Why Follow A Strict Rehat Maryada

[Only five]

oh and somebody mentioned the menstrual cycle, should women not go at them times to the gurdwara, or just not participate in seva at that time?

Why can't moneh partake in langar di seva?

It has been proven even in science when you play some bad lyrics in a room the plants in the room are effected negatively by it. Same with water....play some bad lyrics by it and the water crystals will turn a deformed shape. When we cook food we are suppose to be doing simran and focusing on Maharaj. What we think, the way we act..all this negative or positive energy has an affect on the food. When a person is not Amritdhari, then there is something lacking in the person spiritually because they are unwilling to give there head to Maharaj. I have seen while doing seva....people touching there phone and then going back to serving langar, people shaking hands with someone and then going back right to the seva they were doing without washing up, also seen people touching their face then going back to doing seva without washing hands. Sadly it was always moneh guys doing this. But some of these moneh guys are at the Gurdwara doing alot of seva like sweeping floors, washing dishes, etc. So i got a lot of respect for these guys. But for langar it is wrong, when serving langar we need to be pure from the inside (given head to Maharaj.......actually practicing Sikhi and clean from the outside...wash hands, don't talk over the langar, focus on Maharaj when serving, etc).

oh and somebody mentioned the menstrual cycle, should women not go at them times to the gurdwara, or just not participate in seva at that time?

Women not allowed to be paatis at times of menstrual cycle has nothing to do with women are unclean from the inside (spiritually they are weak or inferior or because they are women). It has everything to do with preventing any mistakes from happening. Same goes with Singhs that have an open wound.....they can't sit on Maharaj's palki because we don't want a mistake to take place. It's about keeping utmost respect for Maharaj. Women when on their cycle still do paath from a Gutka...so again it has nothing to do with discriminating against women because their women. They can do paat from a Gutka because they are not sitting on Maharaj palki.

[papidas]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ||

i am impressed by the amount of knowledge here. But could someone answer the question as to why women aren't allowed to do Kirtan in SachKhand Sri Harmandir Sahib Ji. i have heard from people that they used to be until around the 1970-1980. Couldor someone help with this. i also advise all of the people arguing here to read the book Se Kinehiya. Sant Harnam Singh Ji Rampur Khera Wale were a Puran Braham Giani who followed all of Guru Sahib Ji's Rehat.

http://www.sikhvibes.com/downloads/PDFs/Se%20Kinehiya%20-%20English.pdf

That th English Readable version if you want audiobook or Punjabi Version let know and will get to you asap with Maharaj's Kirpa.

Bhul Chuk Muaaf Sumat Bakhshan Satguru Ji.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ||

[singher23]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ||

i am impressed by the amount of knowledge here. But could someone answer the question as to why women aren't allowed to do Kirtan in SachKhand Sri Harmandir Sahib Ji. i have heard from people that they used to be until around the 1970-1980. Couldor someone help with this. i also advise all of the people arguing here to read the book Se Kinehiya. Sant Harnam Singh Ji Rampur Khera Wale were a Puran Braham Giani who followed all of Guru Sahib Ji's Rehat.

http://www.sikhvibes.com/downloads/PDFs/Se%20Kinehiya%20-%20English.pdf

That th English Readable version if you want audiobook or Punjabi Version let know and will get to you asap with Maharaj's Kirpa.

Bhul Chuk Muaaf Sumat Bakhshan Satguru Ji.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ||

They aren't allowed except when they are goreh.

Obviously that needs to change

[UKLondonSikh]

@ onlyfive + 11Gurus1Jot ... yep everyone knows what the sehajdhari are far more guilty of or likely to indulge in ... but given that there are 7 billion people in the world ... and for argument's sake, let's say there are 28million Sikhs ... of whom perhaps 7 million are Kesdhari ... and perhaps 0.7 million may have partaken Amrit and not subsequently become patit ... can we really afford to be as morally restrictive in 2012 ... if by discouraging sehajdhari's ... we inadvertently prevent or delay them from coming into the Khalsa fold quicker as a result ... as well as de facto restricting Sikhi to areas of current day Punjab where Kesdhari appearance has historically been most common?

Even if all 28 million Sikhs did follow "outward" Rehat to the letter in all aspects ... surely, it goes without saying (based on reality that we have observed in our lives) that Sikhs as a Qaum would NOT be significantly better (pound-for-pound) than 6,972 million non-Sikhs in terms of how good our deeds+actions are before God's view? I've always been taught that in Sikhi our deeds + actions are much higher than "outward" Rehat. So if a non-Sikh donates one of his kidneys to a stranger needing a transplant ... oh insaan vi Khalsa Panth vichoh manay'ah jaa sak'dhaii in the wider sense of what Khalsa means and why Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gathered the Sangat at Vasakhi 1699. Particularly bearing in mind that Panj Pyaaray stood up out of say 50,000.

Would you not feel more comfortable if say of the global Khalsa Panth only 1% of the 700,000 Khalsay were Punjabi given that we surely cannot realistically expect a majority of the world's population outside of Punjab to become Kesdhari, let alone become Amritdhari. Sachai + insaaniyat can obviously not be restricted on the basis of the geographic location of one's birth. Ie wouldn't everyone in the Panth (including those who are clearly not suited) becoming a Khalsa defeat the whole purpose of what Guru Sahib was introducing? If non-Sikhs were to initially become sehajdhari that wouldn't that be the best hope of Rehat truly being followed by a dedicated minority within the wider Qaum rather than so many turning patit in Punjab?

I hope I don't offend either of you brothers with my post as I know in my heart that you both follow Sikhi to a much greater degree than I do ,as sadly I'm not yet spiritually advanced enough to be Amritdhari myself (for which i respect you unreservedly on that).

Rabh Rakha

[Only five]

@ onlyfive + 11Gurus1Jot ... yep everyone knows what the sehajdhari are far more guilty of or likely to indulge in ... but given that there are 7 billion people in the world ... and for argument's sake, let's say there are 28million Sikhs ... of whom perhaps 7 million are Kesdhari ... and perhaps 0.7 million may have partaken Amrit and not subsequently become patit ... can we really afford to be as morally restrictive in 2012 ... if by discouraging sehajdhari's ... we inadvertently prevent or delay them from coming into the Khalsa fold quicker as a result ... as well as de facto restricting Sikhi to areas of current day Punjab where Kesdhari appearance has historically been most common?

Life is about growing up, becoming better than yesterday, learning from mistakes, and never stop learning. It took about 250 years for the Panth to grow up to it's full potential. On the way there, those that kept growing, were rewarded, those that stopped were told to keep going, those who after being told to keep growing and they didn't listen, were shown the door from doing seva in Guru's court. Those that denied the teaching even after being told many times to stop their bad behaviour, but held on to the Guru's court with force were burnt alive. There are many different types of people in the Khalsa Panth. This is not a new occurence we are seeing. There is no reason to worry or fear anything. Guru Sahib and Khalsa Panth never discourage a person who is moving forward in Sikhi. Even Amritdharis are not learnt, they still need to grow, but they are further down the road of Sikhi than others. Those that are jeaslous are usually the ones that stop learning and hold on to the Guru's court by force. Do you see the Khalsa Panth getting up and burning such people alive? The Khalsa has every right to do this. Instead the Khalsa Panth is still using the method Guru Sahib uses with those who keep on learning, giving pyare. Not because the Khalsa wants to increase numbers of the Panth because they actually see Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj in the person, even though they still disrespect Maharaj. If you look at it from a Sikh history perspective, then these guys should be glad the Khalsa is very passive today. And they are passive today because they are waiting for these guys to change. It takes a lot of humility to sit back day in and out to watch Maharaj be disrespected. Today there is no more pyare or humility left in people. These same people wouldn't stand a second if there family member or themselves are slandered. They would go to great lengths just to get you back in a very vicious way and they have shown they are capable of this kind of stuff. Look at the Khalsa, who is full of so much wisdom, so much shakti, so much bir rass....in a second they can change the meaning of vicious, but they are waiting for those to learn, who don't want to learn.

If it's about perspective then that's how i see it.

[Kaal]

Life is about growing up, becoming better than yesterday, learning from mistakes, and never stop learning. It took about 250 years for the Panth to grow up to it's full potential. On the way there, those that kept growing, were rewarded, those that stopped were told to keep going, those who after being told to keep growing and they didn't listen, were shown the door from doing seva in Guru's court. Those that denied the teaching even after being told many times to stop their bad behaviour, but held on to the Guru's court with force were burnt alive. There are many different types of people in the Khalsa Panth. This is not a new occurence we are seeing. There is no reason to worry or fear anything. Guru Sahib and Khalsa Panth never discourage a person who is moving forward in Sikhi. Even Amritdharis are not learnt, they still need to grow, but they are further down the road of Sikhi than others. Those that are jeaslous are usually the ones that stop learning and hold on to the Guru's court by force. Do you see the Khalsa Panth getting up and burning such people alive? The Khalsa has every right to do this. Instead the Khalsa Panth is still using the method Guru Sahib uses with those who keep on learning, giving pyare. Not because the Khalsa wants to increase numbers of the Panth because they actually see Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj in the person, even though they still disrespect Maharaj. If you look at it from a Sikh history perspective, then these guys should be glad the Khalsa is very passive today. And they are passive today because they are waiting for these guys to change. It takes a lot of humility to sit back day in and out to watch Maharaj be disrespected. Today there is no more pyare or humility left in people. These same people wouldn't stand a second if there family member or themselves are slandered. They would go to great lengths just to get you back in a very vicious way and they have shown they are capable of this kind of stuff. Look at the Khalsa, who is full of so much wisdom, so much shakti, so much bir rass....in a second they can change the meaning of vicious, but they are waiting for those to learn, who don't want to learn.

If it's about perspective then that's how i see it.

I agree, I believe that growth for Sikhs is only based on Spiritual Growth. It might sound unimaginable how someone can grow spiritually, but through continuous abhiyaas on Naam and Gurbani we develop guns (virtues). Naam and Gurbani is what made Sant Jarnail Singh what he is, same goes for Baba Deep Singh and Banda Singh Bahadur. All the qualities they possess has come from making all kinds of effort with Gurbania and Naam. Did you know that writing Gurbani/Guns is a rehit/hukam from Guru Granth Sahib Jee because it increases spirituality fast, why do you think Baba Deep Singh Jee was so POWERFUL? That's the Paras Kala of Gurbani and Naam that by touching it again and again we become gods -

ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਉਹਾੜੀ ਸਦ ਵਾਰ ॥

A hundred times a day, I am a sacrifice to my Guru;

ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਸ ਤੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਤ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ਵਾਰ ॥੧॥

He made gods out of men, without delay. ||1||

[simran345]

well there are always two sides to a topic. @onlyfive, how can one say what a person is like inside. Nobody can see inside the person, and would either need to be god or a brahmgiani in order to do that. I'm not putting all amritdharis down, before somebody says i've written wrong. I have full respect for amritdharis, but I have also experienced that what you have experienced with moneh people. Because they took amrit did not mean they are nice people from inside. One can only be nice and clean from inside if they practise the rehat maryada after taking amrit and that does not mean just what somebody looks like on the outside. One's heart needs to be pure too.

I know some amritdharis that in public were are all show and know it alls, whereas at home, they are very dirty people, no hygiene or cleanliness and as people are nasty.

One cannot judge somebody just because they have took amrit. I understand what you are saying, but I dont feel its wrong morally if a mona serves langar or prepares it. To me its all about the cleaniness and hygiene that is used. If somebody is drunk or smoking or not had a shower then I feel it is wrong. I have also seen amritdharis talk over langar. So its not just one sided opnions.

And if it is so wrong then why do the gurdwaras let moneh prepare langar and serve langar? Why do gurdwaras let them hold akhand paths? And why do amritdhari sikhs also eat the same langar that the monehs have prepared? And why do they also get served by moneh people? At this week's nagar kirtan, there were amritdharis and moneh doing seva in the langar hall, I being one of them, and also granthis. Who all ate the same food, all worked alongside each other. Then how come I never got thrown out of the kitchen if its so wrong?

I also had an amritdhari aunty visit me at the weekend, who not once moaned or hesitated to have her roti be made by me, or be served food, as she knows I'm not going to give her anything that she cannot eat, and she also knows that i will give it to her with care, with clean hands.

Monehs are not stupid nor neither children, that if they are going to do seva, obviously they will be very cautious and be apply the utmost hygiene when preparing langar. They know they are not at home, and the ones that u have seen applys to the same group of amritdharis I have seen.

Not everybody is the same, just because we see a minority doing something wrong. Although I do understand what you are saying as an amritdhari sikh will have more knowledge of the care and sucham that is required for maharaj ji as they would have apply in their daily lives. But I also know a lot of moneh that are aware of the respect that is required when preparing and serving langar at the gurdwara or whether at home.

[Only five]

well there are always two sides to a topic. @onlyfive, how can one say what a person is like inside. Nobody can see inside the person, and would either need to be god or a brahmgiani in order to do that. I'm not putting all amritdharis down, before somebody says i've written wrong. I have full respect for amritdharis, but I have also experienced that what you have experienced with moneh people. Because they took amrit did not mean they are nice people from inside. One can only be nice and clean from inside if they practise the rehat maryada after taking amrit and that does not mean just what somebody looks like on the outside.

If you read my last post addressed to UKlndonsikh, then you can understand from where i am coming from. Here is an example and i want you to answer these questions. Say i walked into your house, after you invited me. Obviously you have rules in your house and you expect guest to respect your rules by following them. Instead of respecting your rules, i walk in with mud on my shoes and don't care about your rug because i walked on it with my shoes on. You tolerate it and just hold back your tongue from saying anything......it was a mistake i didn't know right. Next you offer something to eat and drink. I take it and once i take a drink, it taste disgusting and i spit it out on your rug. This time you speak up and tell me to be careful and you clean it up. I apology and just shrug it off like it's nothing. Next i get up go into your kitchen and just start looking through your kitchen for some food and drinks that i like. And you still tolerate it, but in a polite way ask what i want, that you can find it for me. However i ignore you and end up spilling food on your floor trying to grab something from the back of your fridge. I keep breaking your rules over and over and just say i will be more careful every time i break your rules. Here is the question. At what point do you say that's enough, i had enough of you, please leave my house?

Speaking in general.......many people wouldn't even let me in after rubbing the mud into their rug. Now ask yourself how many chances do both groups get whether they are amritdhari or not in Guru's court to correct their behaviour. One incident i heard took place between a Amritdhari and a moneh. The Amritdhari countless times told the moneh to correct his behaviour. The moneh just didn't listen, instead he responded with insulting words. The Amritdhari practically begged this moneh to fix his action because he was disrespecting Maharaj. But the moneh just didn't care. So the Amritdhari took action in the only way that was let. The beating this moneh got was a lesson of a life time. Now tell us how many times you have heard a moneh or Amritdhari get beat up for refusing to respect Maharaj? Ask me how many times i gave a beating to a moneh for refusing to do the right action, since many people on this forum think i have no tolerance? I have only heard about a very small number of cases and have never laid a hand on anyone for refusing to do the right action. So what does this tell you about Amritdharis that follow rehat? Are they nice people that have a very high level of tolerance when Maharaj is being disrespected or a very low level?

When you enter someone else's house.....learn what the rules are and if your not following them, then learn how to meet the rules. Like i said to uklondonsikh...its about learning and being a better Sikh than yesterday. Why don't Gurdwaras stop moneh and Amritdharis that don't follow rehat from enter the kitchen and serving langar. The same reason why you don't stop a child from practicing how to correct his mistakes. But the problem is, that some moneh and some amritdharis don't see it as a way for them to progress in SIkhi. They see it as we have a right to do this and we don't need to progress in SIkhi. So what should be the punishment for these people? Can you go into a court yelling a screaming and not be expected to be arrested? Where there is fear people follow the rules, but the Khalsa doesn't want to drive fear into people. That's not the way to teach.

This is not a battle of moneh vs. amritdharis, but those moneh and amritdharis that want to progress should stick together and call a spade a spade. If this happened you would witness a lot of changes at the Gurdwara. Last question...An Amrithdhari is bound by rehat, so it`s easier to tell them what they should do. But what is a moneh bound by, where they will follow the rehat of the Guru`s court? Can a person who didn't even sign on the line (take Amrit) say i will follow rehat?

Its time to stop fearing societies rules and start thinking about follow the rules of Guru's court. There is a police as well in the Guru's court to enforce the rules, but they don't work as secular society police does by driving fear into you.

[UKLondonSikh]

Life is about growing up, becoming better than yesterday, learning from mistakes, and never stop learning. It took about 250 years for the Panth to grow up to it's full potential. On the way there, those that kept growing, were rewarded, those that stopped were told to keep going, those who after being told to keep growing and they didn't listen, were shown the door from doing seva in Guru's court. Those that denied the teaching even after being told many times to stop their bad behaviour, but held on to the Guru's court with force were burnt alive. There are many different types of people in the Khalsa Panth. This is not a new occurence we are seeing. There is no reason to worry or fear anything. Guru Sahib and Khalsa Panth never discourage a person who is moving forward in Sikhi. Even Amritdharis are not learnt, they still need to grow, but they are further down the road of Sikhi than others. Those that are jeaslous are usually the ones that stop learning and hold on to the Guru's court by force. Do you see the Khalsa Panth getting up and burning such people alive? The Khalsa has every right to do this. Instead the Khalsa Panth is still using the method Guru Sahib uses with those who keep on learning, giving pyare. Not because the Khalsa wants to increase numbers of the Panth because they actually see Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj in the person, even though they still disrespect Maharaj. If you look at it from a Sikh history perspective, then these guys should be glad the Khalsa is very passive today. And they are passive today because they are waiting for these guys to change. It takes a lot of humility to sit back day in and out to watch Maharaj be disrespected. Today there is no more pyare or humility left in people. These same people wouldn't stand a second if there family member or themselves are slandered. They would go to great lengths just to get you back in a very vicious way and they have shown they are capable of this kind of stuff. Look at the Khalsa, who is full of so much wisdom, so much shakti, so much bir rass....in a second they can change the meaning of vicious, but they are waiting for those to learn, who don't want to learn.

If it's about perspective then that's how i see it.

I don't disagree with a single thing in what you've said above Paji. I think my wider point, perhaps in contrast to yours, was that if there are less Khalsay of greater spiritual depth and doing greater sewa, that that is actually better for Sikhi than others perhaps becoming Amritdhari but partaking in activities not befitting a Khalsa (or even Kesdhari for that matter). Ie that if anything Kesdhari should should be an intermediate level for people who feel who are nearing the level of spiritual discipline required to be a Khalsa (rather than a startting point for someone's introduction to Sikhi). For myself personally, outward rehat has been relatively easy in my personal life but having true Khalsa qualities i know is a quantum leap (for myself at least). Also, as I see it, the Khalsa Fauj was urgently needed a decade or so back being in the forefront of halting the genocides in Rwanda and DR Congo. However, given that we couldn't even effectively defend our own Qaum betweeen particularly 1984-1995, i think we need to keep a very open mind in regards to who is on "our" side in terms of sehajdhari numbers (in spite of the their accepted levels of progression being initial stages as they acknowledge) and others not popularly regarded as being within mainstream Sikhi. To give you an idea of my liberal stance on the issue, I genuinely believe anyone who bows before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is a Sikh (learner) in the widest sense.

[simran345]

@onlyfive, yes there are rules that have to be obeyed by and when i or somebody goes to the gurdwara those rules should be adhered to. It doesn't matter if the person is amritdhari or mona or black white or brown. And the gurdwara is for welcome to everybody. The same rules apply to amritdharis too, if the rules are not followed. If anybody does not follow the rules regardless of what they are, and does not respect maharaj ji would be fools including myself. If moneh do not know Wat to do the onus is upon them to ask. I am not talking about you onlyfive, i am also giving an example that i have also experienced. I agree it is not a battle of mona versus amritdhari, but i am not the one that mentions moneh serving langar is wrong.

If langar is served to you by me, having my head covered, serving with clean hands and not talking, would you not accept it then?

If somebody does not respect the rules of the gurdwara then it is up to the gurdwara committee to come to a solution to the problem. But you should not class all moneh the same, as amritdharis too can make mistakes. Nobody is perfect.

I agree with some of your points but it seems you are classing all moneh as the same which they are not.