Takht No To ‘Patit’ Sikhs In Gurdwara Panels Abroad

[WaljinderSingh]

Fair decision but don't agree with how its presented they need to add more and clarify further. They had a ample opportunity to reiterate gursikhi both outer and internal rehit principles ( sat, santokh, dya, dharam, gyan, advait) address gurdwara committee/ management issues and replace committee structure with panj pyares.

The way rule of sabat sorat sikhs is presented in hakumnama, its coming across as - merit of being in gurdwara committee is automatically given to someone who has sabat surat only. Not only its (this automatic merit given to sabut surat/keshadhari sikh) is dangerous slipperly slope but also very short sighted not compatible with broader gursikhi teaching at all.

It's actually not that hard to be keshadhari at all, this partial hakumnama inadvertently give more chances for criminal type of people and sheerly affected by panj chors simply grow kesh and be keshadharis to be in gurdwara committee- exploit the loophole in order to be in power and control the masses.

This rule (only requirement to be in the gurdwara committe is keshadhari) cannot even stand on its own feet, its just a matter of time someone brings up - demonic rakshash dusht kps gill, nang demonic rakshash dusht phoola, demonic rakshash dusht beant, dogra's, reyat, keshadharis abroad with criminal record backgrounds in gurdwara committee, sarna, badal, rss (Rashtriya Sikh Sangh), some of bedi clans with twisted beliefs are all sabat sorat/keshadharis? whats their point?

What a mess.!!

Must have Singh after their name, must be keshadhari and Amritdhari

[chatanga]

Then find Amritdharis that are not vile people to run the Gurdwara. Obviously you don't say I'll pick the better of the two who are both disobeying Guru Sahib.

Correct, if you started looking at those who obey the Guru completely you may just get enough Sikhs to make a committee in the whole of 1 city.

Its not just about finding amritdharis that are good, there are a lot who are very good, but to find amritdharis who are able to fulfill the demanding requiremnents of management. Believe me, it is not easy. Being a good Sikh doesnt automatically make you a good committee member, and I know of many exemples of good practicing Sikhs who once they have been on the committee has shown themselves to be naive and un-prepared for the harsh duties of dealing with joe public.]

Well some like you will do this when it comes to Sikhi.

jaspreet, dont assume and dont get personal. Being a realist is not the same as what you are making out. You can only work with the tools you have. Learn that and grow up.

That's'ts what I call hitting the nail on the head.

he hasnt hit anything on the head, he hasnt solved anything,

[N30S1NGH]

Must have Singh after their name, must be keshadhari and Amritdhari

It's good they mentioned amrtidharis. However, it be lot wiser if they can come abroad - see actual reality - see gurdwara committee members (keshadharis and amritdhari) scandals, many misconducts- abuse of powers and add more provisioning such as criminal record, credit record checks to make this more strict and close many loopholes.

[chatanga]

. But when it comes to surgery that may result in death. You will tell both of these bad surgeons to get lost and you will run to find the best surgeon to conduct the surgery. You value your life more and some value Sikhi more.

I like your analogy, as it is in some part true, but lets add to it a little.

Lets say there is a patient requiring surgery, and in walks Jaspreet11, he is smartly dressed, wearing a white doctors coat, stethoscope around his neck, and ID badge around his neck with the label DR Jaspreeet11, and pens in his top pocket.

Then in shuffles chatanga, who is scruffy, has no coat, no stethoscope, no id, and no id that he is a doctor.

Who is the patient going to naturally assume is the doctor? the one who looks like a doctor, or the one who doesnt?

Give the patient a choice, its either Dr Jaspreet 11, or its chatanga, who would you like to perform this surgery?

What do you think the patient will say?

Of course he is going to go with the one who looks the part, but he doesnt know whether this guy is any good, other than he looks like he knows what he is doing.

That is what we have started to do, think that just because someone is amritdhari/kesadhari, then automatically they fit the criteria. But it is not an accurate assesment of whether one is able to perform the task.

I will say again, as I have worked very closely with gurdwara committee for about 10 years now, that having a amritdhari person, does not automatically mean the gurdwara will be better run.

[luckysingh99]

I have one question.. when it comes to follow the principles of sikhi like keeping hair and wearing turban etc etc...why do people start judging the character of amritdharis as bad and monas as good...

I do wonder because when we already know every community is a combination of both nice and bad people then why we point out bad amritdhari people??

Pardon my ignorance, but exactly where did i say slate anybody ???

So, why be questioning me on the assumption that I am only pointing at bad amritdharies and the few good monas, and making it seem that is the global picture ???

The FACT is that most amritdharies don't give monas the benefit of doubt. They immediately assume they are not good enough. ........This is one of the messages of my above post.

Anyway, my question was .

.What is a patit ??

does anyone actually understant what the term is for ?

It seems, most of us think that ALL monas are patits !!!

[garch]

I will alway obey the akal takhts sundesh. Whether right or wrong.

As it happens I agree with the decision on amritdhari committees only, along with character references n criminal/credit checks.

On a slight tangent; how Is telling a disabled person they have to sit outside the diwan hall as them sitting on a platform (because of their disability) is offensive. I admit people abuse the platforms but why not target them with the sundesh. Can gurbani/gurus hukams support this hukam? A brick wall has just been placed between a disabled person and their guru.

I just feel that sometimes singh sahibs are too rash in with some of their rulings.

Y not do something useful and reiterate amritdhari bibia not allowed to have laser hair removal and singhs not allowed to swear or sit in the gurdwara communal areas slagging off the opposition!

[JSinghnz]

The main point which is very clear here is that the committee members of Gurudwaras have to be Amritdhari/ Saboot Surut Sikhs.

Some members here are just trying to confuse this very simple issue.

The Akal Takht has also addressed the very iimportant where Sikhs are not using Singh as their last name and only using theit tail name

to identiify their tribes and showing their support for the hindu caste system. If they donot use Singh as their last name, they have no right to be in the management of the Gurdwaras.

This is a great step by Akal Takht Sahib to deal with tribalism/casteism in Gurdwaras and should be given wide support by Sikh Sangat world over.

[jaspreet1]

Correct, if you started looking at those who obey the Guru completely you may just get enough Sikhs to make a committee in the whole of 1 city.

Its not just about finding amritdharis that are good, there are a lot who are very good, but to find amritdharis who are able to fulfill the demanding requiremnents of management. Believe me, it is not easy. Being a good Sikh doesnt automatically make you a good committee member, and I know of many exemples of good practicing Sikhs who once they have been on the committee has shown themselves to be naive and un-prepared for the harsh duties of dealing with joe public.]

jaspreet, dont assume and dont get personal. Being a realist is not the same as what you are making out. You can only work with the tools you have. Learn that and grow up.

Your experience does not speak for all of the Khalsa Panth. I have seen personally the Sikh community grow when Amritdhari/Sehajdhari Sikhs take control of a Gurdwara or be another institution like a school. Do you know why they are successful. Not because how smart they are or how well they are able to make connections with stakeholders in the community. But because they bow at the feet of Guru ji and let Guru ji run the show by following instructions. I can name you other examples from history by starting from the Second Guru of the Sikhs. This plan is ALWAYS successful. No extra effort is needed to implement such plans. I believe along with other Amritdhari Singhs and Kaurs when my Guru says he will stand shoulder to shoulder with me when I follow his hukams that he will do it. I do not second guess or doubt Guru ji at all. I can give you numerous examples of this taking place.

The Guru doesn't need some mona or Amritdhari that has a lot of money and political push to do anything, while both disobey Guru Sahib. The Guru is self-sufficient, if you already don't know read Mool Mantar. In there we are told Guru Sahib is self-sufficient. Guru Sahib showed his ability through many Sikhs in the past and the more recent past and is currently showing it through many Sikhs.

What you are trying to do is pigeon hole Guru Sahib and then try to run the show on your own by saying a mona is better than a certain amritdhari because of some condition you put on the amritdhari. Obviously you have not done deep contemplation of Gurbani to know..............Sikhs do ardas and don't issue commands to Guru Sahib.

[chatanga]

jaspreet, your post smacks of idealism, not realism.

and stop twisting what i am saying, if you think that being amritdhari automatically makes you better to handle the job of running a gurdwara, why are so mnay gurdwaras in the UK, which are run by amritdharis performing so badly.

why is it that the gurdwaras run by people elected on the basis that they are amritdhari and so they must know what they are doing, making a mess of the gurdwara s and messing up the next generation.

the truth is that it is best to have amritdharis who are actually good at management running gurdwaras. failing that then its best to get kesadharis who know how to.

i have never said a mona is better equipped, just that being amritdhari is not the only requirement for gurdwara management.

stop making out words in my name, you are beginning to remind me of some of the people who i have worked with in the past. yes amritdhari ones amongst them.

[chatanga]

Your experience does not speak for all of the Khalsa Panth. I have seen personally the Sikh community grow when Amritdhari/Sehajdhari Sikhs take control of a Gurdwara or be another institution like a school.

right you are dont have a problem with sehajdharis taking control of a gurdwara? now i know you are making things up. the sehajdhari dont even make up 1% of the panth today. Not even 0.1%.

and if you beleive that the Sikhs today are in the same league of the Sikhs of Gurus time, then you are living in an ideal world.