Jump to content

A Guru Nanak Glossary - Christopher Shackle


Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Been after this for years and finally found it on sikhbookclub.com. This is an excellent resource to help increase our understanding of the vocabulary employed within Gurbani.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/416362237/A-Guru-Nanak-Glossary-By-Christopher-Shackle-2nd-Edition-reissued-in-2011

Not being rude but why would u trust a translation from a Gora? Apna have problems translating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Redoptics said:

Not being rude but why would u trust a translation from a Gora? Apna have problems translating.

I've said numerous times over the years now: no translation is ever perfect, and yes, they can have agendas behind them too. 

All of these types of things (like the glossary)  are just tools (with all their strengths and weaknesses) for people to get closer to Gurbani in the original language.  No more, no less. If it helps you pick up the meaning of a few dozen words you didn't know before, it's helped. 

Most apnay (especially rural ones) have a big problem with literature in general (an apathy or indifference). This is what is behind the problems of translating - there isn't that much interest in these things in the ahhm junta. They'd rather be into these types of things:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Most apnay (especially rural ones) have a big problem with literature in general (an apathy or indifference).

In  this one sentence lies the core reason  why we're slaves and homeless people today . 

 I have seen sikhs say "I am not interested in literature" when asked to read gurbani sometimes. 

Our lot is as thick skulled and as near-sighted as they come. maybe all the jokes the hindus on us was for a reason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

In  this one sentence lies the core reason  why we're slaves and homeless people today . 

 I have seen sikhs say "I am not interested in literature" when asked to read gurbani sometimes. 

Our lot is as thick skulled and as near-sighted as they come. maybe all the jokes the hindus on us was for a reason

They've been convinced it was only ever this way . But it is clear from facts and figures that sikh kingdom was a world leader in literacy, arts, numeracy and GDP (25 percent of world GDP) , also that major burning of books in villages throughout post Anglo Sikh wars and the  wholescale murder of our historians, warriors and many knowledgable gursikhs had left a dearth of true knowledge and connection to our well-educated roots, we had to be multi linguistics to understand and argue our faith when confronted by the bigger faiths.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

In  this one sentence lies the core reason  why we're slaves and homeless people today . 

 I have seen sikhs say "I am not interested in literature" when asked to read gurbani sometimes. 

Our lot is as thick skulled and as near-sighted as they come. maybe all the jokes the hindus on us was for a reason

 

3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

They've been convinced it was only ever this way . But it is clear from facts and figures that sikh kingdom was a world leader in literacy, arts, numeracy and GDP (25 percent of world GDP) , also that major burning of books in villages throughout post Anglo Sikh wars and the  wholescale murder of our historians, warriors and many knowledgable gursikhs had left a dearth of true knowledge and connection to our well-educated roots, we had to be multi linguistics to understand and argue our faith when confronted by the bigger faiths.

 

29 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Apneh particularly the rural types are interested in books and education where it coincides with social advancement. 

It is only where it serves their purpose  (ie material wealth)

However, they are not interested in gyan for gyan's sake. They have no intellectual curiosity. 

 

Juxtaposition this, with this that I found in an old online manuscript of Giani Gian Singh's Twarikh Guru Khalsa. Look at the shear depth of his background reading and endeavours (i.e. recording family oral accounts and travelling to various places to find sakhis to create his work). 

giani_gian_singh_sources.png.ab409d11a23848f14a203c220a70801a.png

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/10/2019 at 6:22 PM, Redoptics said:

Not being rude but why would u trust a translation from a Gora? Apna have problems translating.

You know I reflected a bit more on what you said, and you are right in that we should have our guards up. But after decades of reading stuff, I just assumed that most people would know this, which is a silly assumption on my part. Young people are especially susceptible for being caught out by people with nefarious designs. And boy have goray tried to do a number on our lot since they turned up in India......and to this day.

This guard we should have isn't only with the stuff written by goray (or other gair-Sikhs), there are twisted, confused, compromised apnay too that create stuff that is deviously deviant - or compromised to another agenda. I think most of the stuff that comes out of universities (whether written by Sikhs or nonSikhs) is like this. 

Stuff like the above book, is probably less dangerous than a lot of other academic stuff, because it isn't ram packed with the ideas of the author. 

I wonder if apnay have a problem translating, or is it that the general community itself isn't that interested in this type of stuff - making it unprofitable for people to create such tomes?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know I reflected a bit more on what you said, and you are right in that we should have our guards up. But after decades of reading stuff, I just assumed that most people would know this, which is a silly assumption on my part. Young people are especially susceptible for being caught out by people with nefarious designs. And boy have goray tried to do a number on our lot since they turned up in India......and to this day.

This guard we should have isn't only with the stuff written by goray (or other gair-Sikhs), there are twisted, confused, compromised apnay too that create stuff that is deviously deviant - or compromised to another agenda. I think most of the stuff that comes out of universities (whether written by Sikhs or nonSikhs) is like this. 

Stuff like the above book, is probably less dangerous than a lot of other academic stuff, because it isn't ram packed with the ideas of the author. 

I wonder if apnay have a problem translating, or is it that the general community itself isn't that interested in this type of stuff - making it unprofitable for people to create such tomes?

 

This is from Satguru mera Poora, this Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 375  aasaa mehalaa 5

man kio bairaag karehigaa sathigur maeraa pooraa ||  O my mind, why are you so sad? My True Guru is Perfect. 

In my own personal head I'd use the word 'complete' rather than 'perfect', so this is the problem with translations in general should the word 'perfect' or 'complete' be used, would you use a different word? it shouldn't be but subject to the person translating.

Personally think there should be a committee doing it so its discussed before sending out the message, worst thing that can happen is we are not translating correctly.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Redoptics said:

This is from Satguru mera Poora, this Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 375  aasaa mehalaa 5

man kio bairaag karehigaa sathigur maeraa pooraa ||  O my mind, why are you so sad? My True Guru is Perfect. 

In my own personal head I'd use the word 'complete' rather than 'perfect', so this is the problem with translations in general should the word 'perfect' or 'complete' be used, would you use a different word? it shouldn't be but subject to the person translating.

Personally think there should be a committee doing it so its discussed before sending out the message, worst thing that can happen is we are not translating correctly.

 

I agree that I would translate poora as 'complete' myself. But a warning, when you start looking at koshs (dictionaries) even those created by apnay themselves (like Nabha's monumental Mahan Kosh - even if it was created under the Singh Sabha shadow), you very frequently get multiple definitions of words, sometimes a word can mean a load of different things too.  So context is important, and we should recognise that although some words employed are ones still used in modern day Panjabi (like the example you've given), it might have had a different context/meaning back then. These are things we have to acknowledge and discover. I actually enjoy this learning process myself - but I can understand how some might feel this is an unnecessary impediment to their progress. I mean look at what we get when we type poora in an online dictionary!

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
Pūrā. 1. ਪੂਰਨ, ਮੁਕੰਮਲ, ਕਾਮਲ। 2. ਸਫਲ। 3. ਪੂਰਨ/ਕਾਮਲ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। 4. ਚੰਗਾ। 5. ਪੂਰਨਤਾ, ਪੂਰਨ ਪਦਵੀ। 6. ਪੂਰਾ ਹੋਇਆ, ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੋਇਆ। 1. perfect. 2. fruitful; perfect. 3. perfect Lord. 4. perfect, good. 5. Perfection. 6. fulfilled. 1. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੁ ਅਤੋਲੁ ॥ Raga Sireeraag 1, 9, 1:2 (P: 17). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੀਤ ਮਿਲਾਪੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਨਾਵਣੋ ॥ (ਭਾਵ ਸਚਾ, ਅਸਲ). Raga Dhanaasaree 1, Chhant 1, 3:1 (P: 688). 2. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸਭ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਵਰਸਾਵੈ ਅਉਸਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੀਉ ॥ Raga Maajh 5, 18, 2:3 (P: 99). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਪੂਰਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ Raga Gaurhee 5, 115, 2:1 (P: 188). 3. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ Raga Maajh 1, Vaar 17ਸ, 2, 2:1 (P: 146). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 1, Asatpadee 6, 5:3 (P: 414). 4. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਕਰਮ ॥ Raga Gaurhee 5, 115, 4:1 (P: 189). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਜਗਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰੀ ॥ (ਉਤਮ). Raga Dhanaasaree 4, 1, 3:2 (P: 667). 5. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰੇ ਅਬ ਪੂਰਾ ਦੀਜੈ ॥ Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, 13, 4:2 (P: 326). 6. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਨਰਾਇਣ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਮਾਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰਾ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 5, Chhant 3, 4:6 (P: 454).

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
[P. adj.] Full, complete, perfect 
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

 

English Translation
(1) n.m. acquatic larva or insect. (2) adj. complete, completed; full, entire, whole, total, all; exact, accurate, correct; stark, sheer.

 

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਵਿ- ਪੂਰਣ. "ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਃ ੫)। (2) {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਜਲ ਦਾ ਕੀੜਾ. ਕੂਰਾ। (3) ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੀ ਸਿੱਖ.

Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

 

I don't think any translation can ever get it 100%, that's why I've come to the conclusion that: although they are useful, they should NEVER been seen as anything other than a tool. That interaction between Gurbani and a Sikh is one of the most important things Guru ji left us to facilitate a direct relationship with them. We've all got to grow and I myself use and used translations for years to get to where I am (and I honestly don't think I'm 'up there' at all in this department even now). 

Problem with excessive reliance on a third party (no matter how good they are), is that they essentially become mediators or an interface in between you and maharaj. I don't think committees and the like are a complete solution either.

Saying all that, what you are doing is exactly what I am always espousing in this department: You're not blindly accepting translations and questioning/critiquing them yourself. This should be a norm for every last literate Sikh!

BTW: Shackles interpretation seems to support yours too (ironically). Remember he also heavily relied on existing koshs created by apnay:

poora_shackle.png.84aca239f4d70cba4c120dfbbedd5360.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • lol dal panth Panj told me explicitly not to associate with Vadhbhag Singh Sodhi followers!
    • We have lamp (or Jyot) the pure unscented candle for a reason. Traditionally, Patis used candle light (jyot), so they could read SGGS in darkness. Light, elec didn't exist. Dhoop is used to attract the "Good spirits" but also keep freshness where Maharaj will be.  Interestingly and coincidentally I heard Sakhi a few dsys ago. During Dasa Pitha's time these souls were roaming the Earth and even Sangat noticed. Maharaj asked them "y u here?" They replied during recitation of SGGS and making Degh they didn't bother lighting candle. THAT WAS THEE ONLY REASON NO GATI WAS GIVEN TO THEM!!!  AUTHENTICITY NOT CHECKED I heard once on YT like 2 days ago.  If u apply dhoop in one room of your house twice a week u will notice a difference esp in the smell and freshness of that room. 
    • Sangat ji, With the hot weather as per Guru's Hukm, how can we look after our kes?  First of all the beard! Working in Construction, factory and any other heated environment I UNDERSTAND! At my workplace it's over 32 degree celcius and sometimes we have to lift 20kg ALL! DAY! My tips, regularly shampoo the beard during ishnan. APPLY OIL! The technique of applying oil is by rubbing it thoroughly in the roots. Pay attention to the noise esp on the chin. You will hear this "crosh crosh" noise. Keep rubbing oil until u can't hear it no more! This means the oil has blended in properly.  Second tip on beard, keep an extra kanga in your pocket. Every two, three hours give your beard a proper comb down to get rid of any sweat or stickiness. SECOND BENEFIT! Do this all 12 months every single day your beard will look like it's been professionally groomed. TRY IT! People will ask you "What gel u use? How can yer beard be naturally like that?" You can say all I use is coconut oil or whaeva oil but just comb the beard every 2-3 hours for a minute.  As for the kes, morning time get rid of all the gronjra (or knots - forgotten English word), in the morning. However, during evening comb down make sure you get rid of small remaining gronjra and comb yer hair nice and straight. You will feel soooo so relaxed. Yes our hair will go unnoticed due to Dastar, but our hair demands time and self grooming!So proper combing down, spending a good 15-20 mins most evenings is an absolute MUST!  Most evenings I let my hair down and cover hair with my parna for 2-3 hours so it gets to relax from the tying up.  FINAL TIP! We are Sikhs so we keep fighting and remember this! The tradition of Dastar and uncut hair started in India, where the weather is twice as hot. Everytime we bring this thought in the mind, Guru ji will bless us and make us feel cooled down by a notch.  Fateh.       
    • Been so much nindya and attacking Shastarvidiya since the 2000s, however if we look at gatka now it's still mostly as poor and poorly taught as it was back then, still morris dancing moves and still behzti moves in BBC shows about sikhi and vaisakhi. If people were going to attack shastarvidiya, wouldn't have made sense to improve gatka instead and make it more effective? Additionally, the Nihang Singh presence has improved greatly now, and the cracks within the the SGPC and affiliated jatha jathebandis are showing more greatly as panth becomes more knowledgable with dasam bani and itihas day-by-day, so much gyaan which was lost within panjabi sikhs during colonial times. In the 2000s, the groups were able to talk down this bani and  gyaan by associating it with  RSS and hindus, brahminwaad etc. Not working so well now is it? However with gyaan it would be also good for us to try and preserve our martial arts and keertan vidiya as well! More and more crazy keertan videos are coming out from jatha members that are being made fun of and making sangat annoyed and upset, on tiktok and instagram reels.  
    • Author Posted April 24   On 4/21/2025 at 2:43 PM, ipledgeblue said: sirr should not be nanga because keski is usually worn.   Sikhs can sleep nanga-sirr if they choose to . Being from Punjab, almost every Sardaarji i know (amritdhari or not) sleeps/showers with their hair uncovered. I don't think Guru Sahib asked us to wear Dastar to sleep and I don't think it is in SRM.   The idea of "keski being worn to sleep" is cos in Bollywood films (Bachna Ae Haseeno) Sikh characters usually tie a gol parna when sleeping since the actor's usually Hindu. So they gotta cover his head somehow or he'd have cut hair. Same reason Diljit wore a pagg to bed in the El Sueno vid. Only time they didn't do that was in Gadar with Sunny Deol which just looked odd tbh   What in the world? What sikh or even a decent human would base their knowledge of their culture or religion on a movie industry, that too Bollywood?  Believe me, no sikh ever said, I must cover my head becasue an actor did so in a movie. I've been doing it all wrong, I must start covering mh head because the sikh in that movie did.  Just because every panjabi and sardaar you know, does something, also doesn't make it right..  Follow the guru. And if you have a medical condition, then exemptions can be made.  Just admit it, because of my medical condition, I am not able to follow this rehit. Why are you getting everyone else to drop to your level?
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use