muslims hoping Sikhs will help them against hindus.... i think not

[proactive]

15 minutes ago, SikhKosh said:

Uneducated morons like you working on construction sites would not know how to use politics and manipulation to achieve your goals. Sikhs need to get closer to Muslims to achieve their goals. Kartarpur Corridor was the first step, many more await to be achieved. Nothing wrong in fostering an amical relationship all while being careful to achieve:

1. Renovation and opening of the many dozens historical Gurdwaras in Pakistan that are in a bad shape.

2. Recovering Gurdwaras that were turned into schools, libraries and so on. 

3. Overseeing and encouraging Sindhi Hindu and Punjabi Christian (mainly, but other non Muslims not excluded) conversion to Sikhi. 

And so on.

Impossible to achieve all of the above without what I said. 

Not every issue in the Panth is related to Jatts or 'elite sponsored grooming gangs'. There is a world outside of that. There are many more dynamics that come into play Dalleya.

Remember the last time we 'used' Pakistan to help us, because we trusted Pakistan, all it took was Rajiv Gandhi charming that k.utti Benazir Bhutto and she gave all the info that the Pakistani state had on our movement's leadership and the police were able to eliminate the Kharkoo leadership at will. While we get a few concessions like a couple of Gurdwaras opened here and there in Pakistan, the ISI has used our goodwill to settle lakhs of Muslims in Punjab. 

Pakistan doesn't scare India anymore, it is a failed state and only survives financially on US aid and Chinese investment. We should be working with the Chinese instead because that it the biggest nightmare of the Indian state. 

[SikhKosh]

Coming on topic, it is sad to see that a few Sikh youth deciding they would embrace Christianity led to the massive Singh Sabha movement, and today lacs (hundreds of thousands) of Sikhs have become Christians and yet no revival movement is to be seen in Punjab.

Regarding the Muslims in Punjab I have been posting warnings for nearly a decade now. Wikileaks had a report from the American ambassador many years ago which warned about the Bangladeshi Muslim migrants changing the Punjab demographics and harmony.
Gujjar Muslims have various deras in Punjabs which are used to harbour Kashmiri terrorists (see Dinanagar attacks for example) and other illegal activities. The Punjabi Muslim who was secular up till the 70s mostly like the singers (Sadiq, Manak, Akhtar, and so on) are increasingly coming under Wahhabi influence which is a danger as well. They also feared the Sikhs post 1947, an influence which started to wane in the 90s due to several factors. Mainly police officers like Alam and Mustapha misusing their power to settle Muslims, convert Sikh orphans to Islam and secondly Sikhs forging a false sense of 'minority victimhood' (Sikhs and the abrahamics vs 'Brahminvadis').

Sikhs will rise again but it will take several years before the mainstream wakes up. Muslim and Christian rioting will increase in Punjab in coming years which will open many peoples eyes.

[SikhKosh]

27 minutes ago, proactive said:

Remember the last time we 'used' Pakistan to help us, because we trusted Pakistan, all it took was Rajiv Gandhi charming that k.utti Benazir Bhutto and she gave all the info that the Pakistani state had on our movement's leadership and the police were able to eliminate the Kharkoo leadership at will. While we get a few concessions like a couple of Gurdwaras opened here and there in Pakistan, the ISI has used our goodwill to settle lakhs of Muslims in Punjab. 

Pakistan doesn't scare India anymore, it is a failed state and only survives financially on US aid and Chinese investment. We should be working with the Chinese instead because that it the biggest nightmare of the Indian state. 

If Bhutto betrayed Sikhs, Zia Ul Haq did support Sikhs and the movement in a massive way as well. He opened up Gurdwaras first time after 1947, sent Pak Sikhs to get training in India (so R&AW wouldn't send their agents in the garb of Sikh preachers to Pak) and so on. Without Pak support, the movement would not have lasted as long as it did - 95% of kharkoos went to Pak to get their training or purchase arms. I'm aware that most Sikh jathebandis however had to buy their own weapons and ammunition, it was not given in charity by ISI. But the K'stan angle is a tricky one and I'd be careful with Pakis in that regard. They think they can keep using us against India to avenge their humiliation in 1971 and carve out Kashmir but this will remain a distant dream of theirs.

We need to maintain the cordial relations as far as the historical gurdwareh and non Muslim Paks converting to Sikhi are concerned. Every other matter with them needs to be taken with caution (opening our borders for them is a no, them using K'stan issue is a no, and so on). I said exactly same thing about Pakistan being a failed state, but enjoying some support in a failed state is better than having no support.

Chinese used Pakis against India and US but are now hated by the mainstream Pakis. Many Chinese men married Pak women by lying that they were Muslims. So not much better than Paks are they. So you want these Chinese support for Panthic issues? Will they spare Sikh women if they didn't even spare their main allies' women? Anyways, I am just using your logic on you, I don't mind creating any kind of strategic partnerships that benefits the Sikh cause.

Anyhow, Chinese were blasting Khalistani songs loudly during the last stand off with the Indian army a few months back to make Sikh soldiers rebel. Cheeky guys 

[SikhKosh]

26 minutes ago, proactive said:

Remember the last time we 'used' Pakistan to help us, because we trusted Pakistan, all it took was Rajiv Gandhi charming that k.utti Benazir Bhutto and she gave all the info that the Pakistani state had on our movement's leadership and the police were able to eliminate the Kharkoo leadership at will. -

Also don't forget, since you support massive parchar among Jaats, for every Manoj Duhan you have a Vishal Jood who attacks Sikhs.

If you had a Bhutto, you also had Zia.

[proactive]

5 minutes ago, SikhKosh said:

If Bhutto betrayed Sikhs, Zia Ul Haq did support Sikhs and the movement in a massive way as well. Without Pak support, the movement would not have lasted as long as it did - 95% of kharkoos went to Pak to get their training or purchase arms. I'm aware that most Sikh jathebandis however had to buy their own weapons and ammunition, it was not given in charity by ISI. 

But the K'stan angle is a tricky one and I'd be careful with Pakis in that regard. They think they can keep using us against India to avenge their humiliation in 1971 and carve out Kashmir but this will remain a dream.

We need to maintain the cordial relations as far as the historical gurdwareh and non Muslim Paks converting to Sikhi are concerned. Every other matter needs to be taken with a caution (opening our borders for them is a no, them using K'stan is a no, and so on). I said same about Pak being a failed state, but this failed state 

Anyhow, Chinese were blasting Khalistani songs loudly during the last stand off with Indians a few months back to make Sikh soldiers rebel. Cheeky guys 

The Pakistanis used us, even Zia Ul Haq because they could use our youth to bog down the Indian army in Punjab so that their dream of Kashmir joining their failed state could come true. To be honest if Zia Ul Huq was committed to helping us, he should have attacked Punjab either in June/July 1984 or October/November 1984. Our people would have risen up on both occasions but Zia Ul Huq was essentially a coward and his support was always lukewarm. His own family was kicked out of Jalandhar by Sikh Jathas in 1947 so perhaps it is too much to expect that he would have any sympathy with us. In June 1984 the Sikhs in the army mutinied and although these were new recruits, the fact of a Pakistan invasion would have made the Sikhs in the army think whether they want to fight for the country that had just massacred hundreds of innocent pilgrims in Durbar Sahib. If Pakistan had invaded it would have created an international situation which would have forced the world to intervene in the form of the UN. 

[Premi5]

44 minutes ago, SikhKosh said:

Uneducated morons like you working on construction sites would not know how to use politics and manipulation to achieve your goals. Sikhs need to get closer to Muslims to achieve their goals. Kartarpur Corridor was the first step, many more await to be achieved. Nothing wrong in fostering an amical relationship all while being careful to achieve:

1. Renovation and opening of the many dozens historical Gurdwaras in Pakistan that are in a bad shape.

2. Recovering Gurdwaras that were turned into schools, libraries and so on. 

3. Overseeing and encouraging Sindhi Hindu and Punjabi Christian (mainly, but other non Muslims not excluded) conversion to Sikhi. 

And so on.

Impossible to achieve all of the above without what I said. 

Not every issue in the Panth is related to Jatts or 'elite sponsored grooming gangs'. There is a world outside of that. There are many more dynamics that come into play Dalleya.

@dallysingh101has been to University, and seems to have the highest 'street' education of anyone on this site (in my opinion). He's also worked in offices and as a teacher. 

And what's wrong with working on a building site? Maybe he prefers it over the office environment ?

Since when have Sikhs historically been able to trust Muslims ? I think never

Do you see Sikh pracharaks being able to freely spread their message in a Muslim majority country ? I don't

No one ever said "every issue in the Panth is related to Jatts or 'elite sponsored grooming gangs'" - these are not issues mentioned in this thread, but the grooming gangs issue shows an example of why Sikhs cannot trust certain demographics in my opinion

[SikhKosh]

11 minutes ago, proactive said:

The Pakistanis used us, even Zia Ul Haq because they could use our youth to bog down the Indian army in Punjab so that their dream of Kashmir joining their failed state could come true. To be honest if Zia Ul Huq was committed to helping us, he should have attacked Punjab either in June/July 1984 or October/November 1984. Our people would have risen up on both occasions but Zia Ul Huq was essentially a coward and his support was always lukewarm. His own family was kicked out of Jalandhar by Sikh Jathas in 1947 so perhaps it is too much to expect that he would have any sympathy with us. In June 1984 the Sikhs in the army mutinied and although these were new recruits, the fact of a Pakistan invasion would have made the Sikhs in the army think whether they want to fight for the country that had just massacred hundreds of innocent pilgrims in Durbar Sahib. If Pakistan had invaded it would have created an international situation which would have forced the world to intervene in the form of the UN. 

1971 broke Paks back bone. They would never have succesfully invaded India in 1984. They would've suffered a defeat worse than 1971. 

Zia Ul Haq being a Jalandhari Punjabi had more affinity with Sikhs than Benazir Bhutto who had Sindhi and Kurdish ancestry. Him or his ancestors being kicked out of Jalandhar does not mean he held grudges against them. Go on youtube and see thousands of Pak Muslims and Indian Sikhs who were from the other side of the border still remember their ancestral lands and friends with nostalgia despite personally suffering from 1947, unlike you or myself.

If Zia did not have sympathy with Sikhs, he would have just opened training camps for militants in Pak without further opening any Gurdwaras. Remember that this was the 80s, Sikh diaspora was weak unlike now so he did not have to feign support to Sikhs to win brownie points. Yet he went out of his way to open Gurdwaras like Panja Sahib and others. Ask any elder Sikh who went to Pak in the 70s 80s and how they were received with warmth by Zia.

[SikhKosh]

39 minutes ago, Premi5 said:

@dallysingh101has been to University, and seems to have the highest 'street' education of anyone on this site (in my opinion). He's also worked in offices and as a teacher. 

And what's wrong with working on a building site? Maybe he prefers it over the office environment ?

Since when have Sikhs historically been able to trust Muslims ? I think never

Do you see Sikh pracharaks being able to freely spread their message in a Muslim majority country ? I don't

No one ever said "every issue in the Panth is related to Jatts or 'elite sponsored grooming gangs'" - these are not issues mentioned in this thread, but the grooming gangs issue shows an example of why Sikhs cannot trust certain demographics in my opinion

You're naive to think Dalla is street smart. 

Don't you see a massive Kartarpur corridor (whatever their intentions may be) in a Muslim majority country?
Don't you see thousands of Sindhi Hindus embracing Sikhi in Pak in a Muslim majority country?

[Premi5]

2 minutes ago, SikhKosh said:

You're naive to think Dalla is street smart. 

Don't you see a massive Kartarpur corridor (whatever their intentions may be) in a Muslim majority country?
Don't you see thousand of Sindhi Hindus embracing Sikhi in Pak in a Muslim majority country?

Dalla Brar (you said Dalla) was blessed by Dasam Patshahi...

[SikhKosh]

Just now, Premi5 said:

Dalla Brar (you said Dalla) was blessed by Dasam Patshahi...

Brar - Jatt? Dally the Dalla would not like hearing of such Sikhs because of their background.