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Great example of why Gatka is not taken seriously in the martial arts community.

http://dailysikhupdates.com/watch-group-kaur-khalsa-perform-for-funtertainment-on-sony/

Exactly why Gurbhachan Singh Bhindranewale described this type of Gatka as that of circus performers and baazigars rather than a combat art..

Do people still think The Khalsa , Akal purakh di fauj went into battle against the armies of ahmed shah abdali and carried out circus acts ??

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I am lucky enough to be living where many of the annual Yudh tournament winners reside. I have seen them doing "exhibitions" of Gatka that had no stunt work or drama but rather combat/dueling type engagements that draw blood often (and have sometimes sent the Ustads and students to the hospital).

It is not this show.

Another group (Bir Khalsa Group) were even chided in one of their appearances because they were making a show of it.

(towards the end).

If the proponents of Shastar Vidiya want to continue exhorting their martial art, they should then engage in some live demonstration of its effectiveness - perhaps in India where the Sikhs are being oppressed and taken advantage of. Those who practice "fake" Gatka (Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa) have demonstrated their courage already and shown their mettle. We have yet to see such determination and grit from Shastar Vidiya practitioners (and Shastar Vidiya as a term is being strictly applied to the techniques of Mr. Nidar Singh aka. Surjit Singh Bains) in a practical application to the benefit of the Sikh Panth.

There is no point claiming to be the last Sikh warrior and teaching the dying secret art when it sits comfortably in the UK in a state of relative freedom while beadbi of Gurbani, Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Gursikhs and Gur Asthans continue to happen in India. If Shastar Vidiya was the true martial art, it was practiced to meet the defensive needs of the Khalsa by the likes of Baba Deep Singh, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur (Bhai Gurbaksh Singh) and countless other Gursikhs. Currently, Shastar Vidiya is like a bright, shiny unused sword sitting in its sheath untouched on the battlefield while a battle breaks around it every so often resulting in casualties.

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Nidar hijacked the title of shastar vidya. Still relevant:

http://www.sikh24.com/2013/07/31/controversial-neo-nang-niddar-to-hold-seminar-in-toronto/#.VddpkMvnbqA

Gatka is focused on the fari soti and other footwork basics of jang vidiya. Gatka is a part of shastar vidya- the knowledge of weapons and for someone practicing the art, the sky is the limit. You get as good as your foundation, how much you practice and the level in which you practice.

With that said agreed about the OP about this entertainment business is doing besti to the art.

There is a lot of intentional mystification of the subject but reality is you can reverse engineer many things simply by looking at a type of shastar, shape of shastar and other properties of it.

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Why isn't firearms training part of Shastar Vidhiya ? If a war breaks out we shouldn't be throwing spears at tanks. The reason we have been massacred many times is that we choose to use older weaponry and techniques instead. Sant Jarnail singh and 200 Singhs used old WWII rifles. Imagine if Kharkus had same light arms as the Indian Army. It would have changed the course of history.

Excellent point. Puratan Singhs were not just about fighting with swords and spears. They had incorporated guns, pistols, cannons, and even modern weaponry like howitzer artillery etc. THIS is how they became from guerilla fighters to a modern conventional army rivaling European armies of the time. Singhs today should learn modern combat arts and incorporate that into their puratan martial arts.

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THIS is how they became from guerilla fighters to a modern conventional army rivaling European armies of the time.

I believe an English newpaper in the 1800s said that if Hari Singh Nalwa had the same equipment and amount of soldiers of a European army, he would conquer most of Asia in no time.

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Why isn't firearms training part of Shastar Vidhiya ? If a war breaks out we shouldn't be throwing spears at tanks. The reason we have been massacred many times is that we choose to use older weaponry and techniques instead. Sant Jarnail singh and 200 Singhs used old WWII rifles. Imagine if Kharkus had same light arms as the Indian Army. It would have changed the course of history.

Probably because a big tegha goes better with their chakar, dumallas and cholas than a 9mm does.

A lot of them like to pretend they're following in the steps of Puraatan warriors. But as Johnny Veer pointed out, in accounts of the Puraatan Singhs penned by their enemies they are often acclaimed for their proficiency with firearms (matchlocks and flintlocks). This fixation with the weapons of the antique world is a product of romantic nostalgia, but the Khalsa of old was nothing if not practical.

I'll try and get some quotes later.

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Sorry to disappoint you cisco singh but thats not Gatka. That's just some stage stunts that some are now doing and say this is "Gatka". This all started from that Bir Khalsa Group.

This is incorrect " fake" "jahir Gatka" has existed for a long time, ever since after the Anglo Sikh wars after which British inspired watered down Sikhi was pushed by the British and their chelas , Gurbhachan Singh Bhindranewale records this as below.

Two Forms of Vidiya - Gatka and Shastarvidiya - Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale

The following passage is from 'Gurbani Paat Darpan' written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranvale. Baba Ji is explaining two forms of vidiya [science/learning], the first being for show and the second being the real vidiya. Baba Ji uses the example of one performing exhibition Gatka as the false vidiya, whereas the real soorma [warrior] vidiya is where there is no show/exhitibtion.

From Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38.

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ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ।

There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science]

(੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

[similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

(੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves.

ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form.

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This is incorrect " fake" "jahir Gatka" has existed for a long time, ever since after the Anglo Sikh wars after which British inspired watered down Sikhi was pushed by the British and their chelas , Gurbhachan Singh Bhindranewale records this as below.

Two Forms of Vidiya - Gatka and Shastarvidiya - Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale

The following passage is from 'Gurbani Paat Darpan' written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranvale. Baba Ji is explaining two forms of vidiya [science/learning], the first being for show and the second being the real vidiya. Baba Ji uses the example of one performing exhibition Gatka as the false vidiya, whereas the real soorma [warrior] vidiya is where there is no show/exhitibtion.

From Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ।

There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science]

(੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

[similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

(੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves.

ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form.

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Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji does not even use the word gatka in the above writing. Stop putting words into Sant ji's mouth.

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I don't disagree for most part with what Cisco says so long as there is no plug for Nidar because he is a complete sham and doesn't have anything of value to teach.

At end of day many arts that are used by jangi soormay are similar with little variation. Gatka is preparation and like I said in my previous post, once the fundamentals are solid (no wasted movements and proper foot work) sky is limit. A Soorma who has conquered himself can become a Jangi Soorma on battlefield as well by emplying vidya he has learnt. In all sword play and knife fighting it is taught with wood or kydex replicas with similar weight.

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