Jhatka - The Sikh Method Of Slaughter Vs Halal/kosher...

[humgareeb]

Then the maryada should be changed to say jhatka is allowed, because at the moment it only says kuttha, which is defined as killing in SGGS which the jot of 10 gurus.

Plus other quotes I have shown you also lead one to believe that one shouldn't kill for pleasure of your rasna.. Unless u think SGGS is different from guru Gobind Singh?

Can you show me where guru sahib has said what the 4 bujjer kurehits are? Can you show me where guru sahib has given order to keep panj kakkar rehit? The Khalsa rehit does not just come from SGGS, it comes from a combination of SGGS, Dasam, sarb loh and puratan rehitnamas uttered by the mouth of Guru Gobind Singh Ji themselves. Many other historical Granths also talk about jhatka maryada, in the past I have posted pangtia from SGGS ji and other sources in support of jhatka but will no longer do this as it is obvious people will still stick to thier pre-conceived notions of what is right and what is wrong, there's nothing wrong with that as long as you have enough gyan to accept the opposite side of the argument as well and realise it's all down to personal preference and suitability. The recent topic on animal slaughter was a good balanced debate. For those who wish to do serious khoj then there is plenty of material available from both sides, all you have to do is research for yourself.

Fateh

[Mahakaal96]

Then the maryada should be changed to say jhatka is allowed, because at the moment it only says kuttha, which is defined as killing in SGGS which the jot of 10 gurus.

Plus other quotes I have shown you also lead one to believe that one shouldn't kill.. Unless u think SGGS is different from guru Gobind Singh?Then the maryada should be changed to say jhatka is allowed, because at the moment it only says kuttha, which is defined as killing in SGGS which the jot of 10 gurus.

Plus other quotes I have shown you also lead one to believe that one shouldn't kill for pleasure of your rasna.. Unless u think SGGS is different from guru Gobind Singh?

It's all down to interpretation, some say kuttha refers to halal, Giani ji says this in his katha and he is a vegetarian taksali kathavachak but because he has genuine gyan and knowledge from SGGS, Dasam, rehitnamas etc he is able to say jhatka is a Nihang Singh Khalsa maryada.

Thank you for you list of quotes from SGGS sahib but you forgot this one it seems, please read the whole shabad.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥

First Mehl:

ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੰਦਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥

O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੋਏ ਜੀਇ ਲਇਆ ਵਾਸੇਰਾ ॥

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

ਅਭਖੁ ਭਖਹਿ ਭਖੁ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨ ਕੇਰਾ ॥

They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬੀ�| ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

ਜਜਿ ਕਾਜਿ ਵੀਆਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੈ ਓਥੈ ਮਾਸੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਪਜਹਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾਂ ॥

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

ਜੇ ਓਇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਨ ਲੈਣਾ ॥

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

ਦੇਂਦਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਲੈਦੇ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ॥

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਖਰਾ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥

Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

[scali]

Since most of us will be taking animal joons (reincarnating) we can think of this topic standing in a confined stall for butchering. Is it better to die in the hands of some <banned word filter activated> whose didn't bother asking me about any of this jhatka/halal crap.

[satbachan96]

Humgreeb,

i see this thread is going in the same direction as the previous animal sacrifice thread....you might aswell read that as it seems like deja vu reading this thread....

Taksal reads and teach 9 or so granths before even starting on guru granth sahib ji when learning/teaching vidiya, for those who know better please correct me, also from my learning nirmalas spend at least 10-12 years learning/practicing vidiya in ashrams before their mahant even let them sit on stage to do katha...thats the standard again please correct me if im wrong this is from whai have read/heard..theres no point reading the whole guru granth sahib in english in two weeks then claiming to be a vidwaan....yes its beneficial on a personal level but not enough to start a discussion with refferences to gurbani..

From my understanding there are 3 types of shaheed, 1, being shant shaheed such as guru arjun dev ji maharaj, 2, jeeven mukht shaheed,3 soorbir shaheed that go on the battlefield...all are sipahi and show no fear of death..the practice/diet /overall way of living will be different for a shant ras person to a warrior...shant ras is willing to give life and the warrior takes life aswell as putting his life on the line..in the eyes of akaal purkh theres no better, one is not higher than the other....

we all are on different avasthas who knows how many life times we have come and gone, its unlikely that our avasthas in the majority is the same,..

we all have to be honest with our current avastha, which can always be improved with gurprasad...if by a miracle you got dharshan of guru ji/or shaheeds and they said jhatka is fine would you honestly be able to do it..personally i would not but 1, i am being honest with myself and 2, i have no problem with those that do it..

Last thing veer, i spoke to a hazoori singh once and asked the same question myself and he was shant ras white bana gursikh..his quick answer was its for the nihangs not civilians but he also said if you want to discuss this then we need atleast 10 hours..think about that veereh...

[WaljinderSingh]

A big face palm.pff.. Another Jhatka/halal debate thread....

[chatanga]

An interesting reply I came across in regards to this issue:

interesting to see that Sikhs are still plucking out sentences from SGGS and try to make others think they are related to being veg or non-veg.

HamGareeb Jee has hit the nail on the head.

no he hasn't. he thinks he has but he hasn't. He has just misquoted and/or misunderstood Gurbani.

[Mahakaal96]

I would advise non amritdhari sikhs who eat meat to avoid halal at all costs, get your meat from jhatka butchers or from non halal source. Reason being halal as a process is very demonic. Although in jhatka the life of a living being is being taken compassion is shown where by the animal is killed swiftly with one vaar to minimise pain and awareness of impending death as a opposed to halal where the animal is literally made to suffer to death.

[Singhstah]

can someone please tell me what the last atrocity or crime the nihangs stopped is? im sure they must be stopping lots of evil doers considering how many goats they kill for practicing their awe-inspiring warrior skills.

[Singhstah]

I would advise non amritdhari sikhs who eat meat to avoid halal at all costs, get your meat from jhatka butchers or from non halal source. Reason being halal as a process is very demonic. Although in jhatka the life of a living being is being taken compassion is shown where by the animal is killed swiftly with one vaar to minimise pain and awareness of impending death as a opposed to halal where the animal is literally made to suffer to death.

I take it you concede then that some pain is given to an animal even whet jhatka is performed, albeit ''minimised'. Can you please tell me where Gurbani, our Guru has given a Sikh permission to give an innocent being pain?

[Mahakaal96]

I take it you concede then that some pain is given to an animal even whet jhatka is performed, albeit ''minimised'. Can you please tell me where Gurbani, our Guru has given a Sikh permission to give an innocent being pain?

Whether it 'minimises' pain or eliminates pain all together only the animal can know, but jhatka as a method is done to minimise/eliminate pain, hope that makes it more clear & precise for you.

Like I said earlier the khalsa's maryada comes from SGGS, Dasam, sarb loh and rehitnamas. If all maryada comes from SGGS then where does it say about keeping 5 kakkar rehit? Or keeping keski rehit or sarb loh bibek? That is a ploy used by missionary mindset types to undermine puratan traditions of the Khalsa.