"Chand" - Is it a Khanda???

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Amandeep Ji, just because the Buddha Dal claims that this is a Shiva symbol does not mean that that is the final word on everything. It is the duty of every Sikh to be vigilant of the preaching that is being done by any person or organization in the name of Sikhism. We are examining he symbolism present and comparaing it against what it is supposed to represent. The analysis so far has been against the Aad Chand being a Shiva symbol.

At one time, British chroniclers wrote that the Sikh Cavalry would take opium and practice their manauvers. Are we to believe that opium is a sanctioned drug in Sikhism just because it is part of history? The discussion that is taking place on this thread is not about what people claim something to be, but rather an analysis of whether that claim has any merit (though we cannot conclude for certain if this is even what the Jathedar of the Buddha Dal believes in as we have no concrete proof - aka. video interview of the Jathedar himself - of ever patronizing the Snatan websites or their viewpoints, which the Sikhs who are aware of this group has been begging for since the beginning).

To quote the Snatan Vidiya sites:

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Durbar)

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[SarabLoh]

Vahguru Jee Ka Khalsa!

Vahguru Jee Kee Fateh!!

i cant believe this....... you guys are using paintings of hindu gods as reference, let me say that again, paintings. look at some sikh paintings.... some paintings of daasmesh pita in war wearing an orange keski .... historical writings that have credibility and in mass numbers claim he use to wear a 12 - 18 inch blue dhumalla. some one who wanted to make sikhi more hindu like can go paint a painting of shiva with a dhumalla, khanda on it, wearing full banna. just cause the guys imagination was at work he is going to throw all u guys off and you will start believing in the painting

BHUL CHUUK MAAF!!!

Vahguru Jee Ka Khalsa!

Vahguru Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Deep Singh]

Bro...no one is believing in paintings. It started with Chand (if it is related to Shivji or not). And someone provided a photo with Chand fixed in Shivji's hair to show that link.

Of course! In Sikhi we can't trust photos (not even "Sikh" paintings!...perhaps 90% are painted by non-Sikhs). In Hinduism, paintings or idols (historic) can be used as a secondary reference, as they are a major part of their traditions, and that was the question (if Chand had anything to do with Shivji...and that was proved, the paintings other than that are just useless)

There are however two relevant questions that have been discussed:

1. Origin of Chand-Tora/Aad-Chand. Importance of 'the cresent' in Sikhi, if any, and if that is similar to the usage in Hinduism (or Islam)? Similar for the Khanda..

2. If Guru Gobind Singh Ji themself used Chand (they did used Dumalla etc), and if they wanted their Khalsa to use the Chand.

I see we have come to some good notable points on nr. 1, but no one has provided answars to 2.

In my opinion, if the answar to nr. 2 is negative, then there is "no point" discussing anything about Chand. If it is just something that originated among Nihang groups who wanted to uplift there own status and image by using puratan predominantly Hindu symbols, and show themselves as a 'martial breed' then it is understandable that they started using Chand. Balpreet Singh Ji's article on Tapoban.org about Sikh identity shows that in some periods under Ranjit Singh, Hindu-like traditions etc started appearing among Sikhs, and it is clear that the Chand can also be something from that corner. (if it is not proved that G

uru Sahib themself gave the Chand to the Khalsa!) Something similar is the reason why paintings of Hindu "gods" have been found in Darbar Sahib...now they are removed or being removed with Sikh arts.

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Has mentioned earlier in my post and also by Amandeep Singh on Tapoban, the Chand-Tora is an ancient symbol which pre-dates the Sikh Gurus.

Its adoption by the Sikh Nihangs appears to have occured much later as discussed before.

Its origins are undoubtedly linked to Shiva, however that is its "Origins". Full stop.

Sure there are similarities between this symbolism and other traditions, however this occurs with many things -even Kesh, how many articles do we read by ALL types of Sikh groups linking kesh as a symbol and practice among amongst warriors, scholars and holy men of all faiths.

I would suggest re-reading Amandeep's posts on Tapoban and here, wherein he has described clearly the gradual adoption and change of this type of symbolism within the Sikhs.

[amandeep]

Sat Sri Akal:

Amandeep Ji, just because the Buddha Dal claims that this is a Shiva symbol does not mean that that is the final word on everything. It is the duty of every Sikh to be vigilant of the preaching that is being done by any person or organization in the name of Sikhism. We are examining he symbolism present and comparaing it against what it is supposed to represent. The analysis so far has been against the Aad Chand being a Shiva symbol.

At one time, British chroniclers wrote that the Sikh Cavalry would take opium and practice their manauvers. Are we to believe that opium is a sanctioned drug in Sikhism just because it is part of history? The discussion that is taking place on this thread is not about what people claim something to be, but rather an analysis of whether that claim has any merit (though we cannot conclude for certain if this is even what the Jathedar of the Buddha Dal believes in as we have no concrete proof - aka. video interview of the Jathedar himself - of ever patronizing the Snatan websites or their viewpoints, which the Sikhs who are aware of this group has been begging for since the beginning).

To quote the Snatan Vidiya sites:

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Durbar)

Bhul Chuk Maa

f

I dont base any of my opinions on any websites. I base what I have written on encoutering and meeitng with the Buddha Dal in 1992-1993 including talking with Santa Singh on occasion.

Their view os important as old photogrpahic records are quite clear that the Adh Chand symbol is somehting that they have been using exclusivly - this is clear in 19th century photogrpahs (I woudl point you to the book Warrior Saints for example). The Farlaa, too, has been used exclusively by them as a mark of rank.

On these counts it does make sense to ask them what the two symbols mean - and I did, and the answers I got is basically what I have been writing.

I realise that the answers will not be palatable to everyone but thta is what they believe.

Once again, my poin tis that if you choose to wear that symbol then understand what it means to the peopl who have acted as guardians for it for at least 200 years. Instead we have folk sticking it on their head and not really understanding its origins but thinking it looks cool. A sawsticka can look kind of funky if you dont undertsand what it conjours up and of course we woudnt stick that on our heads - my point is that we shoud apply the same level of rigour to this.

Deep Singhs question about the symbolism (if any) used by Guru Gobind Singh is the more important Q.

[bhainjee]

\the Chand-Tora is an ancient symbol which pre-dates the Sikh Gurus.

Actually niranjana jee, no has been able to prove that the 'Chand-Torra' is an ancient symbol that pre-dates the Sikh Gurus. All that has been presented is that the half/moon crescent which is a symbol of fertility in Hindu matt looks like a stretched out version of the Chand in a Chand-Torra. It has also been presented that if you take a shivling, flatten it to 2D and then put some curves in it, it can look like the khanda in a Chand-torra if you squint and look at it. Then both things were put together (the shivling was placed into the symbol representing female fertility) and claimed to be the same as the Chand-Torra.

So it is very incorrect to state that 'Chand-Torra' is an ancient symbol that pre-dates the Sikh Gurus.

[Gurbar Akaal]

look familar??

[Gurbar Akaal]

..

ERRRRRRR... WHERES THE PIC I POSTED ?????

DELETED BY MODS? <_<

[Niranjana]

So it is very incorrect to state that 'Chand-Torra' is an ancient symbol that pre-dates the Sikh Gurus.

Gur Fateh Bhain Jee,

I shall not comment on your analysis, but if you consider the Chand Tora is be a uniquely Sikh symbol, please could you indicate when it was adopted by the Sikhs?

Did the Gurus utilise this symbol?

Moreover, what are your views with regard to the variations found within what for want of a better term could be called Turban Badges or Pins (see the pictures of the Rattray Sikh Battlion and then those of the Dogras and others through to the modern day Khanda).

In essence, Amandeep Singh is correct in saying "Deep Singhs question about the symbolism (if any) used by Guru Gobind Singh is the more important Q."

[Pakandi baba]

A CHAND??? OMG IT'S AN ISLAMIC SYMBOL MAYBE THAT'S WHAT WE ALL ARE?? NO, NO, WE'RE HINDUS, BECAUSE IT SHIVA'S WINKY WOO *SHUDDERS*!!

Lord, can you listen to yourselves!