Going to Sants

[Only five]

Sarcasm at its finest, i hope people catch the point of this thread. Waheguru

I guess I should have been more subtle with the original post. What I was really hoping for was Dhunda supporters to come out of the shadows and really tell rest of the sangat why they praise and glorify him so much. Maybe I should have put this thread up in the gupt section and we would have got Dhunda supporters to reply. Chalo one Dhunda supporter that liked my post is good enough.

Whether you’re a Dhunda supporter or Hari Singh Randhawa supporter or support someone else or a combination of preachers. One thing we all need to recognize is that we are brothers and sisters who are stuck on the same problems and need help from one and only Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. I know we all can agree here.

Dhunda Sahib goes on and on about how everyone should follow Satguru, listen to Satguru, and read Gurbani. I know the Dhunda supporters mostly likely watched Dhunda Sahib’s video I posted in the thread starting post with complete attention. Many of you most likely bragged about how the whole Gurdwara was packed to listen to Dhunda do katha. You like him a lot and I understand that. However here are couple of questions I have for the Dhunda supporters. No Dhunda supporter needs to come on Sikh sangat and answer these questions, but do ask these question deep down where you don’t hear Dhunda’s voice or anyone else’s voice deep down in yourself. Dhunda on many occasions tells the sangat in his katha that Sants and Babas are breaking sangat away from Satguru. However how many people in the sangat were actually there to have Maharaj’s darshan and listen to Gurbani in the video I posted? Be honest when you answer this question deep inside. Again I’ll repeat Dhunda tells the sangat many times listen to Satguru and read Gurbani. It’s very simple the sangat was there only listen to Dhunda and could care less Maharaj is sitting on his Takht. If you don’t believe me then go to the same Gurdwara on Friday when Dhunda is not there and see how much sangat is there. If Dhunda really wants the sangat to listen to Gurbani and understand it, then why doesn’t he have a Pothi of Gurbani in front him and he can be just reciting Gurbani to the whole sangat for the hour and half? Why does he even speak his own words when on Gurdwara stages? If he is doing Katha, then why doesn’t he do katha with a Pothi Sahib where Satguru is speaking and he translates the difficult Gurmukhi words into Punjabi? If he really wants sangat to listen to Satguru then he would ask the sangat, why do you only pack the Gurdwara Sahib when I come to your Gurdwara? Why don’t you come to listen to Akhand Paaths that happen every weekend at the Gurdwara? Instead Dhunda Sahib takes tuks of Gurbani and then wraps these tuks with his own words and makes the sangat listen to what he wants to say. The tuk is only being told because the tuk of Gurbani provides evidence to what he says and is not being said because the tuk of Gurbani explains what Shabad Guru is actually saying to you. He’s breaking Gurbani (doing beadbi) in front of you and you sit there with a big smile on your face as a father see’s his son bring a fat pay cheque home for the first time.

Just last week I was at an Akhand Paath and guess when the sangat came to pack the Gurdwara? It was on the last day when the Bhog had happened and when there was three angs left to be read. The first two days the Darbar hall was practically empty. Is the sangat really there to listen to Gurbani? You must be on planet Mars to think they are there to listen to Satguru. The Gurdwaras get packed because Dhunda is going to do “katha” not of Gurbani, but what he thinks Sikhi ought to be. No one has to tell us (Sikhs) what Sikhi ought to be because Satguru has already explained Sikhi through Gurbani, Rehat, Sikh history, and Hukamnama. In essence Dhunda is the biggest hyprocrite today, in the Khalsa Panth.

Dhunda Sahib is breaking sangat away from Satguru himself and then attaching the sangat to what he believes Sikhi is. Dhunda Sahib believes Jaap Sahib is not Guru Sahib’s Bani, Vaheguru simran or any other simran is useless (Dhan Dhan Dhan Bhagat Prahlaad Maharaj ji who slaps Dhunda in the face by doing Raam simran and Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj comes to protect Bhagat ji), he believes that Dasam Bani is not Guru Sahib Bani, and the list goes on.

Such is the reality of Dhunda and many brothers and sisters have fallen victim to his games. You can laugh at all the fake Babas and their followers all you want, but you are no different than them. The baba followers physically wash the babas feet and you wash fake Baba Dhunda Sahib’s feet by letting the Gurdwara committee give your hard earned money in the form of gold medals. Do your research by listening to Dhunda Sahibs kathas and interviews. Any time this fake Baba Dhunda is asked a question he gives answers that contradict each other. This fake baba can’t even give a straight answer for questions that have straight answers, but you want him to attach you to Sikhi. Have you not learned anything over the past decade you have been targeting Babas? Babas make their own deras and break sangat, but Dhunda Sahib is sitting in your Guru's presence and breaking you away from your Guru. Both are thieves Babas and Dhunda, but who is a bigger theif here?

It’s time to wake up and ask the difficult questions to the atma that no one wants to ask. If you truly want to practice Sikhi and accept seva from Maharaj, then you can’t hide in the shadows from these questions.

[Singh559]

One thing we need to realize is the youth have power and if we stick together missionary uncles won't be able to stand forever.

I realized that if you're right and know the subject (in this case Dhunda's shady character) you can sit on a one on one with a dhunda supporter (even if he's a pardhan of a Gurdwara that called Dhunda) and tell him the truth and he will just sit there and listen.

I had a similar thing happen to me recently and the uncle was more surprised than anything and I could tell he was a bit bitter about the whole thing and he kind of nodded his head in semi agreement because he had nothing to say back, but I know he still hasn't changed his mind. Paranoia and brainwashing is called just that because they are beyond logic and reason.

When there is a gridlock the youth need to ensure all organizations are on the same page and don't cater to or allow such manmat to be spread into the panth.

As many people already know Sikhri already has missionary leanings and it's confirmed with the image below. I know Jakara here in California is down with SikhRI - perhaps youth need to get together and confront any organization that caters to people like Sikhri. I have nothing against Harinder Singh as he is well versed in the political framework of the world, but in terms of spirituality and the shady ideology that has been discussed in the past I don't think he should be entertained.

[simran345]

I not met a sant either. I know we should respect the mahapursh, but even when i seen ppl who call them sants, didnt really feel much. Just like normal people. If there was so much they are praised for they can do, then how come they cannot get rid of my dukh? Then comes the issue of not asking for worldly things.

If Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is there to guide us, what do they do exactly, and why they get so much special treatment? This is wat i dont understand. Why will they only go to those peoples houses they prefer to? Mostly with money ones. Why dont they sit on normal sofa or floor like everybody else when they just been doing it ten mins ago in the car or where they came from? Why dont they stop it and say no i will be same as you and sit with you?

They are not god, and the real sants will never show they are different, or say they want to be treated that way. Even if they do meet people, why are people always scared of them as to what they say, and would not be from the granthi and not care how they talk in sangat, but its a big deal in front of them.

I have heard Babaji Nand Singh ji, never let women in front of them without a man present being either her father brother husband or somebody she would know. So how come now women do all this cheow meooww drama nowadays, and fill their egos? Dont people learn from the past?

Worldly tours are good i think as they are teaching people and guiding them right way, i love how kirtani jathe or knowledgeable person comes from India to uk, to do that. I learn more this way, but i dont like the over special treatment that is applied, and worship kind of mentality that is given. Ok respect i agree but our Gurus taught us too everybody is equal, and to me i would include sants and mahapursh too. Respect yes, but worship no.

[VanHelsingh]

Please tell me that's not true!

Sadly it is. This was many years ago. From what I know the family in question still feel obliged to hold an Akhand Paat each year lest their little bundle of joy gets run over by a car or something horrible like that. That still doesn't stop them holding a birthday party for the little sprog where the sharaab flows like tap water and maas is consumed like cavemen use to. What a strange way of thanking Waheguru for giving them a child.

[Sherdil]

Guru Sahib sheds some light on the subject.

Guru Nanak dev ji, Raag Saarang, Pannaa 1245, Salok, First Mehla:

gur peer sadhaaeae ma(n)gan jaae ||

One who calls himself a guru or a spiritual teacher, while he goes around begging

thaa kai mool n lageeai paae ||

- don't ever touch his feet.

ghaal khaae kishh hathhahu dhaee ||

One who works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has

naanak raahu pashhaanehi saee ||1||

- O Nanak, he knows the Path. ||1||

[Mat Pulo Rai]

Sant, Gurmukh, Sadhu, Brumhgiani, are the names Vaheguru gives to his

beloved children who follow Baghti Mahrag learnt from fellow Sants to pass through Bav Sagar to Sach Khand/Nigjh Kar

sa(n)th sehaaee raam kae kar kirapaa dheeaa milaae ||

The Saints, the Lord's helpers, in their mercy, have united me with Him.

This path originated from Sat Guru who opened the gates to Naam.

bin sathigur ko naao n paaeae prabh aisee banath banaaeehae ||9||

Without the True Guru, no one finds the Name. Such is the making which God has made. ||9||

sathigur thae paaeae veechaaraa ||

From the True Guru, contemplative meditation is obtained.

su(n)n samaadhh sachae ghar baaraa ||

And then, one dwells with the True Lord in His celestial home, the Primal State of Absorption in Deepest Samaadhi.

People should not take this lightly this the decree of Vaheguru himself, that no one can obtain Naam unless through Sat Guru, there are implications to this, manly no Sant, Sandhu Gurmukh are able to give Naam, it is not within their ability to do so, though they can take you direct to Sat Guru, only if the thirst within that Beloved Sikh is at this state

kabeer birahu bhuya(n)gam man basai ma(n)th n maanai koe ||

Kabeer, the snake of separation from the Lord abides within my mind; it does not respond to any mantra.

raam biougee naa jeeai jeeai th bouraa hoe ||76||

One who is separated from the Lord does not live; if he does live, he goes insane. ||76||

har milanai no man lochadhaa karam milaavanehaar ||

My mind yearns to meet the Lord. If only He would show His Mercy, and unite me with

Himself!

Those within this state of deep separation where sleep, food is forgotten, Sants within their mercy can unite those with Sat Guru

sa(n)th sehaaee raam kae kar kirapaa dheeaa milaae ||
The Saints, the Lord's helpers, in their mercy, have united me with Him.

sa(n)th sehaaee praem kae ho thin kai laagaa paae ||

The Saints are the helpers of the Lord's lovers; I fall and touch their feet.

Over time people have become very sceptical/cynical of the term Saints, so they should, this is what is within Guru Bani about Fake Sant/Saadhs

Sant Anardi kich Na Bujia Kathni Karia Maya Nall Lugi

Fake Sants will not be able to decvifer the truth, and will fixate on wealth

We have been told that there will be imposters who see the congregation as a quick and easy mode of income,

bahuthae bhaekh karai bhaekhadhhaaree ||

The disguisers put on their various disguises.

a(n)thar thisanaa firai aha(n)kaaree ||

Desire rages within them, and they carry on egotistically.

aap n cheenai baajee haaree ||6||

They do not understand themselves, and they lose the game of life. ||6||

kaaparr pehir karae chathuraaee ||

Putting on religious robes, they act so clever,

maaeiaa mohi ath bharam bhulaaee ||

but they are totally deluded by doubt and emotional attachment to Maya.

But cynicism should lead to inquire not closed a mind; we nor learn or reveal but through inquiry.

Bani talks of the domain of Sargun which is out of our understanding; we can then say we only have the tools, which are revealed by Guru Granth Shaib Jee, in which

-What Sants mean to Sat Guru and what they say about their beloved Sants

- What their Role is

-Also how we tell the difference between Fake and Real

Guru Guru Arjan Dev Jee on Saints

Gauree, Fifth Mehla:

sa(n)th kee dhhoor mittae agh kott ||

Millions of sins are wiped away by the dust of the feet of the Saints.

sa(n)th prasaadh janam maran thae shhott ||1||

By the Grace of the Saints, one is released from birth and death. ||1||

sa(n)th kaa dharas pooran eisanaan ||

The Blessed Vision of the Saints is the perfect cleansing bath.

sa(n)th kirapaa thae japeeai naam ||1|| rehaao ||

By the Grace of the Saints, one comes to chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

sa(n)th kai sa(n)g mittiaa aha(n)kaar ||

In the Society of the Saints, egotism is shed,

ho balihaaree saajanaa meethaa avareethaa ||2||

I am a sacrifice to my pure friends, the immaculate Saints. ||2||

This is the importance of Sat Sangat, millions of sins are wiped in the sangat of Saints.

-What is the roll of Sant

sa(n)th kee saevaa naam dhhiaaeeai ||

Serving the Saint, one meditates on the Naam.

In the congregation we learn how to meditate on Vaheguru which is the only freedom from Maya and liberation. It is important to know the technique to meditating

dhhun mehi dhhiaan dhhiaan mehi jaaniaa guramukh akathh kehaanee ||3||

Through concentration on the sound (gurmantar) knowledge is attained, Gurmukhs have explained this through the teachings of Akathh.

How we tell the difference between Fake Sants

Guru sahib states who takes the title sant and does Akaath Katha should be at this avasta and be able;

1. Tell the story of God and lead you through bav sagar to Sachkhand

giaan dhhiaan dhhun jaaneeai akathh kehaavai soe

One with Knowledge, supreme stillness of mind void of maya (thoughts) and able to hear Naam is able to give knowledge of Akathh (God)

thath thael naam keeaa baathee dheepak dhaeh oujyaaraa ||
With the oil of knowledge about the essence of reality, and the wick of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, this lamp illluminates my body.

To add to this sant has the permission of God to tell the story of Nirgun and Sargun, and been instructed

what avasta he has achieved, must passed to Gur Sangat, through practical meditation

Sant will practically show you the path, take you to Naam if they wish, if you have the thirst mentioned in the shabad above,

very few will, they then work to instil that love we have lost due to our attachment with maya

maadhhavae kiaa keheeai bhram aisaa ||

O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion?

jaisaa maaneeai hoe n thaisaa ||1|| rehaao ||

Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause||

Audio of this shabad being sung Bhai Balbir Singh.

Insight on Akath Katha

If asked what the Mind is could we say we know, where Sachkhand is, where

Chitar Gupt place is, what Vaheguru looks like, where the Mind stays? its in this state of

blindness the Sants start Akath from our Mool (origin)

eaehu sareer sabh mool hai maaeiaa ||

This bodys origins/source is Maya;

dhoojai bhaae bharam bhulaaeiaa ||

in love with duality, it is deluded by doubt.

Then explaining what the relationship between the Mind, Punj Choor, to Kaal, chitar Gupt, Daram Raja, Dhoots, Atma are. We are then taught how to win this Game of love, the game in we were sent to play

kaam krodhh lobh mohu jeethahu aisee khael har piaaree ||2||

Conquer sexual desire, anger, greed and worldly attachment; only such a game

as this is dear to the Lord. ||2||

If we play Guru Jee says;

jan naanak guramukh jo nar khaelai so jin baajee ghar aaeiaa ||4||1||19||

O servant Nanak, that person who plays this game as Gurmukh, wins the game of life, and returns to his true home. ||4||1||19||

These are some of the basics of what Sat Guru has left us in a vast Knowledge library within Gurbani,

we learn that without having someone who has himself seen spoken to Vaheguru it is impossible to defeat

Punj Choor or even start to understand what the Unseen world consist of this is the importance of Mahapurkhs.

[simran345]

How would somebody like me with little knowledge be able to recognise a real Sant?

I thought it was simple but seem to be getting confused. So this is wat i have decided to do.

Not to worry about who is real and who is fake, as to somebody else they maybe real and to others maybe fake.

Its so hard to tell the difference that i give up trying to distinguish and just stick to listening to kirtan n paat.

And leave the rest to god, to lead me in the path of right people.

And not listen to too many stories, and to keep my mouth shut is best thing i think.

Sorryji if i said anything wrong regarding Sants/Mahapurshs, but it only meant for the fake ones, as it isis hard for western country born to recognise.

[VanHelsingh]

How would somebody like me with little knowledge be able to recognise a real Sant? I thought it was simple but seem to be getting confused. So this is wat i have decided to do. Not to worry about who is real and who is fake, as to somebody else they maybe real and to others maybe fake. Its so hard to tell the difference that i give up trying to distinguish and just stick to listening to kirtan n paat. And leave the rest to god, to lead me in the path of right people. And not listen to too many stories, and to keep my mouth shut is best thing i think. Sorryji if i said anything wrong regarding Sants/Mahapurshs, but it only meant for the fake ones, as it isis hard for western country born to recognise.

Look at the company (or the type of sevadaars he has around him) the sant / mahapurash keeps. That's usually a good indication of what's going on.

Also, at the risk of sounding all Jedi, search your feelings. What does your hirda tell you? If you feel uneasy is it because this individual will help you and attempt to put you straight (and thus your unconscious mind is rebelling against this change even though it is ultimately positive in the long-run), or is this fella going to take you for a ride and your insides are telling you to run a mile?

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

In GURU GRANTH SAHIB kabir sahib and ravidass sahib's baani is called as BHAGAT BAANI.

WHY THEY ARE NOT CALLED SANTS?

[Only five]

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ॥

बिलावलु ॥

Bilāval.

Bilaaval:

ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਕੋਰੀ ਗਾਗਰਿ ਆਨੈ ਲੀਪਤ ਜੀਉ ਗਇਓ ॥

नित उठि कोरी गागरि आनै लीपत जीउ गइओ ॥

Niṯ uṯẖ korī gāgar ānai līpaṯ jī▫o ga▫i▫o.

Every day, he rises early, and brings a fresh clay pot; he passes his life embellishing and glazing it.

ਤਾਨਾ ਬਾਨਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਿ ਲਪਟਿਓ ॥੧॥

ताना बाना कछू न सूझै हरि हरि रसि लपटिओ ॥१॥

Ŧānā bānā kacẖẖū na sūjẖai har har ras lapti▫o. ||1||

He does not think at all of worldly weaving; he is absorbed in the subtle essence of the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||

ਹਮਾਰੇ ਕੁਲ ਕਉਨੇ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਿਓ ॥

हमारे कुल कउने रामु कहिओ ॥

Hamāre kul ka▫une rām kahi▫o.

Who in our family has ever chanted the Name of the Lord?

ਜਬ ਕੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਲਈ ਨਿਪੂਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਭਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जब की माला लई निपूते तब ते सुखु न भइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jab kī mālā la▫ī nipūṯe ṯab ṯe sukẖ na bẖa▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Ever since this worthless son of mine began chanting with his mala, we have had no peace at all! ||1||Pause||

ਸੁਨਹੁ ਜਿਠਾਨੀ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਦਿਰਾਨੀ ਅਚਰਜੁ ਏਕੁ ਭਇਓ ॥

सुनहु जिठानी सुनहु दिरानी अचरजु एकु भइओ ॥

Sunhu jiṯẖānī sunhu ḏirānī acẖraj ek bẖa▫i▫o.

Listen, O my sisters-in-law, a wondrous thing has happened!

ਸਾਤ ਸੂਤ ਇਨਿ ਮੁਡੀਂਏ ਖੋਏ ਇਹੁ ਮੁਡੀਆ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਮੁਇਓ ॥੨॥

सात सूत इनि मुडींए खोए इहु मुडीआ किउ न मुइओ ॥२॥

Sāṯ sūṯ in mudīʼne kẖo▫e ih mudī▫ā ki▫o na mu▫i▫o. ||2||

This boy has ruined our weaving business. Why didn't he simply die? ||2||

ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖਾ ਕਾ ਏਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਇਓ ॥

सरब सुखा का एकु हरि सुआमी सो गुरि नामु दइओ ॥

Sarab sukẖā kā ek har su▫āmī so gur nām da▫i▫o.

O mother, the One Lord, the Lord and Master, is the source of all peace. The Guru has blessed me with His Name.

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਕੀ ਪੈਜ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਾਖੀ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਰਿਓ ॥੩॥

संत प्रहलाद की पैज जिनि राखी हरनाखसु नख बिदरिओ ॥३॥

Sanṯ parahlāḏ kī paij jin rākẖī harnākẖas nakẖ biḏri▫o. ||3||

He preserved the honor of Prahlaad, and destroyed Harnaakhash with his nails. ||3||

ਘਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰ ਕੀ ਛੋਡੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਲਇਓ ॥

घर के देव पितर की छोडी गुर को सबदु लइओ ॥

Gẖar ke ḏev piṯar kī cẖẖodī gur ko sabaḏ la▫i▫o.

I have renounced the gods and ancestors of my house, for the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਪ ਖੰਡਨੁ ਸੰਤਹ ਲੈ ਉਧਰਿਓ ॥੪॥੪॥

कहत कबीरु सगल पाप खंडनु संतह लै उधरिओ ॥४॥४॥

Kahaṯ Kabīr sagal pāp kẖandan sanṯėh lai uḏẖāri▫o. ||4||4||

Says Kabeer, God is the Destroyer of all sins; He is the Saving Grace of His Saints. ||4||4||