Question For Gusikhs/gurmukhs

[Balkaar]

To my shame I wasn't aware of the controversy surrounding this Raag Mala debate. Unlike most other issues of this nature, the individuals for and against read like a who's who of modern Sikh history, with notable personalities on both sides. Fascinating. Utterly fascinating. I wonder which side is in the right?

If there was any way of knowing for sure, it would surely have come to light by now. But there is something interesting about that list of individuals for and against raagmala.

The side against Raagmala seems to be predominantly comprised of professors and scholarly types, whereas the faction arrayed opposite them is chiefly made up of saints and parchaaraks. I wonder if there is some deeper meaning that can be imparted to that.

[InderjitS]

The side against Raagmala seems to be predominantly comprised of 'professors and scholarly types', whereas the faction arrayed opposite them is chiefly made up of saints and parchaaraks. I wonder if there is some deeper meaning that can be imparted to that.

Same can be said of the anti Dasam Granth brigade, majority if not all are missionaries who have spent much too long studying but not understanding the Gurmat perspectives in line with Guru Granth Sahib and been unable to extend this Gurmat to daily living.

[DSGkeepingitreal]

I said "the only Jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ", and to rebut this point, you've given us a list of names of individuals. You haven't 'destroyed' anything. I don't dispute that there are people who may personally retain some doubts about raagmalas authenticity. Please tell me which contemporary major Sikh jathebandi other than the AKJ alleges that Raagmala is not Gurbani.

You seem completely hysterical, accusing every single person who disagrees with you of being a liar, a hypocrite or a trouble-maker in those big, silly capital letters. Why are you so bitter?

Who cares about Jathebandi? They all have internal disputes as well...Jathebandi doesn't mean anything. Highly respected Gursikhs are who we should look at..and that's exactly what I posted..a list of Gursikhs (regardless of whether they are pro-Ragmala or anti-Ragmala).

Balkaar, this is the way of the Anti-Raagmala. What do you expect from those who can't respect all of the Satguru.

You're just a trouble maker.

When someone can't distinguish between friend or foe, it's time to step back for a while and reappraise exactly what affect being a purported person of God is having on one's mind and soul.

It is very entertaining though.

Exactly, these pro-Ragmala people are trying to mislead everyone through lies.

The fact is that both sides have Piaar for Sikhi...that should be the end of discussion, but no, these pro-Ragmala people on this forum want to split everyone apart by telling lies.

I don't know about that, I've met plenty of advocates against Raagmala who didn't come across as demented as the brother above.

Lol, yes it is.

Gurbani advises us to treat friends and foes as one and the same. By calling everybody a liar, he's kind of done that.

You're a very tricky individual. I've been watching you for some time on this forum.

To my shame I wasn't aware of the controversy surrounding this Raag Mala debate. Unlike most other issues of this nature, the individuals for and against read like a who's who of modern Sikh history, with notable personalities on both sides. Fascinating. Utterly fascinating. I wonder which side is in the right?

That's the whole point Mister Singh Jee......at this point in time who cares who is right or not? We have bigger problems than whether Ragmala is Gurbani or not.

Both sides on that list had UTMOST respect and love for one another.

But here we have pro-Ragmala extremists who are trying to do ninda of Sants/Brahmgianis/Gursikhs/Dhan Guru Piarey/Shaheeds who were anti-Ragmala.

And that is why I am on here challenging these people spreading lies and fake propaganda.

If there was any way of knowing for sure, it would surely have come to light by now. But there is something interesting about that list of individuals for and against raagmala.

The side against Raagmala seems to be predominantly comprised of professors and scholarly types, whereas the faction arrayed opposite them is chiefly made up of saints and parchaaraks. I wonder if there is some deeper meaning that can be imparted to that.

Lol, you clearly don't know anything if you're thinking like that....

The side against Ragmala has many Sants, Gursikhs, Guru Piarey, Shaheeds and Parcharaks as well......your bias is blinding you.

Same can be said of the anti Dasam Granth brigade, majority if not all are missionaries who have spent much too long studying but not understanding the Gurmat perspectives in line with Guru Granth Sahib and been unable to extend this Gurmat to daily living.

Look at the anti-Ragmala list.....it is FULL of Gursikhs who supported Dasam Granth.

Don't equate anti-Ragmala with anti-Dasam Granth.

[Kira]

Well Kira the only jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ, on the grounds that there are several Raags used throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which are not mentioned in the Raagmala, and because no distinction is made between Raags and Raginis in the rest of Gurbani as in the Raagmala. They claim its authorship is also ambiguous because there is no indication of which Patshaah or Bhagat authored it.

I personally find it odd that they should object to it on these grounds considering their Jatha does not even perform Kirtan according to Raag Maryada.

We can debate and debate which group of 19th/20th century panthic scholars supports it and which don't. Neither the AKJ nor the Tat Khalsa movement can trace their origins to Puraatan times.

The Damdami Taksaal on the other hand, can. It's lineage reaches all the way back to Guru Gobind Singh's time, and to Sri Damdama Sahib, the center for the dissemination of Santhiya and study of Gurbani in the old Sikh world. Their Samparda has no doubt about Raagmala's veracity. I'd say their testimony carries more weight than the conjecturing of some individuals 200 years after it was said to have been written down.

That sounds interesting. I see, thank you for clearing it up. I had a quick look over it (just a scan) and I didn't really see how it was anti-Gurbani.

The reason it's so confusing for many is because this Ang doesn't look similar to other Angs in the praise of Vaheguru and Guru Sahib. This Ang talks about the various Raags and how they are related to each other. (I understand why some people who aren't firm in Guru Sahib to believe this isn't Bani). However, the Pro-RaagMala understand that there are some parts of Guru Sahib that we just don't understand. There are many parts of Bani I don't understand, but we should know we can't know everything.

Thank you for that response.

[InderjitS]

Look at the anti-Ragmala list.....it is FULL of Gursikhs who supported Dasam Granth.

Don't equate anti-Ragmala with anti-Dasam Granth.

I'm not, maybe I did not make it clear, I was referring to just DG bashers. I support Raag Mala, but do not have hatred for AKJ.

[Balkaar]

You're a very tricky individual. I've been watching you for some time on this forum.

Lol, and what have you written about me in your little black notebook? Would it be rude of me to ask if you could share some of your secret intel?

[DSGkeepingitreal]

I'm not, maybe I did not make it clear, I was referring to just DG bashers. I support Raag Mala, but do not have hatred for AKJ.

That's what I'm saying Veer Jee, guys like you and I have love for eachother and ekta.

Whereas people like Singh123456777, Balkaar, and Jacfsingh2 have hatred. They want a black and white world. They can't realise that sometimes grey areas are part of life. They just want to split everyone up.

What I'm saying is the following:

Both sides of the pro/anti-Ragmala debate have Dhan Guru Piarey. What does this prove? Ragmala doesn't dictate who is Sant, Mahapursh, Brahmgianee, Scholar, Gursikh.

Ragmala is not the deciding factor of who is spiritual and who is not.

That's why it is really important for people to not go on either extreme (whether pro or anti) and to respect both sides and promote ekta and love and not mislead eachother or force their views on anyone. Especially on a forum like this where a lot of people are new to Sikhi.

[Balkaar]

That's what I'm saying Veer Jee, guys like you and I have love for eachother and ekta.

Whereas people like Singh123456777, Balkaar, and Jacfsingh2 have hatred. They want a black and white world. They can't realise that sometimes grey areas are part of life. They just want to split everyone up.

I don't hate the AKJ. Nothing I have said here even suggests that. I've never criticized their Jatha anywhere - there is just a great disparity between our opinions on the issue of Raagmala.

[Guest]

YOU GUYS ARE SO FAKE, TRYING TO MISLEAD ONLINE SANGAT AND SPREADING LIES!!!

Giani Gurdit Singh Jee himself with other individuals saved a Saroop from pro-Ragmala groups as they were trying to get the Saroop and destroy it.

And that's exactly what I'm saying.....when you destroy the whole evidence, it plays HEAVILY into the favour of the pro-Ragmala people's favour...because when you ask for evidence, THERE IS NONE. Don't try and be that tricky...

You know what's so funny....Giani Gian Singh Jee is a favourite of Sanatan people......and you know what's so funny,,,yesterday from Bangla Sahib Dhumma quoted Giani Gian Singh...LOL....your arguement goes out the window.....you guys are hypocrites.

Don't lie, you're clearly a trouble maker....what a liar.

The Granths are not created in the 1800's you liar...there are many from 1700's as well....and many with Signature of Guru Sahib.....

Lol, see, you are a very big trouble maker...instead of creating unity...you are focusing on seperating everyone.

It's not just AKJ, don't lie....I will destroy your arguement below...just watch.

Come on....that's a really dumb reason.....

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Its totally absurd to think that Bhai Sahib admitted to Raagmala being baani in secret but did not admit it in front of Singhs out of the fear that they will lose faith in him.

It is further ludicrous to imagine that Bhai Sahib got impressed with the deep meanings of Raagmala that Sant Gurbachan Singh jee told Bhai Sahib. I have read these meanings and they absolutely make no sense and are totally meaningless. Bhai Sahib who was a master of Gurbani Viyakaran, could have not got impressed with these meanings since they are against Grammar and even simple human logic.

Bhai Sahib would have never felt ashamed if he had realised his mistake of not reading Raagmala all his life. Bhai Sahib was a man enough to admit his mistake. The fact of the matter is that such conversation never took place between Sant jee and Bhai Sahib. Sant jee and Bhai Sahib respected each other despite this minor difference.

During the times of Bhai Sahib, he was not the most prominent opponents of Raagmala. At that time Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha and Bhai Shamsher Singh Ashok were leading the movement against Raagmala. Who in Panth could have dared to talk in front of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha? Ordinary so called gyanis used to tremble before him. Pandit jee was an ocean of knowledge and many scholars of that time had been his students at some point in life. If Sant Gurbachan Singh had to resolve to issue of Raagmala, he would have gone to convince Pandit jee and his group of scholars and not Bhai Sahib who was not leading the movement against Raagmala. Once Sant Amir Singh of Taksal tried but lost miserably to Pandit jee.

Rumours like this one are lurking within Taksal for long time. Another one of the rumour is that during his end days, Bhai Sahib was suffering a lot and requested Sant Gurbachan Singh to save him. Sant jee asked him to admit his mistake of Raagmala and only then he was released from the suffering. Such a bogus story this is. Total nonsense. Dr Tarlochan Singh was there during the last moments of Bhai Sahib and he has written how peaceful Bhai Sahib was. He was in total bliss and had no suffering.

Another absurd story about Bhai Sahib is that when Bhai Sahib tried to enter Sach Khand after passing away, doors were shut on him because he did not read Raagmala. These jokers who make up these stories dont know that Bhai Sahib was a resident of Sach Khand right while living. Who could have denied him Sach Khand after leaving this body?

Dont believe such stories. Bhai Sahib stayed in Chardi Kala till his last days on this planet and he never admitted Raagmala to be baani.

Kulbir Singh

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Scholars and Saints for Ragmala: Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Akali Kaur Singh, Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji (Jatha Bhindran), Sant Giani Kartar Singh Ji, Sant Baba Bishan Singh Ji (Murale Wale), Sant Baba Makhan Singh Ji (Sato Gali Wale), Sant Giani Kirpal Singh Ji (Sato Gali Wale), Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji (Kaleran Wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Kaleran Wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Rara Sahib) and Sant Samaj (Society of Saints), Shaheed Gurbachan Singh Manochahal, Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Thakur Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Nihal Singh Tarna Dal, Sant Harnam Singh Rampurkherewale, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa.

Scholars and Saints against Ragmala: Famous Sikh historian Giani Gian Singh, Giani Ditt Singh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh (founders of Singh Sabha Movement); Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; ; Sant Arjun Singh Vaid; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh; Master Tara Singh; Gyani Sher Singh; Babu Teja Singh; Giani Nahar Singh; Principal Dharmanant Singh; Giani Bishan Singh Teeka-kar; Sant Baba Teja Singh Mastuana Wale; Principal Ganga Singh; Dr. Ganda Singh; Prof. Sahib Singh; S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C.; Bhai Randhir Singh, research scholar; Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa; Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh; Principal Narinjan Singh; Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh; Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh; Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar; Shaheed Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, etc.

THERE ARE SANTS, BRAHMGYANIS, MAHAPURSH/MAHAPURAKHS, SHAHEEDS, SCHOLARS, ETC ON BOTH SIDES........WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET OUT OF THIS? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE AND DIVISIONS...YOU HAVE EXPOSED YOURSELVES AS ANTI-SIKH PERSONALITIES.....ALL OF THESE DHAN GURU PIAREY HAD LOVE AND RESPECT FOR EACHOTHER.....WHO ARE YOU TO TRY AND CREATE DIFFERENCES? YOU HAVE EXPOSED YOUR TRUE INTENTIONS.

Bro show some real written evidence that pro Raag Mala crew burnt saroops. I can't go by what you glacé written alone. I gave you my evidence now you show me in which Granth or pustak it's written that pro Raag Mala crew burnt saroops.

Again show evidence that there are Granth that don't have Raag Mala that are from the 1700s. Show proper evidence m'kay.

[DSGkeepingitreal]

I don't hate the AKJ. Nothing I have said here even suggests that. I've never criticized their Jatha anywhere - there is just a great disparity between our opinions on the issue of Raagmala.

Yeah, so Veer Jee, why not leave it at that? Obviously there are differences on many issues in the Sikh Panth.

But these issues are very minor compared to everything else which has been going on since 1469.

http://gursikhijivan.blogspot.ca/2012/02/ddt-akj-love-unity-respect.html

http://www.akj.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8090

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sikhroots/15962704846

http://manvirsingh.blogspot.ca/2007_10_01_archive.html

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Photos from Saanjha Akhand Keertan Smaagam, Birmingham