why sikhism isn't for me....yet?

[chatanga]

Guru is God

in the eastern religions(excepting Gurmat, which looks as the Shabad Guru rather than human Guru) all the Gurus or teachers/guides were treated on a par with God, that isnt to say that they WERE God, but as they were the guide to deliverance, they were treated as if they were actually God. This is common throughout Eastern philosophies. Gurmat broke the mould.

[curioustoknow]

Lets identify the "Guru" first, is it the body of Guru Nanak Dev Ji? No, it is the Shabad, the Word of Sri Akal, so firstly, the Word was never seperate from Sri Akal, so the question of the "Guru" connecting with Sri Akal is nonsensical.

But can I ask is it not in Islam, that one cannot be submissive/obedient to Allah, unless he recognises that Mohamed is the Messenger of Allah and the seal of the Prophets?

Dont confuse the human bodies of the Gurus with God. The human body was or is not God, it was the eternal WORD, the Shabad which is worthy of worship, not the actual human body. By that reasoning someone could say the Sikhs havent had a Guru since 1708, after 10th Guru.

Yes, it is, but Muhammed PBUH was not considered God

I understand and agree with what you say about the Word being God...but at the same time, didn't Guru Nanaak used to wash his feet and let people drink the water to bestow blessings on them?

Wouldn't that be considered a physical embodiment, not just a spiritual?

[Mehtab Singh]

Do you believe Hazrat Muhammad traveled to heaven and returned in the time it takes to blink an eye? Do you believe Jesus brought the dead back to life? Do you believe Moses walked on the path the sea cleared up for him? Then howcome you don't believe that Guru Sahib was God Himself? Gurbani says there is no difference between God and Guru. In fact I am not comfortable using the word "God" as it is so Semitic. In fact, several Hindus and Muslims as well who met the Guru Sahibaan did confess that "Thour art Allah Himself". See the problem is you are trying to analyze apples using the information you have about oranges. You are trying to understand Sikhi from an Islamic point of view. You need to shed away all preconceived notions you have and set your mind independent before you start studying Sikhi. You will entirely miss the context of things if you hold onto any specific mindset. In Islam Allah isn't believed to be omnipresent, in Sikhi, Vaaheguroo jee is. Once again, read up the lives of the Guru Sahibaan. You'll realize that there is no difference between the sun, the sun rays, and sunlight.

[chatanga]

Yes, it is, but Muhammed PBUH was not considered God

I understand and agree with what you say about the Word being God...but at the same time, didn't Guru Nanaak used to wash his feet and let people drink the water to bestow blessings on them?

Wouldn't that be considered a physical embodiment, not just a spiritual?

Muhammed PBUH was not considered God, but the connection of him with God is essential for a Muslim. You cant be a Muslim unless you recognise Muhammed, so the connection between God and Muhammed is there.

Charan Pahul was the form of physical connection with the Word, not a spiritual connection. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not connecting these people with himself physically by giving them amrit.

I can see where this debate is heading, it is heading towards the Sargun/Nirgun God. Sargun/Nirgun God is unfathomable to Abrahamic faiths, and I personally are still learning about this. There are other people on this forum who are able to explain God better than me.

You are trying to understand Sikhi from an Islamic point of view.

this is natural, as you have been following this beleif system for years, but try to think outside of the "box" as we say in UK.

[curioustoknow]

I'm really not debating anything I'm not trying to bring Islam into this, but because I have said I am a Muslim this continually gets Brought up I'm trying to understand if the Gurus were considered the physical embodiment of God Or not...some say yes some say no this seems to be too important of an issue to just let go...do sikhs worship the gurus as physical God or not?

[Only five]

I'm really not debating anything I'm not trying to bring Islam into this, but because I have said I am a Muslim this continually gets Brought up I'm trying to understand if the Gurus were considered the physical embodiment of God Or not...some say yes some say no this seems to be too important of an issue to just let go...do sikhs worship the gurus as physical God or not?

What is physical about God?

[chatanga]

do sikhs worship the gurus as physical God or not?

No, we dont, Waheguru's permanent state is one of Nirgun, one without physical attributes, His Sargun, physical dimension is only temporary.

This is kinda hard to explain, but what is Waheguru in Sikhi? This is the answer you are looking for. Then you will find the answer to the question you have asked above.

[Sherdil]

The gurus were not God.

They were not worshipped as God.

There is only one God, as stated in Mool Mantar.

Some will argue that they were manifestations of the divine. We are ALL manifestations of the divine.

[N30S1NGH]

Chatana is right, its hard to explain. But i will give it try anyway:

You will find two Sikh school of thoughts-

Modern day Sikh thought of God: abhramic version of God (thanks to protestant victorian christian fanatics when they were ruling India, they implanted their protestant victorian influence on sikh thought- to divide and rule- Sikh religion as we were seen as a threat- British umpire)

Traditional Sikh thought of creator:

Vahiguroo (God)

In Sikh theology, Vahiguroo is ONE ( "Ik" Ongkar). However, to realize and feel oneness of Vahiguroo in everyone, in everything and in Vahiguroo attributes, Vahiguroo is consider to have two states- nirgun and sargun. In fact, whole sikh foundation is based on nirgun and sargun state of Vahiguroo.

Definition of Nirgun form/state of Vahiguroo in its essence is Sat(truth) Chit(Supreme Consciousness) anand (Blissful) which cannot be described but knowledge of supreme existence of Vahiguroo can only be felt and attained

Definition of Sargun form/state of Vahiguroo- Sargun state of Vahiguroo is when nirgun original state of Vahiguroo immanent its attributes:

i) Shabad Mantras which explains the attributes of Vahiguroo but most importantly- shabad which has (gyan)knowledge of Vahiguroo When one meditates on shabad, it unites human being fully with God.

ii) Creation- creator is infused in its creation like how fragnance is infused into the flower.

iii) Physical form of Vahiguroo- Highest emobidment of Vahiguroo- Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji divine avtar of Nirgun Vahiguroo followed by six different type of avtars in Indic Philosphy.

Nirgun state of Vahiguroo transcendent its attributes to sargun during creation and it's ever present through out cycle of yugas/ages (Satjug, treta, dvapar and kaljug).

Perfect example of Nirgun transcedenting its immanent to Sargun is deep spiritual meaning of - Ikongkar (First Mantra in our living guru- Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ikongkar~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ik- Indicates Nirgun form/state of Vahiguroo

Ong- indicates nirgun attributes transcedent itself to sargun - shabad/creation

Kar- Kar intertwines both sargun and nirgun state of Vahiguroo

b) What are Vahiguroo attributes?

- Attributes of Vahiguroo are limitless and its beyond human comprehension as stated in jaap sahib (one of most important composition which talks about nirgun sargun flow of God).

However, main attributes of Vahiguroo are mentioned in Gurmantar- Vahiguroo itself and Mool Mantra.

Gurmantar- Vahiguroo

Vahi (Acharaj/Wonderful Roop) Guroo - Bring one from darkness to light

As our state of mind changes, one start feeling deeper meaning of Vahiguroo Gurmantar-

Vahi (Acharaj/Wonderful roop) Guroo- chaitan roop (all prevading super consciousness atma paratma)

Mool Mantra-

Ikongkar = ( One Vahiguroo Nirgun/Sargun Interconnected/intertwine with one and another)

Satnaam- His name is truth

Kartapurkh- He himself is creator.

Nirbhau- He is without fear.

Nirvair- He does not have any enemy

Akaal Moorat- He is without time, he is exist without shape or form.

Ajooni- Without birth/death

Saibhang- He is light of knowledge

Gurparsad - He can be felt by grace of Guru(Vahiguroo)

Jap - Meditate

Aad sach means Vahiguroo always been truth. One cannot find confine- Vahiguroo in time or space- Aad Sach.

Jagud Sach- From the beginnning of all yugs(ages) you are truth.

Habhi Sach: Vahiguroo is truth in the present with no change.

Nanak Hosi bhi sach: Nanak says, vahiguroo will be always truth in future with any change

In gurbani nirgun and sargun are one:

Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap, Aaapie Kiya Nanaka Apaie Fer Jaap ||

Gurbani further illustrates one immanent to many:

Nirgun Tae Sargun Thiya (From Nirgun vahiguroo, sargun came).

From formless, He appeared as form.

Then in Jaap sahib, Guru gobind singh ji shows us how nirgun transcedent to many and then from many back to one(Nirgun):

Ek moorat(i) anek darsan koon roop anek|| (Jaap)

Thou, the One Entity, appearest as Many creating innumerable forms.

Khel khel akhel khelan ant ko phir(i) ek||81||

After playing the world-drama, when Thou wilt stop the play, Thou wilt be the same One again.81.

b) How this whole universe was created?

- The whole universe/multiverse was created by shabad resosance(divine sound) upon nirgun vahiguroo transcedenting its attributes to sargun.

As our living guru- gurbani states:

Utpat Parloa Shabade Hovaie

Creation and destruction occurs through divine shabad

Shabade hi fir opat hovaie

Through the shabad, creation happens again.

c.)What is the shabad behind creation and destruction?

Gurbani states:

Pirthame On(g)kar So Dhun Poran Jagat Mae Raha ||

Fist ongkar was recited and that resosance created world and give nourishment to this world. (Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib)

Ongkar aad kathni anad, Khal Khand Khyal Gurbar Akaal ||

[curioustoknow]

Very informative, thank you...and for the prophets who brought miracles, they only were able to perform the miracles because God allowed them to, not because they were God. There is even a story in the Torah where Misses PBUH took credit for one of the miracles and was severely punished for it...so the humans were not the embodiment of God himself but were given a small amount of Gods power to use in accordance with Gods will.

Question for the person who said Guru Nanaak wasn't born, I am not so sure I follow, he had a mother a father, and a sister, or are you referencing to when he came up out of the river enlightened? Or how about just explain to me what you mean please