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dallysingh101

A Guru Nanak Glossary - Christopher Shackle

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Been after this for years and finally found it on sikhbookclub.com. This is an excellent resource to help increase our understanding of the vocabulary employed within Gurbani.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/416362237/A-Guru-Nanak-Glossary-By-Christopher-Shackle-2nd-Edition-reissued-in-2011

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6 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Been after this for years and finally found it on sikhbookclub.com. This is an excellent resource to help increase our understanding of the vocabulary employed within Gurbani.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/416362237/A-Guru-Nanak-Glossary-By-Christopher-Shackle-2nd-Edition-reissued-in-2011

Not being rude but why would u trust a translation from a Gora? Apna have problems translating.

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3 hours ago, Redoptics said:

Not being rude but why would u trust a translation from a Gora? Apna have problems translating.

I've said numerous times over the years now: no translation is ever perfect, and yes, they can have agendas behind them too. 

All of these types of things (like the glossary)  are just tools (with all their strengths and weaknesses) for people to get closer to Gurbani in the original language.  No more, no less. If it helps you pick up the meaning of a few dozen words you didn't know before, it's helped. 

Most apnay (especially rural ones) have a big problem with literature in general (an apathy or indifference). This is what is behind the problems of translating - there isn't that much interest in these things in the ahhm junta. They'd rather be into these types of things:

 

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5 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Most apnay (especially rural ones) have a big problem with literature in general (an apathy or indifference).

In  this one sentence lies the core reason  why we're slaves and homeless people today . 

 I have seen sikhs say "I am not interested in literature" when asked to read gurbani sometimes. 

Our lot is as thick skulled and as near-sighted as they come. maybe all the jokes the hindus on us was for a reason

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6 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

In  this one sentence lies the core reason  why we're slaves and homeless people today . 

 I have seen sikhs say "I am not interested in literature" when asked to read gurbani sometimes. 

Our lot is as thick skulled and as near-sighted as they come. maybe all the jokes the hindus on us was for a reason

They've been convinced it was only ever this way . But it is clear from facts and figures that sikh kingdom was a world leader in literacy, arts, numeracy and GDP (25 percent of world GDP) , also that major burning of books in villages throughout post Anglo Sikh wars and the  wholescale murder of our historians, warriors and many knowledgable gursikhs had left a dearth of true knowledge and connection to our well-educated roots, we had to be multi linguistics to understand and argue our faith when confronted by the bigger faiths.

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Apneh particularly the rural types are interested in books and education where it coincides with social advancement. 

It is only where it serves their purpose  (ie material wealth)

However, they are not interested in gyan for gyan's sake. They have no intellectual curiosity. 

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10 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

In  this one sentence lies the core reason  why we're slaves and homeless people today . 

 I have seen sikhs say "I am not interested in literature" when asked to read gurbani sometimes. 

Our lot is as thick skulled and as near-sighted as they come. maybe all the jokes the hindus on us was for a reason

 

3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

They've been convinced it was only ever this way . But it is clear from facts and figures that sikh kingdom was a world leader in literacy, arts, numeracy and GDP (25 percent of world GDP) , also that major burning of books in villages throughout post Anglo Sikh wars and the  wholescale murder of our historians, warriors and many knowledgable gursikhs had left a dearth of true knowledge and connection to our well-educated roots, we had to be multi linguistics to understand and argue our faith when confronted by the bigger faiths.

 

29 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Apneh particularly the rural types are interested in books and education where it coincides with social advancement. 

It is only where it serves their purpose  (ie material wealth)

However, they are not interested in gyan for gyan's sake. They have no intellectual curiosity. 

 

Juxtaposition this, with this that I found in an old online manuscript of Giani Gian Singh's Twarikh Guru Khalsa. Look at the shear depth of his background reading and endeavours (i.e. recording family oral accounts and travelling to various places to find sakhis to create his work). 

giani_gian_singh_sources.png.ab409d11a23848f14a203c220a70801a.png

 

 

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On 7/10/2019 at 6:22 PM, Redoptics said:

Not being rude but why would u trust a translation from a Gora? Apna have problems translating.

You know I reflected a bit more on what you said, and you are right in that we should have our guards up. But after decades of reading stuff, I just assumed that most people would know this, which is a silly assumption on my part. Young people are especially susceptible for being caught out by people with nefarious designs. And boy have goray tried to do a number on our lot since they turned up in India......and to this day.

This guard we should have isn't only with the stuff written by goray (or other gair-Sikhs), there are twisted, confused, compromised apnay too that create stuff that is deviously deviant - or compromised to another agenda. I think most of the stuff that comes out of universities (whether written by Sikhs or nonSikhs) is like this. 

Stuff like the above book, is probably less dangerous than a lot of other academic stuff, because it isn't ram packed with the ideas of the author. 

I wonder if apnay have a problem translating, or is it that the general community itself isn't that interested in this type of stuff - making it unprofitable for people to create such tomes?

 

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32 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know I reflected a bit more on what you said, and you are right in that we should have our guards up. But after decades of reading stuff, I just assumed that most people would know this, which is a silly assumption on my part. Young people are especially susceptible for being caught out by people with nefarious designs. And boy have goray tried to do a number on our lot since they turned up in India......and to this day.

This guard we should have isn't only with the stuff written by goray (or other gair-Sikhs), there are twisted, confused, compromised apnay too that create stuff that is deviously deviant - or compromised to another agenda. I think most of the stuff that comes out of universities (whether written by Sikhs or nonSikhs) is like this. 

Stuff like the above book, is probably less dangerous than a lot of other academic stuff, because it isn't ram packed with the ideas of the author. 

I wonder if apnay have a problem translating, or is it that the general community itself isn't that interested in this type of stuff - making it unprofitable for people to create such tomes?

 

This is from Satguru mera Poora, this Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 375  aasaa mehalaa 5

man kio bairaag karehigaa sathigur maeraa pooraa ||  O my mind, why are you so sad? My True Guru is Perfect. 

In my own personal head I'd use the word 'complete' rather than 'perfect', so this is the problem with translations in general should the word 'perfect' or 'complete' be used, would you use a different word? it shouldn't be but subject to the person translating.

Personally think there should be a committee doing it so its discussed before sending out the message, worst thing that can happen is we are not translating correctly.

 

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44 minutes ago, Redoptics said:

This is from Satguru mera Poora, this Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 375  aasaa mehalaa 5

man kio bairaag karehigaa sathigur maeraa pooraa ||  O my mind, why are you so sad? My True Guru is Perfect. 

In my own personal head I'd use the word 'complete' rather than 'perfect', so this is the problem with translations in general should the word 'perfect' or 'complete' be used, would you use a different word? it shouldn't be but subject to the person translating.

Personally think there should be a committee doing it so its discussed before sending out the message, worst thing that can happen is we are not translating correctly.

 

I agree that I would translate poora as 'complete' myself. But a warning, when you start looking at koshs (dictionaries) even those created by apnay themselves (like Nabha's monumental Mahan Kosh - even if it was created under the Singh Sabha shadow), you very frequently get multiple definitions of words, sometimes a word can mean a load of different things too.  So context is important, and we should recognise that although some words employed are ones still used in modern day Panjabi (like the example you've given), it might have had a different context/meaning back then. These are things we have to acknowledge and discover. I actually enjoy this learning process myself - but I can understand how some might feel this is an unnecessary impediment to their progress. I mean look at what we get when we type poora in an online dictionary!

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
Pūrā. 1. ਪੂਰਨ, ਮੁਕੰਮਲ, ਕਾਮਲ। 2. ਸਫਲ। 3. ਪੂਰਨ/ਕਾਮਲ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। 4. ਚੰਗਾ। 5. ਪੂਰਨਤਾ, ਪੂਰਨ ਪਦਵੀ। 6. ਪੂਰਾ ਹੋਇਆ, ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੋਇਆ। 1. perfect. 2. fruitful; perfect. 3. perfect Lord. 4. perfect, good. 5. Perfection. 6. fulfilled. 1. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੁ ਅਤੋਲੁ ॥ Raga Sireeraag 1, 9, 1:2 (P: 17). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੀਤ ਮਿਲਾਪੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਨਾਵਣੋ ॥ (ਭਾਵ ਸਚਾ, ਅਸਲ). Raga Dhanaasaree 1, Chhant 1, 3:1 (P: 688). 2. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸਭ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਵਰਸਾਵੈ ਅਉਸਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੀਉ ॥ Raga Maajh 5, 18, 2:3 (P: 99). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਪੂਰਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ Raga Gaurhee 5, 115, 2:1 (P: 188). 3. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ Raga Maajh 1, Vaar 17ਸ, 2, 2:1 (P: 146). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 1, Asatpadee 6, 5:3 (P: 414). 4. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਕਰਮ ॥ Raga Gaurhee 5, 115, 4:1 (P: 189). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਜਗਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰੀ ॥ (ਉਤਮ). Raga Dhanaasaree 4, 1, 3:2 (P: 667). 5. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰੇ ਅਬ ਪੂਰਾ ਦੀਜੈ ॥ Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, 13, 4:2 (P: 326). 6. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਨਰਾਇਣ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਮਾਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰਾ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 5, Chhant 3, 4:6 (P: 454).

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
[P. adj.] Full, complete, perfect 
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

 

English Translation
(1) n.m. acquatic larva or insect. (2) adj. complete, completed; full, entire, whole, total, all; exact, accurate, correct; stark, sheer.

 

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਵਿ- ਪੂਰਣ. "ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਃ ੫)। (2) {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਜਲ ਦਾ ਕੀੜਾ. ਕੂਰਾ। (3) ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੀ ਸਿੱਖ.

Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

 

I don't think any translation can ever get it 100%, that's why I've come to the conclusion that: although they are useful, they should NEVER been seen as anything other than a tool. That interaction between Gurbani and a Sikh is one of the most important things Guru ji left us to facilitate a direct relationship with them. We've all got to grow and I myself use and used translations for years to get to where I am (and I honestly don't think I'm 'up there' at all in this department even now). 

Problem with excessive reliance on a third party (no matter how good they are), is that they essentially become mediators or an interface in between you and maharaj. I don't think committees and the like are a complete solution either.

Saying all that, what you are doing is exactly what I am always espousing in this department: You're not blindly accepting translations and questioning/critiquing them yourself. This should be a norm for every last literate Sikh!

BTW: Shackles interpretation seems to support yours too (ironically). Remember he also heavily relied on existing koshs created by apnay:

poora_shackle.png.84aca239f4d70cba4c120dfbbedd5360.png

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Analysing tuks or lines is great, but we should also always contextualise it within the wider context of the whole shabad itself too I think, because we can get an incomplete picture otherwise?

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ   
Āsā mėhlā 5. 
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: 
 
ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ  ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਈ  
Parabẖ ho▫e kirpāl ṯa ih man lā▫ī. 
When God shows His Mercy, then this mind is focused on Him. 
 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਭੈ ਫਲ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ 
Saṯgur sev sabẖai fal pā▫ī. ||1|| 
Serving the True Guru, all rewards are obtained. ||1|| 
 
ਮਨ ਕਿਉ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਕਰਹਿਗਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪੂਰਾ  
Man ki▫o bairāg karhigā saṯgur merā pūrā. 
O my mind, why are you so sad? My True Guru is Perfect. 
 
ਮਨਸਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਸੁਖ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਭਰਪੂਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  
Mansā kā ḏāṯā sabẖ sukẖ niḏẖān amriṯ sar saḏ hī bẖarpūrā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
He is the Giver of blessings, the treasure of all comforts; His Ambrosial Pool of Nectar is always overflowing. ||1||Pause|| 
 
ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਰਿਦ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੇ  
Cẖaraṇ kamal riḏ anṯar ḏẖāre. 
One who enshrines His Lotus Feet within the heart, 
 
ਪ੍ਰਗਟੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਰਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੨॥ 
Pargatī joṯ mile rām pi▫āre. ||2|| 
meets the Beloved Lord; the Divine Light is revealed to him. ||2|| 
 
ਪੰਚ ਸਖੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗਾਇਆ  
Pancẖ sakẖī mil mangal gā▫i▫ā. 
The five companions have met together to sing the songs of joy. 
 
ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਦੁ ਵਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ 
Anhaḏ baṇī nāḏ vajā▫i▫ā. ||3|| 
The unstruck melody, the sound current of the Naad, vibrates and resounds. ||3|| 
 
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੁਠਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ  
Gur Nānak ṯuṯẖā mili▫ā har rā▫e. 
O Nanak, when the Guru is totally pleased, one meets the Lord, the King. 
 
ਸੁਖਿ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੭॥ 
Sukẖ raiṇ vihāṇī sahj subẖā▫e. ||4||17|| 
Then, the night of one's life passes in peace and natural ease. ||4||17|| 

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20 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

ਮਨ ਕਿਉ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਕਰਹਿਗਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪੂਰਾ  
Man ki▫o bairāg karhigā saṯgur merā pūrā. 
O my mind, why are you so sad? My True Guru is Perfect. 

You know, I'd be inclined (at first glance) to interpret this as:

Why would my complete Satguru make my munh (mind?) sad.

 

It seems like a rhetorical question?

I think the use of poora here is implying that Satguru is complete, in that they can give you all you need? That goes in line with the rest of the theme of the shabad too.

It seems very heavily psychologically based too, suggesting a transformation of psyche leading to contentment? 

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41 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know, I'd be inclined (at first glance) to interpret this as:

Why would my complete Satguru make my munh (mind?) sad.

 

It seems like a rhetorical question?

I think the use of poora here is implying that Satguru is complete, in that they can give you all you need? That goes in line with the rest of the theme of the shabad too.

It seems very heavily psychologically based too, suggesting a transformation of psyche leading to contentment? 

This is the problem, over years words meaning change, so if it is possible we need to go back what the word meant , when the gurus said it, as that is true bani. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Redoptics said:

This is the problem, over years words meaning change, so if it is possible we need to go back what the word meant , when the gurus said it, as that is true bani. 

 

And we are blessed with that, because SGGS ji is so big, and we have lots of other supplementary works like Bhai Gurdas Vaaran etc. That we can cross reference. Plus Guru Arjan Dev ji's words that bani contains sat, santokh and vichaar is pertinent too, because depending on how we interpret vichaar, us discussing it like we are now, seems to be one f the whole objectives of the game (of love). Sikhi and it's scriptures and literature, truly is a linguistic treasure trove - I'm understanding that more and more lately, especially with DG. 

I do NOT think we should approach it like an Abrahamic faith, that seeks to erase a mind and then completely fill it up with something else. Sikhi seems to work on a process of transformation which involves triggering innate intuition within us?

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18 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

And we are blessed with that, because SGGS ji is so big, and we have lots of other supplementary works like Bhai Gurdas Vaaran etc. That we can cross reference. Plus Guru Arjan Dev ji's words that bani contains sat, santokh and vichaar is pertinent too, because depending on how we interpret vichaar, us discussing it like we are now, seems to be one f the whole objectives of the game (of love). Sikhi and it's scriptures and literature, truly is a linguistic treasure trove - I'm understanding that more and more lately, especially with DG. 

I do NOT think we should approach it like an Abrahamic faith, that seeks to erase a mind and then completely fill it up with something else. Sikhi seems to work on a process of transformation which involves triggering innate intuition within us?

Of course as we seekers of truth, Guru Granth Sahib Ji,  is the truth, we need to learn and understand as sangat, that's the whole point. I can think one thing, I ask a question and I find out I'm wrong and you point me the direction.  As you are me and I am you .

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