Question For Gusikhs/gurmukhs

[Guest Jacfsing2]

can someone kindly explain to me why there is hostility towards this ang. I'm not an expert on Gurbani so im a bit confused by this.

The reason it's so confusing for many is because this Ang doesn't look similar to other Angs in the praise of Vaheguru and Guru Sahib. This Ang talks about the various Raags and how they are related to each other. (I understand why some people who aren't firm in Guru Sahib to believe this isn't Bani). However, the Pro-RaagMala understand that there are some parts of Guru Sahib that we just don't understand. There are many parts of Bani I don't understand, but we should know we can't know everything.

[Balkaar]

The reason it's so confusing for many is because this Ang doesn't look similar to other Angs in the praise of Vaheguru and Guru Sahib.

It's the same sort of reasoning utilized by the anti Dasam Granth cadre. Sri Dasam Granth and Sri Raagmala don't conform to their standards of what they think Gurbani is supposed to be like, so they dismiss both of them.

The ways of the Almighty are a mystery to us.

[scali]

Once a Ragi named Puran Singh performed at Nanaksar. Baba Nand Singh was quiet happy with his kirtan. He said to Puran Singh to ask for whatever. Puran Singh said he want do kirtan in Raag, Baba Nand Singh told one of his sevadaars to take Puran Singh to his home so he can so many Malas of Raag Mala path continuously for a period of time. Puran Singh became so engrossed in Raag Mala Paath that he couldn't come to kirtan. Baba Nand Singh called for him he stated the paath takes all his time. Baba Nand Singh told him to its okay start your kirtan as he had done enough paath. After a while Raag automaticlly seem to come to Ragi Puran Singh and he would perform kirtan in Raags.

Source Anand Chamatkar vol 1 written by Baba Nand Singh Hazoori Ragi Gurmukh Singh. Son of Baba Nand Singh first sevadaar Uttam Singh.

[DSGkeepingitreal]

YOU GUYS ARE SO FAKE, TRYING TO MISLEAD ONLINE SANGAT AND SPREADING LIES!!!

Show the evidence of Singhs burning saroops.

Giani Gurdit Singh Jee himself with other individuals saved a Saroop from pro-Ragmala groups as they were trying to get the Saroop and destroy it.

And that's exactly what I'm saying.....when you destroy the whole evidence, it plays HEAVILY into the favour of the pro-Ragmala people's favour...because when you ask for evidence, THERE IS NONE. Don't try and be that tricky...

"It is also recorded that in Bikrami 1906 Pandit Sobha Singh Dilwali who used to reside at Bhai Dial Singh Dera in Amritsar called upon all the Sikhs saints and scholars on Diwali day at Amritsar to discuss the issue of Ragmala. After a along discussion it was decided that Ragmala was not Gurbani. Ragmala in four birs was defaced with black ink there and then. All present signed the Gurmata. Giani Gian Singh, then about 25 years old, was also among the signatories (See Ragmala Di Asliat by Giani Hardit Singh, Chandigarh)."

I showed proof that they defaced a full ang.
Im just going by what the taksal wrote. It's up to you if yo want to believe it.

You know what's so funny....Giani Gian Singh Jee is a favourite of Sanatan people......and you know what's so funny,,,yesterday from Bangla Sahib Dhumma quoted Giani Gian Singh...LOL....your arguement goes out the window.....you guys are hypocrites.

It didn't happen since 1978 Visakhi. The Maryada stands that all Saroops of Guru Sahib MUST have RAGMALA. "Since there is a difference of opinion within the Panth on this issue, NOBODY should dare to write or print a copy of SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI excluding the RAAG MALA" (except it's not really a difference of opinion, it's just AKJ vs Everybody Else).

Don't lie, you're clearly a trouble maker....what a liar.

Again GIVE SOME PROOF OF THEM BURNING SAROOPS! I gave proof of the anti raag mala Crew defacing a whole ang and I will give proof where they ripped out raag mala.
http://frontlinepunjabiyouth.blogspot.ca/2007/12/polite-warning-to-all-raagmala-bashers.html?m=1
In this post it shows that the uk anti raag mala Crew ripped out raag mala in Gutkas and still don't know if they did rip out in maharaj Ji.

The granths your talking about are the ones that have been created in the mid 1800s when the British wanted to mislead the Khalsa.

The sant samaj was the biggest society of saints back then. The whole of sant samaj agreed raag mala is gurbani. You can't say that there were the majority the anti raag mala Crew. On these panthic meeting were the likes of baba band Singh nanaksar vale invited? Or sant bishan singh Taksal vale or sant sundar Singh bhindra vale? No they only invited the people who had the same ideology as them.

The Granths are not created in the 1800's you liar...there are many from 1700's as well....and many with Signature of Guru Sahib.....

This isn't an argument on something small, rather it is an argument on the only one who gives us life: Guru Sahib himself. Ram Rai was excommunicated for changing one word of Guru Sahib. Do you know just how serious Guru Sahib and each of his Angs are? More valuable than everything in the world put together.

Lol, see, you are a very big trouble maker...instead of creating unity...you are focusing on seperating everyone.

Well Kira the only jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ, on the grounds that there are several Raags used throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which are not mentioned in the Raagmala, and because no distinction is made between Raags and Raginis in the rest of Gurbani as in the Raagmala. They claim its authorship is also ambiguous because there is no indication of which Patshaah or Bhagat authored it.

I personally find it odd that they should object to it on these grounds considering their Jatha does not even perform Kirtan according to Raag Maryada.

We can debate and debate which group of 19th/20th century panthic scholars supports it and which don't. Neither the AKJ nor the Tat Khalsa movement can trace their origins to Puraatan times.

The Damdami Taksaal on the other hand, can. It's lineage reaches all the way back to Guru Gobind Singh's time, and to Sri Damdama Sahib, the center for the dissemination of Santhiya and study of Gurbani in the old Sikh world. Their Samparda has no doubt about Raagmala's veracity. I'd say their testimony carries more weight than the conjecturing of some individuals 200 years after it was said to have been written down.

It's not just AKJ, don't lie....I will destroy your arguement below...just watch.

The reason it's so confusing for many is because this Ang doesn't look similar to other Angs in the praise of Vaheguru and Guru Sahib. This Ang talks about the various Raags and how they are related to each other. (I understand why some people who aren't firm in Guru Sahib to believe this isn't Bani). However, the Pro-RaagMala understand that there are some parts of Guru Sahib that we just don't understand. There are many parts of Bani I don't understand, but we should know we can't know everything.

Come on....that's a really dumb reason.....

______________________________________________________________

It’s totally absurd to think that Bhai Sahib admitted to Raagmala being baani in secret but did not admit it in front of Singhs out of the fear that they will lose faith in him.

It is further ludicrous to imagine that Bhai Sahib got impressed with the deep meanings of Raagmala that Sant Gurbachan Singh jee told Bhai Sahib. I have read these meanings and they absolutely make no sense and are totally meaningless. Bhai Sahib who was a master of Gurbani Viyakaran, could have not got impressed with these meanings since they are against Grammar and even simple human logic.

Bhai Sahib would have never felt ashamed if he had realised his mistake of not reading Raagmala all his life. Bhai Sahib was a man enough to admit his mistake. The fact of the matter is that such conversation never took place between Sant jee and Bhai Sahib. Sant jee and Bhai Sahib respected each other despite this minor difference.

During the times of Bhai Sahib, he was not the most prominent opponents of Raagmala. At that time Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha and Bhai Shamsher Singh Ashok were leading the movement against Raagmala. Who in Panth could have dared to talk in front of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha? Ordinary so called gyanis used to tremble before him. Pandit jee was an ocean of knowledge and many scholars of that time had been his students at some point in life. If Sant Gurbachan Singh had to resolve to issue of Raagmala, he would have gone to convince Pandit jee and his group of scholars and not Bhai Sahib who was not leading the movement against Raagmala. Once Sant Amir Singh of Taksal tried but lost miserably to Pandit jee.

Rumours like this one are lurking within Taksal for long time. Another one of the rumour is that during his end days, Bhai Sahib was suffering a lot and requested Sant Gurbachan Singh to save him. Sant jee asked him to admit his mistake of Raagmala and only then he was released from the suffering. Such a bogus story this is. Total nonsense. Dr Tarlochan Singh was there during the last moments of Bhai Sahib and he has written how peaceful Bhai Sahib was. He was in total bliss and had no suffering.

Another absurd story about Bhai Sahib is that when Bhai Sahib tried to enter Sach Khand after passing away, doors were shut on him because he did not read Raagmala. These jokers who make up these stories don’t know that Bhai Sahib was a resident of Sach Khand right while living. Who could have denied him Sach Khand after leaving this body?

Don’t believe such stories. Bhai Sahib stayed in Chardi Kala till his last days on this planet and he never admitted Raagmala to be baani.

Kulbir Singh

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Scholars and Saints for Ragmala: Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Akali Kaur Singh, Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji (Jatha Bhindran), Sant Giani Kartar Singh Ji, Sant Baba Bishan Singh Ji (Murale Wale), Sant Baba Makhan Singh Ji (Sato Gali Wale), Sant Giani Kirpal Singh Ji (Sato Gali Wale), Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji (Kaleran Wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Kaleran Wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Rara Sahib) and Sant Samaj (Society of Saints), Shaheed Gurbachan Singh Manochahal, Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Thakur Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Nihal Singh Tarna Dal, Sant Harnam Singh Rampurkherewale, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa.

Scholars and Saints against Ragmala: Famous Sikh historian Giani Gian Singh, Giani Ditt Singh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh (founders of Singh Sabha Movement); Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; ; Sant Arjun Singh Vaid; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh; Master Tara Singh; Gyani Sher Singh; Babu Teja Singh; Giani Nahar Singh; Principal Dharmanant Singh; Giani Bishan Singh Teeka-kar; Sant Baba Teja Singh Mastuana Wale; Principal Ganga Singh; Dr. Ganda Singh; Prof. Sahib Singh; S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C.; Bhai Randhir Singh, research scholar; Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa; Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh; Principal Narinjan Singh; Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh; Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh; Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar; Shaheed Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, etc.

THERE ARE SANTS, BRAHMGYANIS, MAHAPURSH/MAHAPURAKHS, SHAHEEDS, SCHOLARS, ETC ON BOTH SIDES........WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET OUT OF THIS? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE AND DIVISIONS...YOU HAVE EXPOSED YOURSELVES AS ANTI-SIKH PERSONALITIES.....ALL OF THESE DHAN GURU PIAREY HAD LOVE AND RESPECT FOR EACHOTHER.....WHO ARE YOU TO TRY AND CREATE DIFFERENCES? YOU HAVE EXPOSED YOUR TRUE INTENTIONS.

[Balkaar]

YOU GUYS ARE SO FAKE, TRYING TO MISLEAD ONLINE SANGAT AND SPREADING LIES!!!

Giani Gurdit Singh Jee himself with other individuals saved a Saroop from pro-Ragmala groups as they were trying to get the Saroop and destroy it.

And that's exactly what I'm saying.....when you destroy the whole evidence, it plays HEAVILY into the favour of the pro-Ragmala people's favour...because when you ask for evidence, THERE IS NONE. Don't try and be that tricky...

You know what's so funny....Giani Gian Singh Jee is a favourite of Sanatan people......and you know what's so funny,,,yesterday from Bangla Sahib Dhumma quoted Giani Gian Singh...LOL....your arguement goes out the window.....you guys are hypocrites.

Don't lie, you're clearly a trouble maker....what a liar.

The Granths are not created in the 1800's you liar...there are many from 1700's as well....and many with Signature of Guru Sahib.....

Lol, see, you are a very big trouble maker...instead of creating unity...you are focusing on seperating everyone.

It's not just AKJ, don't lie....I will destroy your arguement below...just watch.

Come on....that's a really dumb reason.....

______________________________________________________________

It’s totally absurd to think that Bhai Sahib admitted to Raagmala being baani in secret but did not admit it in front of Singhs out of the fear that they will lose faith in him.

It is further ludicrous to imagine that Bhai Sahib got impressed with the deep meanings of Raagmala that Sant Gurbachan Singh jee told Bhai Sahib. I have read these meanings and they absolutely make no sense and are totally meaningless. Bhai Sahib who was a master of Gurbani Viyakaran, could have not got impressed with these meanings since they are against Grammar and even simple human logic.

Bhai Sahib would have never felt ashamed if he had realised his mistake of not reading Raagmala all his life. Bhai Sahib was a man enough to admit his mistake. The fact of the matter is that such conversation never took place between Sant jee and Bhai Sahib. Sant jee and Bhai Sahib respected each other despite this minor difference.

During the times of Bhai Sahib, he was not the most prominent opponents of Raagmala. At that time Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha and Bhai Shamsher Singh Ashok were leading the movement against Raagmala. Who in Panth could have dared to talk in front of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha? Ordinary so called gyanis used to tremble before him. Pandit jee was an ocean of knowledge and many scholars of that time had been his students at some point in life. If Sant Gurbachan Singh had to resolve to issue of Raagmala, he would have gone to convince Pandit jee and his group of scholars and not Bhai Sahib who was not leading the movement against Raagmala. Once Sant Amir Singh of Taksal tried but lost miserably to Pandit jee.

Rumours like this one are lurking within Taksal for long time. Another one of the rumour is that during his end days, Bhai Sahib was suffering a lot and requested Sant Gurbachan Singh to save him. Sant jee asked him to admit his mistake of Raagmala and only then he was released from the suffering. Such a bogus story this is. Total nonsense. Dr Tarlochan Singh was there during the last moments of Bhai Sahib and he has written how peaceful Bhai Sahib was. He was in total bliss and had no suffering.

Another absurd story about Bhai Sahib is that when Bhai Sahib tried to enter Sach Khand after passing away, doors were shut on him because he did not read Raagmala. These jokers who make up these stories don’t know that Bhai Sahib was a resident of Sach Khand right while living. Who could have denied him Sach Khand after leaving this body?

Don’t believe such stories. Bhai Sahib stayed in Chardi Kala till his last days on this planet and he never admitted Raagmala to be baani.

Kulbir Singh

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Scholars and Saints for Ragmala: Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Akali Kaur Singh, Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji (Jatha Bhindran), Sant Giani Kartar Singh Ji, Sant Baba Bishan Singh Ji (Murale Wale), Sant Baba Makhan Singh Ji (Sato Gali Wale), Sant Giani Kirpal Singh Ji (Sato Gali Wale), Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji (Kaleran Wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Kaleran Wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Rara Sahib) and Sant Samaj (Society of Saints), Shaheed Gurbachan Singh Manochahal, Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Thakur Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Nihal Singh Tarna Dal, Sant Harnam Singh Rampurkherewale, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa.

Scholars and Saints against Ragmala: Famous Sikh historian Giani Gian Singh, Giani Ditt Singh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh (founders of Singh Sabha Movement); Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; ; Sant Arjun Singh Vaid; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh; Master Tara Singh; Gyani Sher Singh; Babu Teja Singh; Giani Nahar Singh; Principal Dharmanant Singh; Giani Bishan Singh Teeka-kar; Sant Baba Teja Singh Mastuana Wale; Principal Ganga Singh; Dr. Ganda Singh; Prof. Sahib Singh; S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C.; Bhai Randhir Singh, research scholar; Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa; Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh; Principal Narinjan Singh; Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh; Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh; Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar; Shaheed Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, etc.

I said "the only Jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ", and to rebut this point, you've given us a list of names of individuals. You haven't 'destroyed' anything. I don't dispute that there are people who may personally retain some doubts about raagmalas authenticity. Please tell me which contemporary major Sikh jathebandi other than the AKJ alleges that Raagmala is not Gurbani.

You seem completely hysterical, accusing every single person who disagrees with you of being a liar, a hypocrite or a trouble-maker in those big, silly capital letters. Why are you so bitter?

[Guest Jacfsing2]

I said "the only Jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ", and to rebut this point, you've given us a list of names of individuals. You haven't 'destroyed' anything. I don't dispute that there are people who may personally retain some doubts about raagmalas authenticity. Please tell me which contemporary major Sikh jathebandi other than the AKJ alleges that Raagmala is not Gurbani.

You seem completely hysterical, accusing every single person who disagrees with you of being a liar, a hypocrite or a trouble-maker in those big, silly capital letters. Why are you so bitter?

Balkaar, this is the way of the Anti-Raagmala. What do you expect from those who can't respect all of the Satguru.

[MisterrSingh]

I said "the only Jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ", and to rebut this point, you've given us a list of names of individuals. You haven't 'destroyed' anything. I don't dispute that there are people who may personally retain some doubts about raagmalas authenticity. Please tell me which contemporary major Sikh jathebandi other than the AKJ alleges that Raagmala is not Gurbani.

You seem completely hysterical, accusing every single person who disagrees with you of being a liar, a hypocrite or a trouble-maker in those big, silly capital letters. Why are you so bitter?

When someone can't distinguish between friend or foe, it's time to step back for a while and reappraise exactly what affect being a purported person of God is having on one's mind and soul.

It is very entertaining though.

[Singhni MiriPiri]

Balkaar, this is the way of the Anti-Raagmala. What do you expect from those who can't respect all of the Satguru.

Comments like this show Sikhs still do not have respect for one another. I do not understand how you would get along with people in the real world where there are far more differences.

[Balkaar]

Balkaar, this is the way of the Anti-Raagmala. What do you expect from those who can't respect all of the Satguru.

I don't know about that, I've met plenty of advocates against Raagmala who didn't come across as demented as the brother above.

When someone can't distinguish between friend or foe, it's time to step back for a while and reappraise exactly what affect being a purported person of God is having on one's mind and soul.

It is very entertaining though.

Lol, yes it is.

Gurbani advises us to treat friends and foes as one and the same. By calling everybody a liar, he's kind of done that.

[MisterrSingh]

To my shame I wasn't aware of the controversy surrounding this Raag Mala debate. Unlike most other issues of this nature, the individuals for and against read like a who's who of modern Sikh history, with notable personalities on both sides. Fascinating. Utterly fascinating. I wonder which side is in the right?