Is Islam

[dallysingh101]

for your information chaitropakhiyan also highlights the low mentality of men ...obvious you haven't read it ... for example, the egotistic older man marrying younger wife despite having sons older than the new wife . It also talks of woman's good values too ... it is not all what you have 'heard' it to be.

I can read. I don't base my opinion on what I've 'heard', so you can get that presumption out of the way.

And yes, there was other stuff I should have put in that post everyone is crying about, I banged it out quickly and tried to keep it short, I couldn't meticulously mention every little point I wanted. Yes, it is only some women who do this. And yes, I agree that CP also highlights the folly of powerful men keeping young trophy wives, who (understandably) then go on to pine for other younger men.

And I don't idolise women like some white boy. If I see someone acting slack I'll call it if I feel like it. None of us are above that, myself included. But here in this western culture, where women are pretty much deified by goray, they've become accustomed to having no criticism put their way. Well, I'm not a white boy. And don't make out like I haven't also pointed out slackness amongst our menfolk too.

You want equality. Deal with criticism like men do too then.

[jkvlondon]

I can read. I don't base my opinion on what I've 'heard', so you can get that presumption out of the way.

And yes, there was other stuff I should have put in that post everyone is crying about, I banged it out quickly and tried to keep it short, I couldn't meticulously mention every little point I wanted. Yes, it is only some women who do this. And yes, I agree that CP also highlights the folly of powerful men keeping young trophy wives, who (understandably) then go on to pine for other younger men.

And I don't idolise women like some white boy. If I see someone acting slack I'll call if it I feel like it. None of us are above that, myself included. But here in this western culture, where women are pretty much deified by goray, they've become accustomed to having no criticism put their way. Well, I'm not a white boy. And don't make out like I haven't also pointed out slackness amongst our menfolk too.

You want equality. Deal with criticism like men do too then.

your style of criticism has zero with equality but a bitter twisted misogynistic thought pattern, I have nothing to answer for I am within the boundaries of my marriage and I trust Guru ji to do the judging of people's internal life. It is not idolising women to not tar one and all with your label ....it is following hukham ...which you don't get , if Ganika could be redeemed who the hell are we to judge who is worthy ? She was a prostitute by profession and yet that basket of sins was destroyed by naam. We are not static but dynamic creatures capable of change.

Truth is all women get is criticism ...and that from everyone else ...we are old hands at dealing looks like you need to develop a bit more

[dallysingh101]

your style of criticism has zero with equality but a bitter twisted misogynistic thought pattern, I have nothing to answer for I am within the boundaries of my marriage and I trust Guru ji to do the judging of people's internal life. It is not idolising women to not tar one and all with your label ....it is following hukham ...which you don't get , if Ganika could be redeemed who the hell are we to judge who is worthy ? She was a prostitute by profession and yet that basket of sins was destroyed by naam. We are not static but dynamic creatures capable of change.

Truth is all women get is criticism ...and that from everyone else ...we are old hands at dealing looks like you need to develop a bit more

We all need to develop a bit more, this is a never ending thing. Instead of getting defensive over gender you should understand that what I was pointing out is simply behaviours that stem from human evolutionary development. It wasn't judgmental, it was just explaining the behaviour of many converts that I've seen over the years (Sikh and nonSikh). I'm not judging it at all, my main point was that sex and a feeling of inclusion is often a motivational factor for conversions. This isn't only with Islam, plenty of people start having physical relationships with goray or goreean at work and end up joining their society because they feel 'accepted' - this includes males and females. You see these types everywhere. They are so happy about it, many feel no way about gloating about it in your face! lol

I'm glad you're talking about being less judgmental too. Because a week or so ago, you seemed to be condemning slack Panjabis of Sikh extraction as unworthy of redemption back into the faith, instead suggesting the focus should be on nonPanjabis. Now I think we are on the same page.

Simply put, whenever we see conversions, in my opinion it's more often than not due to a (real or perceived) failing in the society of the convertees. If we understand that, we've got half a chance to modify things in our own society to try and limit this. No, I don't think we'll ever eliminate people leaving because humans are humans, and people often leave for something they feel offers them things they don't get in their current world, be this economical or social or even emotional (lastone is big factor for females), but reducing it should be something we all are conscious of and working on. Without drilling down and understanding the human behavioural mechanisms that cause people to leave, we have no chance of addressing it.

And yeah, a lot of psychology theories I studied years ago which I later saw cleverly mirrored in the tales of CP play a part in how I understand and conceptualise these issues.

I'd say a lot of people have a natural tendency to go mental when we start drilling down and exploring deep, under the surface and often hidden factors of the human psyche (especially if it touches on sex), that powerfully but subtly influence human behaviour. That's why you get all manner of fervent reactions to the topic. That also explains why certain numbskulls get flustered and want to throw CP in the bin.

Yes people, the factors I mentioned can and do affect human behaviour, potentially including your mothers, daughters, sisters and even your own. Understanding them can only be advantageous for us, plus we have a precedent in this department already with CP.

Some people need to grow up. If you want to discuss these things, give them the depth they deserve and don't start panicking when we start to uncover uncomfortable (to you!) driving factors behind things we see all the time.

Lord have mercy! lol

[dallysingh101]

This is it. The "backs against the wall mentality" is quite an attractive prospect to most; rallying against the system, a David v Goliath situation.

Yeah, and in this case David seems to be successfully keeping Goliath on his toes.

If we study well respected 'Minority influence' psychology theory by Moscovici, we see a lot of what he found to cause conversions towards minority thinking are at play:

Here's something I quickly found that delves into this at a very basic level.

http://www.simplypsychology.org/minority-influence.html

[jkvlondon]

We all need to develop a bit more, this is a never ending thing. Instead of getting defensive over gender you should understand that what I was pointing out is simply behaviours that stem from human evolutionary development. It wasn't judgmental, it was just explaining the behaviour of many converts that I've seen over the years (Sikh and nonSikh). I'm not judging it at all, my main point was that sex and a feeling of inclusion is often a motivational factor for conversions. This isn't only with Islam, plenty of people start having physical relationships with goray or goreean at work and end up joining their society because they feel 'accepted' - this includes males and females. You see these types everywhere. They are so happy about it, many feel no way about gloating about it in your face! lol

I'm glad you're talking about being less judgmental too. Because a week or so ago, you seemed to be condemning slack Panjabis of Sikh extraction as unworthy of redemption back into the faith, instead suggesting the focus should be on nonPanjabis. Now I think we are on the same page.

Simply put, whenever we see conversions, in my opinion it's more often than not due to a (real or perceived) failing in the society of the convertees. If we understand that, we've got half a chance to modify things in our own society to try and limit this. No, I don't think we'll ever eliminate people leaving because humans are humans, and people often leave for something they feel offers them things they don't get in their current world, be this economical or social or even emotional (lastone is big factor for females), but reducing it should be something we all are conscious of and working on. Without drilling down and understanding the human behavioural mechanisms that cause people to leave, we have no chance of addressing it.

And yeah, a lot of psychology theories I studied years ago which I later saw cleverly mirrored in the tales of CP play a part in how I understand and conceptualise these issues.

I'd say a lot of people have a natural tendency to go mental when we start drilling down and exploring deep, under the surface and often hidden factors of the human psyche (especially if it touches on sex), that powerfully but subtly influence human behaviour. That's why you get all manner of fervent reactions to the topic. That also explains why certain numbskulls get flustered and want to throw CP in the bin.

Yes people, the factors I mentioned can and do affect human behaviour, potentially including your mothers, daughters, sisters and even your own. Understanding them can only be advantageous for us, plus we have a precedent in this department already with CP.

Some people need to grow up. If you want to discuss these things, give them the depth they deserve and don't start panicking when we start to uncover uncomfortable (to you!) driving factors behind things we see all the time.

Lord have mercy! lol

if you had read my previous posts about my own history you would realise I have lived through a real situation involving a man of this persuasion but I didn't let him get the upperhand and I can believe that little girls of the type these men go for to groom are ground down and are trapped in the fear 'of the wrath and judgement of their community' . Me I told myself I could never call myself a sikh if I did not live in truth and fight back. I am The least fazed by tales of these sort because I know there is always a deeper reason ...

What I said about apnay who had gone awry was like errant kids who refuse to listen to parents we should concentrate on the kids who actually want to listen and learn , we can always use the same resources to engage with the errant ones besides they are more likely to look again at the subject matter ( sikhi) if a good kid (gori gora or other nationality) is willing to go all the way to sikhi ...it is called working smarter not harder. you 've seen it happen

[muscleman]

Maybe this is what we need to teach people about Sikhism that it is also a way of life and not just a religion of festivals ects

Good luck.

[muscleman]

.

[proactive]

We all need to develop a bit more, this is a never ending thing. Instead of getting defensive over gender you should understand that what I was pointing out is simply behaviours that stem from human evolutionary development. It wasn't judgmental, it was just explaining the behaviour of many converts that I've seen over the years (Sikh and nonSikh). I'm not judging it at all, my main point was that sex and a feeling of inclusion is often a motivational factor for conversions. This isn't only with Islam, plenty of people start having physical relationships with goray or goreean at work and end up joining their society because they feel 'accepted' - this includes males and females. You see these types everywhere. They are so happy about it, many feel no way about gloating about it in your face! lol

I'm glad you're talking about being less judgmental too. Because a week or so ago, you seemed to be condemning slack Panjabis of Sikh extraction as unworthy of redemption back into the faith, instead suggesting the focus should be on nonPanjabis. Now I think we are on the same page.

Simply put, whenever we see conversions, in my opinion it's more often than not due to a (real or perceived) failing in the society of the convertees. If we understand that, we've got half a chance to modify things in our own society to try and limit this. No, I don't think we'll ever eliminate people leaving because humans are humans, and people often leave for something they feel offers them things they don't get in their current world, be this economical or social or even emotional (lastone is big factor for females), but reducing it should be something we all are conscious of and working on. Without drilling down and understanding the human behavioural mechanisms that cause people to leave, we have no chance of addressing it.

And yeah, a lot of psychology theories I studied years ago which I later saw cleverly mirrored in the tales of CP play a part in how I understand and conceptualise these issues.

I'd say a lot of people have a natural tendency to go mental when we start drilling down and exploring deep, under the surface and often hidden factors of the human psyche (especially if it touches on sex), that powerfully but subtly influence human behaviour. That's why you get all manner of fervent reactions to the topic. That also explains why certain numbskulls get flustered and want to throw CP in the bin.

Yes people, the factors I mentioned can and do affect human behaviour, potentially including your mothers, daughters, sisters and even your own. Understanding them can only be advantageous for us, plus we have a precedent in this department already with CP.

Some people need to grow up. If you want to discuss these things, give them the depth they deserve and don't start panicking when we start to uncover uncomfortable (to you!) driving factors behind things we see all the time.

Lord have mercy! lol

None of what you have written above justifies even remotely what you wrote about all women. At least you have done some damage limitation and claimed that you were writing quickly but one suggestion, why not read back slowly to yourself what you have written before you post it. Probably save you the hassle of writing double the amount of the original post in order to explain yourself.

[dallysingh101]

None of what you have written above justifies even remotely what you wrote about all women. At least you have done some damage limitation and claimed that you were writing quickly but one suggestion, why not read back slowly to yourself what you have written before you post it. Probably save you the hassle of writing double the amount of the original post in order to explain yourself.

I stand by what I've written as a whole. Okay, sometimes inbetween rushing in and out, you just bang out a post impetuously - these things happen. But I get the point about proof reading and being more diligent about contents. On the other hand, now that I've been posting for a while, you should get a little handle of where I'm going and if something seems way off that, a little consideration that it might possibly being a slip up instead of assuming the absolute worse (I don't think) is an illogical approach on your parts.

PS - I thought I'd made it clear that it was some women and not all women. And subsequently I cleared up that all of us are potentially under the sway of these forces to a greater or lesser extent.

[Big_Tera]

They have a very strong sense of cohesion and unity that we don't. People are often attracted to that from what I've seen. Plus girls REALLY love a good 'seeing to': Charitrio Pakyaan tells us as much too. So if some women gets a Muslim boyfriend and he does her good service and offers her the support of a wider, inclusive community (which they are to converts), the girl's mind switches and they are perfectly happy to convert and marry to continue living like this.

The politics of today have actually given sullay a lot of sympathy too in my opinion. Today they are the underdog fighting a much, bigger powerful foe. This overcomes a lot of the negativity that stems from the media. Plus we (rightfully) have a lot of suspicion of the media these days too. There are so many of them that people in places like London are accustomed to being around them daily (even at work), this familiarity ameliorates the negative publicity.

In contrast our people are often seen as archaic, and very insular as well as very independent of one another - this doesn't help give off the impression of community strength and unity that people often seek. It's also easier for people from (even nominal) Christian backgrounds to make that leap into Islam which largely retains all of the prophets/myths/narratives they've grown up with. In contrast our faith seems more alien with lots more unfamiliar Indic references.

But in the end, I think all of the actual religious and spiritual details concerning a religion are usually secondary factors to people converting in actual reality. It's more about more basic needs of belonging and structure in ones life. Plus, we have a lot of differing opinions on the nature of Sikhi - that can be confusing for outsiders.

To get deep into Sikhi you have to pass through a tough test of seeing through all of the bullsh1t our people get up to. Many people can't do that. For those strong enough to, they'll find a bottomless treasure trove.

I think this welcoming of other people into Islam has alot to do with the mosque structure.

in a mosque it is all male. hence new muslim converts who go there are more welcomed and mix freely with each other. I dont think they would get this good welcome if the muslim wifes were there.

ie in a Gurdwara both genders go. hence its more of a family enviroment with wifes and older ladies going. hence it is not an envirioment where a new sikh convert would feel easily be able to mix with. and it is not an envirment for religious disccussions.

mosques on the other hand are all male hence males with naturally be able to welcome and mix with new muslims in this enviroment.