahib is made ...

there had been a fight between the kull of this king and hazzori singhs over the land and there has been also a court case in british court which ended up in sikhs favour keeping in mind guru sahib paid for it ...

This is an example of dam

and other famous sakhi of guru gobind singh ji famous as uch da peer ... everyone knows it ... thats a clear example of sham ...

i can give example of banda bahadur to where he send 50 soldiers a day for 7 days dressing and acting as bussiness men and slaves ... and on 7 th day banda bahadar attacked from outside and 350 sikh soldiers attacked from inside to win the fort ... and it was done in one day then 10 - 12 days which was predicted by other jarnails that there is no way to win this fort in a day ... this was trick used by banda bhadar which comes under sham and no sikh sidhant is even challenged while doing so ...

You have one thing in mind that sham dam dand bhed is written some where else so sikhs cant use it ... or using it is against sikhi ... because we think so ... i would say read suraj parkash granth atleast history of guru hargobind sahib to know more ...

It is omkara. and does not mean "there is only one god'.

do u even know whats sema ved ... how do u know its not onkar ... even omkars simple word meaning is timeless ... there is no mention of om even in rig veda ... the first common use of om is in bhgvat geeta ... sema ved contains onkar for god not omkar it also has a way hoy to say onkar in meditation its correct sound comes out oo(a)n(gggg)kar ... there are enough proofs that onkar was used before guru nanak ... but to sikhs it was given by guru nanak same with the teaching of guru hargobind sahib ... and i dont think there is any need to write about bible or quran here ...

guru hargobind sahib gave sham dam dand bhed to common sikhs source suraj parkash granth

sakhi of hazzor sahib where guru sahib used sham and dam again source suraj parkash granth

sakhis of sukha singh banda bhadar and other sikh using sham dam dand bhed source panth parkash

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Jassa give me an example where guru sahib used sham dam dand bhet

when guru sahib went to nander the king came to greet him ... guru sahib told him that land is belongs to them ... they told the king go and dig this place ... from there few things of guru sahib came a sarbloh mala and batta a wooden chauki etc ... guru sahib told this is the place which belongs to them since satyugh ... and left ... raja got disturbed seeing such a large land going ... there was also internal resistance against giving the land to sikhs ... guru sahib sensing this though they could have faught but they paid for it .. guru sahib knew they can fight today but they will claim this land again in future to keep sikhs on a safer side ... guru sahib paid 1400 rs(i think) in those days and bought that piece of land ... this is a place where sachkhand hazur sahib is made ...

there had been a fight between the kull of this king and hazzori singhs over the land and there has been also a court case in british court which ended up in sikhs favour keeping in mind guru sahib paid for it ...

This is an example of dam

and other famous sakhi of guru gobind singh ji famous as uch da peer ... everyone knows it ... thats a clear example of sham ...

i can give example of banda bahadur to where he send 50 soldiers a day for 7 days dressing and acting as bussiness men and slaves ... and on 7 th day banda bahadar attacked from outside and 350 sikh soldiers attacked from inside to win the fort ... and it was done in one day then 10 - 12 days which was predicted by other jarnails that there is no way to win this fort in a day ... this was trick used by banda bhadar which comes under sham and no sikh sidhant is even challenged while doing so ...

You have one thing in mind that sham dam dand bhed is written some where else so sikhs cant use it ... or using it is against sikhi ... because we think so ... i would say read suraj parkash granth atleast history of guru hargobind sahib to know more ...

It is omkara. and does not mean "there is only one god'.

do u even know whats sema ved ... how do u know its not onkar ... even omkars simple word meaning is timeless ... there is no mention of om even in rig veda ... the first common use of om is in bhgvat geeta ... sema ved contains onkar for god not omkar it also has a way hoy to say onkar in meditation its correct sound comes out oo(a)n(gggg)kar ... there are enough proofs that onkar was used before guru nanak ... but to sikhs it was given by guru nanak same with the teaching of guru hargobind sahib ... and i dont think there is any need to write about bible or quran here ...

guru hargobind sahib gave sham dam dand bhed to common sikhs source suraj parkash granth

sakhi of hazzor sahib where guru sahib used sham and dam again source suraj parkash granth

sakhis of sukha singh banda bhadar and other sikh using sham dam dand bhed source panth parkash

First of all Suraj Prakash granth is not GURBANI. So its not 100% accurate. I personally dont believe in uchh da peer sakhi. Its a made up sakhi. The sikh youth need to understand that only Gurbani is 100% accurate.

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oki ucha da peer sakhi is fake now ... Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan were the two muslims who still have a hukamnama with there ans bans written by guru sahib thanking them and telling sikh sangat these two muslim brothers helped them ... i have done its darshan at patiala once ... all you need is google ...

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurudwa...Sahib_(Alamgir)

ok i just used google to find out link to letter and guru sahib helped me out in very first try ... so i m editing my post

http://ghanikhannabikhan.com/

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