Shastarvidiya - In West Midlands ?

[Cisco_Singh]

It's all hot air on both sides, there's other venues other than Gurdwara halls to hold classes.. There's no need to threaten committee members makes no sense.. The KFC meeting witnessed by some conveniently anonymous gurdwara member is pretty laughable looks like a blatant attempt to stir up trouble..

[chatanga]

If there could be meeting or discussion between bhai kulbir singh ji akj and missionary (anti dasam heretic- ghuggha and jeonwala) peacefully/gracefully/respectfully in Canada, which was pure class(please check it out on youtube) .. i m sure there could be meeting between you lot in england peacefully, and get this sorted out before taking matters to the courts and legal threats etc..!!

May be we need senior gurmukh -taksali mediator to call up on meeting or something, both sides need to show some class and sort it out gracefully..!!

I was thinking about this, why not have a debate? It will give both sides a chance to get their views across.

But the downside is, that will either side be willing to change stance if they know they have been proved wrong?

I mean even that fool ghagga admitted he would change certain words in his books, after kulbir singh told him a few points from gurmat angle.

Would nt it be better for the Sikh Panth?

[N30S1NGH]

Chatanga veer thats exactly it. before that, i think we do need senior taksali mediator/moderator who have best of both worlds (sanatan/puratan[whatever you want to call it] and mainstream) before we can even think about debate.

[Guest]

There needs to be a real meeting held.

[Guest]

Good job taran Singh!Keep up the good work.

[taran0]

Cisco singh hot air on both sides - im not the one calling out challenges and wanting a fight "turn up to the akhara then, if you think you bad" - "say it to his face then"-

I actually want a discussion!

I tell you what leave kulbir and the taksali's , we can do one better we can get NIhangs to converse with Nidar, who better to say what the NIhangs do and don't beleive then they themselves....

and the KFC thing, i am not joking - i thought it was like crazy too, i can get the guy to join up and say it officially

ask Nidar's students they will tell you.... they went to KFC afterwards.......

[N30S1NGH]

I am not surprised at kfc thing but speaking of which- does other side have problem with them going to kfc period or them wearing bana and then going to kfc or both?

[taran0]

two weeks ago Nidar called the CTU (Counter terrorism Unit) on me,

I spoke to them and explained that I worked on the Sikh Cyber Museum in 2003 as a curator and Project co-ordinator and also used to work for Birmingham Museums as a Web Researcher so i have a personal interest in Anglo-Sikh History. I have been involved in many Interfaith seminars and have good links with many different sections of the community.

I have only written articles online and proven my points using scripture and reasoning providing evidence and quotes were relevant. I haven't incited any hatred or violence, in fact it is Nidars students who keep challenging me to attend their class and have a battle with him - I referenced Nidar's Hadh Torr Challenge as proof, and the many threatening emails and messages from Nidar's students I had received online.

I provided them with various letters and articles relating to Nidar. Also highlighting where I have made it very clear on the website and forums - that this is not a violent movement but one of a group of parents who are concerned for the kids who will eventually go to his classes, and be brainwashed with his ideology.

They asked me about the forged letter - and I said the letter was signed by the individuals listed, they are well known jathedars not hard to get hold of you could get a Punjabi translator to ring them and ask them all individually to verify (on a side note when at Guru Tegh Bahadur last Thursday, I asked Nidar's students if they had verified the letter is fake, their only response was "Gurdev had spoken to people" I said but haven't any of you thought to investigate yourself and find out, I said don't believe me or him check for yourselves)

I continued to tell of my surprise that Nidar would stoop to such a low level or feel so threatened and shook up by a small guy like me and a simple website that he would call the CTU on me.

Again Nidar would call us the British influenced firenghi Sikhs, yet he is the first one to run under their protection.

Are these the actions of the "Last Sikh Warrior" ?

We also learned from Nidars students last thursday that one of Nidar's students called "Machhi" has ridiculously been claiming that his car was shot at ..... I was like WHAT?

I have kept quiet about this as I didn't want things to get out of hand but I think time has come to talk about all these nasty tactics used by Nidar to undermine anyone who opposes him. I know Nidar and his boys definitely talked to the CTU as the officer mentioned some things that Nidar said to him.

I laughed with the officer saying look at me, do I look like a threat - I don't need to threaten anyone or use violence we are beating Nidar with just mere words and articles - why would I want to jeopardise all the research and effort put in by all the Singhs to make the sangat aware of this fake guru and spoil it all.

The officer was very understanding and could see how Nidar was trying to play the fanatic/terrorist card to undermine my research. I'm glad the British police system is understanding and I understand the officers were just doing their job and they did it profesionally without causing anyone any distress. Well done to them.

then I got thinking and thought what if we would have been in India, if a Singh would be reported just because a malicious person wanted to get back at them and acuused them of beign a terrorist, would the Punjab Police listen to them or give them a chance, or owudl it be beat first and question later, I think the outcome would woudl have been really different.

I for one am glad I live in England a free country where people can openly and freely discuss and air their views in a professional and respectable manner without being "shut-up" or "scared off" by nefarious elements or religious extremists using the government or corrupt police to protect them from being opposed.

[kullykhalsa]

Is this the same kully khalsa who in a previous post pretended not to be a fan, and independant...... hehehheheheh

the problem is that whenever anyone ever gets close to NIdar he's always the first to run to the police and accusing everyone of being a fanatic.

I have been fed up for a while with Nidars students keeping on about "turn up to the Akhara and say it to his face, our ustads bigger then yours", well last thursday at Guru Tegh Bahadur Gurdwara , Wolverhampton, Nidar turned up with 20 or so of his students barged into the Gurdwara and was trying to force his classes on the Gurdwara, however 2 weeks earlier on receiving a letter from the Gurdwara stating that he can no longer hold his classes there, he would not even speak to the committee when given the chance.

Me and two Singhs went down last Thursday to support the committee because we felt that he would try something, I got a chance to say a few words to "The Last Sikh Warrior" and he wouldn't even look me in the eye, he accused me of "flaring up the passions with my website" to which I replied "your website has been causing offence online for ten years and now you know how it feels" I told him your the gurdev of the Hindu-Sikh Shastarvidiya?, he said yes , i replied well go and teach at a hindu-sikh mandir then if you can find one"

i told him straight to his face, this is a Gurdwara, people send their kids here thinking that Gurmat as is understood by the sangat will be taught here, and if people are being taught and if soemthing completely contradictory is being taught then those parents have a right to know. to which he turned around and started saying i was a trouble causer, i said you have been kicked out of somerset road gurdwara and he claimed that the comittee had been kicked out for drug dealing, i almost laughed i was like where the hell you get that story from, and what about all the drug abuse within your akhara.

I was expecting soemone with wisdom who would properly be able to converse and make his viewpoint in an intelligent manner but he just behaved like a fanatic, hothead with no control over his emotions.

The only bit were we got really scared was when he threatened us with his LAWYER !!! he goes "my lawyers coming, he's a bit late" then this bloke with a long black coat walked it and remained silent for the rest of the process,

We spoek to some of his students, who some tried to intimidate by staring at us for a long period which failed to work, one threw out three insults about the website and I said where is the argument and reasoning that you guys are always going on about. in a way i felt sorry for his students, they were clearly hurt and unaware of why they were being treated in this way, it is Nidars foolish behaviour that is to blame - they tried to explain its just abotu the martial art, but i said then why all the hurtful stuff on your website.

In a way Nidar got himself kicked out when he said he wanted to take the legal route and take the Gurdwara to court, so everyone goes go ahead, could take a while, plus the committee have no obligation to offer the Gurdwara for classes to anyone, and have the right to refuse.

The police turned up because Nidar foolishly threatened the Gurdwara with violence, at a meeting HE had set up himself with the police. saying he had students in Canada, America, Europe and he couldn't control them all and they wanted to smash the place up and get violent.

We talked to the police and explained we are here in peace hence only 3 of us, he is the one who has turned up with 20 students and weapons trying to bully the Gurdwara and acting like a hot head.

the most telling thing was that The Gurdwara had the decency to say that we are not banning anyone from worshipign at the gurdwara, anyone can come and worship but no shastarvidiya classes or controversial discourses allowed. Nidar was claiming his snatan beliefs were being discriminated against and he wasn't being allowed to worship. One of the Gurdwara members reminded him that whenever they turn up for class they never matha tek to Guru Granth Sahib ji in the Darbar anyway, they just walk past and when questioned about it they have said that we matha tek to the shaster so we don't need to matha tek to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I was shocked! I mean We matha tek to Shaster too, but we don't forget Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru

afterwards the police asked both parties to leave and we did so peacefully and then Nidar was asked to leave from the Gurdwara given full freedom to take his LEGAL action.

so we said it to his face, and what? other Singh when leaving even called him a "TAKRA MOORAKH" to his face, for defying the Gurdwara and showing such disregard for the Gurdwara, what wisdom will he teach his students.

as one of the Gurdwara members was on his way home that night he saw Nidar and all his students at KFC in Wolverhampton

i felt sorry for the "Last Sikh Lawyer" who was standing around that night lookign pretty bewildered and confused as to what he was actually doing there......

Thats correct i am not a fan of either side to be honest both sides come across petty and childish with neither side really willing to talk, from your obvious unbiased comments we can see you are clearly in the right, however im guessing there are 2 sides to every story.

one side niddar it seems to me try and intimidate and threaten with their physical presence the oher side seem to want to prove some sort of intellectual superiority with neither having the courage to sit down and explain this is how we feel, what can we do about this.....rarely in this world is stuff as black and white as you try to make out "hehehehe"

[taran0]

you can try and lump us both into the same category, but our side doesnt think that singhs should be going to Student Unions and downing pints and ignoring Guru Granth Sahib Ji

thinking they are an arm of the Hindu dharma and misinterpreting Guru Gobind Singh ji;s words making him out to be a devi worshiper when he said himself clearly he bows to noone but Akaal Purkh's name. (that last one is the most offensive)

the biggest threat to Sikhi is inaction or apathy, saying don't say anything - "people might think I'm a fanatic" just be cool with everything, don't say anything or make a stand....... that would be seen as bad, or "i'm scared" im not going to get involved.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" [Edmund Burke]

Did Sant Jarnail Singh ji just stand by and let people trounce over sikhi saying whatever they want, NIdar claims to be a Nihang yet the Nihangs clearly do not agree with him, they pulled guns on him at Hazur Sahib, they even wrote a letter saying he is not a budha dal nihang and he is clearly using dirty tactics. He even got one of his students to ring up a friend of mines place of work saying he wasn't properly qualified and involved in gangs, he is a teacher.

we have done nothing dirty like that !

at least we fight clean, we have been open online, shared what we have found, educated our peers made sure the Gurdwaras realise what he stands for and what he teaches to his students, because contrary to popular belief its not just a martial art , it's a whole persona and ideology that you are a kashatriya and normal rules don't apply to you, you can do anything you want as a kashatriya as you live in a war situation, alcohol, women, drugs all fine.(he said this in front of one of the sevadars at Guru Tegh Bahadur Gurdwara, Wolverhampton)

what war does nidar and his students live in?

who is their enemy? seems to be anyone that does their nitnem and from their website taksal and AKJ
Why does he try to undermine mainstream Sikhs at every opportunity, yet he loves nirankaris and namdharis?
why is he so illusive we have asked him to sit with us in a video interview ?
why do the Nihangs in india hate him?
if we were freely openly doing our parchaar, then why did he call the CTU on me?

why has ne not answered the articles on our website where he says Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa with Ardas to Chandi when Bachittar Natak clearly states that Guru Gobind Singh ji was summoned from Hemkunt by Akaal Purkh and told to start a teesar panth.

if you cannot understand this then you can carry on with your indifference and "lets everyone sit together in la la land and be snug and cosy with the teletubies"

I was willing to talk to Nidar and one of his students was arranging it yet he made some conditions that certain books must be read and it can't be filmed, I said what's the point of private I want the world to know because many people have proven him wrong in private but no one ever gets to know about it.

We are ready to sit down with them and talk on video so I await Nidar's reply.

as for him teaching in Gurdwara we will carry on distributing HIS WEBSITE AND VIEWS to parents who can decide for themselves whether they want there kids to attend.

It's easy to say we are warriors and kashatriya living in the UK in your central heated houses and hot water and KFC buckets, i would say to any of Nidar's students go and stay with the Nihangs in India for a few months and see what their real life is about.

The Current budha Dal Jathedar himself refutes Nidar's views , http://www.shastervidiya.org/meeting-with-a-true-nihang-2/

where was Nidar, why didn't he visit the jathedar when he visited England? if he's a nihang shouldn't he visit the shanveh krori jathedar

we asked Jathedar what we should do about Nidar and he said "do the parchaar about the Truth and the falsehood would be smashed, no one will even remember his name"

and taking Sat Bachan from Mahapursh who wakes at 12 am every morning and has no desire or laalach that we could see, we will continue our campaign to raise awareness about the fraud that is "Surjit Singh Bains."

Gur bar Akaal