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The ‘I’ mentioned underneath is not Harjinder Singh – man in blue. The ‘I’ represents Guru’s teachings, which I am trying to follow in my daily life. June 27, 2012 by Harjinder Singh Source: maninblue I am human, I make mistakes, but in spite of my foolishness I receive many blessings. I am not a gora (white) Sikh or a kala (black) Sikh - I am a Sikh I am not a mazbi Sikh, a jat Sikh or a ramgharia Sikh - I am a Sikh I am not a doaba Sikh or a malwa Sikh - I am a Sikh I am not an AKJ Sikh or a Taksali Sikh - I am a Sikh My Guru is the Guru Granth Sahib, not the Námdhari satguru, not the yogi who called himself the leader of the Sikhs in the western hemisphere, not the Soho Road (Birmingham) spiritual leader of the Sikhs in the UK, nor any other self-appointed holy man, pardhan or jathedar - I am a Sikh I try to see God in all, regardless of race, faith, nationality or caste/social class - I am a Sikh I am an initiated (amritdhari) Sikh, but I do not look down on those who are not - I am a Sikh I wear a turban and keep the 5 Ks, but I do not look down on those who do not - I am a Sikh I do not drink alcohol, do not smoke tobacco, do not use recreational drugs - I am a Sikh I do not eat meat, fish, poultry or eggs, but do not condemn those who do - I am a Sikh I wear ‘bana’, traditional clothes associated with Guru Gobind Singh’s Khalsa, but I know that I will be judged on my behaviour, not on my clothes - I am a Sikh I do not cut my hair or shave, I wear a kirpan, kachhera, kara and kangha, but do not think that those who do not are bad people - I am a Sikh

Never ask a lady her age... and never ask a Sikh how many Jap Ji Sahibs he or she does! :biggrin2:

Besides doing Nitnem I think a Gursikh should strive to do more Banis. For example doing Aarti bani with Rehras Sahib, doing Rakhya De Shabad with Kirtan Sohilla does not take a lot of time. Many Gursikhs add Sukhmani Sahib and Assa Di Vaar to their Nitnem. More advanced Gursikhs do the entire Panj Granthi as part of their Nitnem. Doing multiple Japji Sahib Paaths is also a good routine. Along with doing Paath, I think tukh by tukh one should also try to understand the Viakhya of Japji Sahib. It is much more fun doing paath when you understand it. Japji Sahib is a very deep bani, so a careful study of this bani should be done by reading various Teekas and listening to Kathas done by knowledgeable Gursikhs. Once you start to understand Japji Sahib, you will notice your outlook and perception of everything will start to change and become more Gurmat oriented.

ITL = Which other states in India have the centre controlling their rivers and hydrel power? UK = All states are subject to the same federal rules but it's pretty transparent how Hindu states surrounding Punjab get a better slice of the bargain. ITL = How much monetary investment is taking place in Punjab in comparison with other states? UK = If my memory serves me correct, Punjab was pulling in 2% whereas Haryana was pulling in 23% (due to the strategic advantage of proximity to Delhi as well as multi-national organisations preferring to invest in a part of India that they are sure will always remain a part of India and which has been more politically stable than Punjab since 1980). ITL = Are the average Punjabi's being taxed at a higher rates when compared to other states? UK = Federal taxes are the same throughout India but individual states do have the right to tax (for example only) local alcohol sales at a higher rate in one state than another, as far as I understand. The Anandpur Sahib Resolution was bang on correct in outling discrimination from Indira which affected Punjab. Nowadays, many states actually support the main thrust of the Anandpur Sahib resolution which was calling merely for a greater degree of federalism within India. India cooked this into Khalistan to arouse Hindutva support for herself. But times have changed and rather than focussing on Khalistan as a first objective, the waiving of Punjab's state debts incurred between 1980-1997 should be focussed along with implementation of most of the Anandpur Sahib resolution. Shamshere = Or it could be the fact that the youth are getting lazier and people are spending beyond their means. Also Punjab is one of the most alcoholic states not just in India but the world. UK = I totally agree with you that the above factors certainly play a big part and we must address those issues. Shamshere = You seem to blame everything on the government and Hindus. UK = Previous Congress governments especially under Indira+Rajiv had an undeniably big hand behind the problems today. I don't think anybody can much blame the 800million or so innocent poor Hindu's who try to feed themselves on 20 rupees a day. Shamshere = It's just like the blacks who keep on going on about slavery and use it as an excuse to explain their situation. UK = Slavery is the root cause of virtually all the problems within Disapora African origin communities. Your logic as outlined in the above sentence would lead us to believe that India's Dalits are responsible for their own misery and problems today - which we all know not to be true. Shamshere = Sikhs in Punjab need to sort themselves out. Outsiders don't want to invest in Punjab due to the threat of militancy, even though it is small. UK = Totally agreed Shamshere = Yet you are always going on about Khalistan and militancy It seems like you want your cake and you want to eat it. UK = Totally agreed, naaray for Khalistan are hurting us economically and that's an undeniable fact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jonny Paji and Zoltan Paji i think both your points are not totally mutually exclsuive and in places both of you are correct. Jonny Paji - the Sikh work ethic (prior to the drugs+sharaab generation) was famous throughout India and clearly seen outside of Punjab in Sri Ganganagar, western UP and areas of Sikh concentration within Haryana. However, in the last 10 years as FDI into India has picked up markedly, I definitely feel (and the latest 2012 figures would confirm that) Haryana has overtaken Punjab by a certain margin now. Proximity to Delhi, better governance of Haryana as a flagship Congress state under Bhupinder Singh Hooda, less state indebtedness and a focus on not concentrating solely on agriculture are all part of this. There's nothing we can do about Haryana's good fortune whilst Punjab labours under state debts that were run up to pay Police that committed human rights abuses upon Sikhs. All we can do is play our own part in aiding development, education and a strong work ethic in Punjab and the rest will fall into place of its own accord (provided alcohol+drugs+foeticide can also be stopped). As you rightly say, the Haryana Jatts are worse for female infanticide than even Punjab ... so let them take those titles and let's concentrate on getting our own house in order first.

Fauja Singh is the real champ.

On a personal view i agree with the views of osingh, only Keertan should be done at Sri Darbar Sahib as is done to the day. Teh Puratan Maryada should be maintained as was given to Guru Arjan Dev ji by Waheguru (See Gurbilas Patshahi 6 and Sri Suraj Parkash for more)

and never ask a man how much he earns.

Waheguru I had to go through all my emails to find this, but I knew that when it was sent to me, i would need to use it. THEY SAY: “FILL IT AND FEEL THE DIFFERENCE”. Why Should We Read Guru Granth Sahib, Even if We Can't Understand A Single Word. This is A Beautiful Story. An old American Sikh lived on a farm in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky with his Young Grandson. Each morning Grandpa was up early, sitting at the kitchen table,reading his Guru Granth Sahib. His grandson wanted to be Just like him and tried to imitate him in every way he could. One day the grandson asked, "Grandpa! I try to read The Guru Granth Sahib just like you: but I don't understand it, and what I dounderstand, I forget as soon as I close The Granth Sahib. What good does reading the Granth Sahib do?" The grandfather quietly turned from putting coal in the stove and replied, "Take this coal basket down to the river and bring me back a basket of water." The boy did as he was told, but all the water leaked out before he got back to the house. The grandfather laughed and said, "You'll have to move a little faster next time," And sent him back to the river with the basket to try again This time the boy ran faster, but again the basket was empty before he returned home. Out of breath, he told his grandfather that it was impossible to carry water in a basket, and he went to get A bucket instead. The old man said, "I don't want a bucket of water; I want a basket of water. You're just not trying hard enough," and he went out the door to watch the boy try again. At this point, the boy knew it was impossible, but he wanted to show his grandfather that even if he ran as fast as he could, the water would leak out before he got back to the house. The boy again dipped the basket into river and ran hard, but when he reached his grandfather, the basket was again empty. Out of breath, he said, " See Grandpa, it's Useless!" "So you Think it is Useless?" The old man said, "Look at the Basket." “The boy looked at the BASKET and for the first time realized that the BASKET was different. It had been transformed from a Dirty Old Coal Basket and was now clean, inside and out. "Son, that's what happens when you read Guru Granth Sahib. You Might Not Understand or Remember Everything, But When You Read it, you Will Be Changed, inside and out. “That is the work of Waheguru in our lives"

The bigger question is, understanding the message and vidiya contained within path and baani and applying it to your daily life this is the true value. Paath is not magic you won't gain anything repeating words you don't understand parrot fashion. Analyse baani and apply the teachings then you will see benefit.

Before we look at Gurbani we need to understand the Uthanka (situation) creating the emergence of Gurbani. The bachans in this situation were the test of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, to ALL the Sikhs when Guru Maharaj was looking for the successor to himself. Guru Sahib tested the Sikhs in many ways and they in turn all failed the tests reducing the potential candidates for Guruship to Bhai Lehna. Even Baba Buddha Ji, failed one of these tests, but the Bani in this instant is saying that the Sikhs failed to obey the Guru, in his testing of them, it is telling us that they failed to obey the Guru's bachan, in failing the tests he provided. Only Bhai Lehna obeyed all the way through, no matter how difficult or absurd the test was the Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave. The Sikhs didnt give up Guru Ji as their Guru, just becasue they failed. They didnt pick and mix any of the Guru's bachan in the sense you mean, the Sikhs of the Guru just couldnt pass all the tests he gave, except Bhai Lehna. All the Sikhs who failed still called themselves Sikhs of the Guru, just as today, I fail the Guru's test, but still I regard the Guru as my Guru. And also regarding the " disregarding of the bachan and still call yourself a Sikh" , do you know about Satta and Balwand, and what they did, yet Guru Ji has honoured them eternally by allowing them a place in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The verse refers as I have explained above, to the Sikhs who were unable to pass the test of Guru Maharaj. The shabad of Bhai Gurdas is saying that, that one's status does automatically guarantee anything, the same message that Guru Ji gave th Brahmans and Siddhs. The followers of Baba Sri Chand are the followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Baba Sri Chand had no other Guru, than his beloved father. For further understanding of this shabad, I will recommend the readers to go to www.gurmatveechar.com and look in the folder of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, where he has done larivar katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and look in Ang 966 and And 967.

Sikhism recommends an active life in which family has a great role to play. Life of a householder is the best institution to fulfil the Sikh ideal of contributing to the development of human society. Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism stressed the importance of the "way of the householder" as the ideal pattern of life for the seeker of liberation, rejecting the ascetic alternative. He himself lead a family life, was married and went onto have children and an extended family who performed very well the tasks expected of them in society. All his successors upheld the same ideal of normal family life, expressing it in their own lives as well as in their teachings. The third Guru, Amar Das (1479–1574) proclaimed: "Family life is superior to ascetic life in sectarian garb because it is from householders that ascetics meet their needs by begging" (AG, p. 586). http://www.sikhiwiki..._of_family_life

And even more for the pretenders and the believers of fairy tales Guru Gobind Singh Sahib got several books of Hindu mythology (Chandi Charitra, Krishanawtar, Ramawtar, Chaubisawtar) translated into Punjabi not with a purpose of worshipping these so-called gods and goddesses but in order to expose them. These so-called gods and goddesses are figures of fiction. They seem to be, in fact, strange persons e.g. jealous of each other, political, diplomatic, conspiracy making feudal. They do not seem to be godly in any manner. Besides, Guru Sahib, in unequivocal words, asked the Sikhs to reject them. In these mythological works there are some ballads of chivalry, bravery, which Guru sahib wanted to narrate in order to invoke spirit of fearlessness and Righteousness among the Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib said; I do not worship Ganesha I do not ever worship Krishan or Vishnu I do not consider them even as such (gods) I concentrate only on the feet of the Almighty (Krishanavtar) Since I have found a place in Your feet (O Almighty), I don't even look at any one else Ram, Rahim, Puran, Quaran tell a lot but I don't even bother for them Simritis, Shastras, Vedas, explain different things but I do not consider them of any worth O Almighty! by Your Grace I have learnt it all from Your Word (Ramavtar) http://www.sikhmarg..../The-Sikhs.html

This Shabad is not just telling us to not worship Krishna in physical form, but in any form. Neither is the shabad saying Krishna just fell to physical death. But died spiritually because he could not get rid of the ego( Dasam Bani tells us this). Again magic tricks are being pulled to cover the truth from others eyes. Atma never dies, but spiritually a person can die (remember what Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Maharaj said!!!). Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj explains in katha that don't let the relationship of you and the Guru go bad with the metaphor of milk and water. When it goes bad then you can't bring it back. Hence it is refered to as spiritual death in this life. Maybe in the next lives a person's atma can get mukti, but not this life. So yes a person can spiritually die. In the way this group wants to say Krishna was an avtar of God, We can say in the same way the criminal who raised his kids in a moral manner and taught others about righteous living, but trafficked drugs for a living is an avtar of God. He had good points about him like Krishna, but ultimately he was under the control of the 5 vices. In this sense everything is an avtar of God. Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj sends everyone down to do 'their' work. Only difference between Krishna and the criminal is that Krishna was sent to spread dharma, where Akal Purakh is worshipped, instead Krishna got others to worship him. Again i will stress stick to Gurbani and leave these fairy tales people tell behind. One example of these fairy tales is about Sri Chand being liberated after coming to Gurmat. How do we know it is a fairy tale because Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars tells us Sri Chand did not recieve mukhti. One excuse many so called scholars make here is that they say Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani, but want to go against these Vaars by saying Sri Chand was liberated. If Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani understanding, then the Vaars are eternal and beyond time, which means they don't change or someone can say something changed after the Vaars were written. A quick remimder...........Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj was about to put Bhai Sahib's Vaars in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, but out of humility Bhai Sahib said don't. Again fairy tales don't pass the test of Gurbani.

Sikhs don't renunciate their lives

Beautiful painting of devte coming to pay respects to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji : http://www.manglacharan.com/2010/11/guru-nanak-avatarpurb-katha-baba.html To further advance the discussion, n30 paaji, can you please further explain this line from Sarbloh Granth please? ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼੍ਵਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਲ੍ਯਿੋ ਸ਼ੁਭ ਵੰਸ਼ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨਾ Sri Guru Nanak is Parmeshvar, taking 'Avatar' in the highest and auspicious lineage [bedi]. - Manglacharan Puran [aka Sarbloh Granth], page 489, Vol. 2 What does the Bedi clan have to do with this? I will listen to the katha later.

while we wait for replies, just butting in to say how about those people wearing Dastars at the opening ceremony eh? :khalsa: go canada and about ur question, im not sure many people would give u a number, for some, its personal , they like keeping it to themselves.

Don't get me started on miss pooja.

Speaking from traditional gurmat stand point- I wish there was any sugar coat way of putting this forward. But it appears there isn't.. After decades of de-marganlization and demonization of traditional gurmat concept and those who uphold it, its about time people rise against "protestant version of sikhi", i m not talking about traditions here but mainly talking about sanctity of Vahiguroo theological concept reduced to mere abhramic verison of God. Elitist superamist ideology came and hijacked gurmat- started super imposing its own view (Victorian protestant thought) on Gurmat and tried shoving Gurmat to tunnel (but maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in to tunnel), traditions are seperate story (another painful chapter), but whole theological definition of God(Vahiguroo) was changed from beautiful divine serene- sargun, shakta-shakti intertwined with nirgun chaitan- advait gurmat metaphysical concept to western/christian idea of God who is-'fearful angry','wrathful', 'who is confined to its adobe who gives naam jhapi to his followers upon arrival where he resides before inspecting his/her uniform' 'full of partiality'- accepting the passport/issuing visa to only those who have - kes/ki, kanga, kirpan, kachera, kara' along with all sarbloh- rest billions of jiv atma were demanded to go back in this earth take birth, follow this form otherwise all souls are naturally doomed in (birth and death cycle) until they take this form. And God who is only and only confined to "naam shabad" not sargun, nirgun, naam shabad, gyan saroop-advait (Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap), God who only cares about- 'Vahiguroo dhuni', sas grass naam dridh', so so much these elitist superamist try changing vahiguroo to vahguru - Gurmantar, so it matches with their robotic sound resosance- their version of shabad surat marg , they were staunchly against all other mantra (forget about outside mantra, but were staunchly against all the mantra found in gurbani itself!!!!), which provides profound expereince of divine such as- ikongkar, Ongkar, satnaam, ikongkar satgurparsad, Gobinde Mukande Udhare Aparaie Hariang Kariang Nirname Akame, Aad Gureh Nameh Jugad Gureh Nameh Satguru Nameh Sri Gurdev Nameh, these superamist refuse to matha taikh to sri guru granth sahib sargun saroop written in pad ched form (let alone saints lol) and refuse to take parsad just like pandits from fellow gursikh who has vahiguroo jot in him, called anyone who disagree with them- anti panthic, rss, congress, evil snatan, manmatiya, manmukh. So yeah off course, according to these superamist eltist - only sikh is allowed in sachkhand, hell not even sikhs but only their tribal beleif- they don't even consider nirmale, sevapanthis, udasi sikhs, they all call them - kache, pillaie, dhillaie snantan hindus- hell if sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar gave them darshan with seli topi(one of relics at fort, kartarpur), they will probably knock maharaj topi off and put dummala with aad chand on instead of maharaj divine sargun darshan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So yeah i have every reason to be here present traditional views on sachkhand, after all traditional gurmat is de-marganalized/demonized and hijacked by eltist superamist. I refuse to sit here and listen to their "revisionist victorian protestant version of Sikhi".!!!!!!!!!!!!!

osingh veer, i have already discussed your understanding or jatha's view with Bijla Singh in detail around label of satguru and fun game of semantics behind it. People can research it from past discussion or vichars and come up with their conclusion. I stand by traditional gurmat advait- Ikgongkar- nirgun gyan chaitan sarabvyapak saroop (atma-paratma) saroop of satguru nanak dev ji and sargun saroop of satguru nanak dev ji which cannot be confined or claim by protestant Sikhs to claim superamacy!!!!! ** already tried playing humpy dumpty game of semantics around satguru label on this forum and other forums..i have decided to move on and let readers decide** Gurmat is anadi!!!! Gurmat is anadi.mp3

WJKK WJKF , I was in a similar situation where i wanted to grow my Dhara but my dad was drinking at the time and used to advise me to do it later and that i am too young. Maharaj Kirpa i started to really get into Bani and keep good sangat. My Dad saw such a massive change in me to the point where i even gave up arguing with him when he was drunk, actually i used to be extra nice to him when he was drunk lolll ... After keeping 100% faith in ardas to maharaj a couple of years down the line my Dad has given up Drinking and eating meat also grown his dhara 2. He has totally changed .. waheguru !!! What i am trying to say is don't be angry with your dad even though this a natural reaction. Keep faith in your ardas and i fully believe maharaj will do Kirpa on your dad. WJKK WJKF !!!

Totally understand you when it comes to Muslims not understanding that concept. Though I accept that different religions have different experiences of God, I fail to understand how it is possible for a Muslim (just an example) who has reached Sachkhand to even remain a Muslim. As per my understanding, he would have rejected the basic belief of Islam that 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Prophet', the Qur'an as the final revelation onto humanity, and that there will be a day of judgement. According to Gurbani souls are judged by Dharam Rai, on a continuous basis as opposed to the Islamic view that bodies would be resurrected and judged on the Day of Judgement. Gurbani is clearly from the abode of God himself. The two views are clearly in conflict with each other and it would be impossible for a Muslim (who has reached Sachkhand) to remain a Muslim if he realises the truth as given to us by Gurbani. However, it appears it is different if an adherent of a faith other than Sikhi through his or her karams starts to become closer to God. There is no doubt that people following other religions do very good deeds and practice great devotion to God. Perhaps this leads them to be born into Sikh households later in succeeding births or find Gursikhi later in their lives? Though this might be a separate topic. Maybe it is the case that as people progress in their spirituality as followers of other religions they realise that it may be unnecessary to maintain certain rituals in their respective religions. It seems like this was the case during the time when our Guru Sahibaan were in human body e.g. Bhai Lehna before meeting Guru Nanak Dev Ji. According to Gurbani, is it not true that no one attained God (Sachkhand, where Nirankaar resides) without Satguru Ji? Though one can come from any religious background, I fail to understand how one can offer utmost faith and devotion to Satguru Ji yet still be a follower of another religion.

gurfateh sis dont worry at all, a dream is a dream, in reality a dream is what the inner emotions hidden within us are, inside we have alot of fear and paap, we are humans, under the blanket of vikaars, u need to trust God, the dream is your unconcious mind, the unconsious mind is our true self filled with sins, when we clean it we can see God but when we dont life is hell and we are dirty inside,so in order to stop such dreams u must fill your mind with goodness, the first step in lovingly meditate on God , thats the most important, start with five minutes a day, and do ardas so that ur thoughts become pure, just like when there is dirty water in a pot, and the pot is left under the rain, slowly new rain will fall and the dirty water will empty, in this way our minds are full of gand, gand we didnt know about, gandh from kam krodh lobh moh and hankar, even great yogis who spend there whole life in discipline, who have all ridhi sihis, even they cant clean their vikaars, our inside is only made clean by prema bhagti- loving God, so love God, meditate on him, love him,tell urself he is here, when u feel weak like gusa is about to come or ego remember these are enemies and they will cause nuksaan (loss) so stay away do ardas not een a need for a full standing ardas just in your mind pray to guru ji and ask guru ji to protect u from bad thoughts, keep ur sangat (enviornment) pure, listen to katha by great gurmukhs like audio books by maskeen ji and by bhai vir singh ji also youtube one of my favorite kathawachks bhai harpal singh ji, read gurbani, read sikh history because every action of our gurus had a meaning ,fill ur mind with good thougts than the bad will go away, u must clean ur subconcious mind........................................dont worry about the car thing...............trust God and do path.........................all God does is good :::::::::::::::::

Shows how uneducated our government is regarding 1984 etc.

I was thinking of how he is portrayed in the Duserrah festivals. Legend says that he was as smart and cunning as 10 men. I believe that is why he is portrayed as a demon with 10 heads. Overtime, people really began to believe that he had 10 heads.

Isn't the guru God? As in waheguru, the ultimate teacher. In japji guru Nanak refers to himself in third person. He refers to God as guru.

Hindu devtas aren't god cuz they are plagued by the 5 evils, and cuz they all died. Go back to mool mantar and you will see that no Hindu devta fits the description of what God is. Gurbani shows us again and again how the devtas are flawed. Even the Hindu texts state that the devtas are not god, but rather different manifestations of the Supreme Brahman. My personal opinion is that the devtas were extraordinary people who existed in history, and achieved god-like status with Hindus. Buddha was a real person, but he is worshipped as an incarnation of Vishnu by some Hindus. Ravan is described as having 10 heads, making him as smart as 10 people. One can guess how this tall-tale developed. Sikhi is simple. 10 gurus, 1 guru granth sahib, 1 god. Everything else is irrelevant.

I agree with you pal veer ji. But just a small observation, we need to be extremely careful on that we don't confine aad guru - sri guru nanak dev ji maharaj to only anadi sargun form of Nirankar only (like some at nanaksar do)- if we do we are falling traps like some hindus have done with their avtars, we are also opening room for ultra orthodox supremacist types to hijack this divine and pure vary concept of sri guru nanak dev ji- sargun form of nirankar to play with semantics all day long. Gurmat is pure advait marg. Sargun and Nirgun (gyan of naam) are part of each other, cannot be seperated. Most profound experience* of aad guru- Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Shabad Guru- Nirgun form (gyan saroop of naam)- advait sat chit anand chaitan parbhram Vahiguroo.!!!! *Kaival Mukhti as opposed to four types of sargun mukhti. Also singh bit off-topic but do you have any details on major vichar on sargun and nirgun of vahiguroo between baba nand singh ji maharaj and sant maharaj gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale? I know anand chamatkar ( as it was written by over zealous chela) is slightly biased on this..but any unbias analysis you can direct me to? I am extremely interested as to what occur in those vichars?

Many excuses are being made. Gurbani is very clear cut on Krishna........Krishna cannot be worshipped in any shape or form for those who follow Gurmat. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj katha is very clear cut on Krishna...........escape Krishna (fell in kaal).....not follow Krishna. Others can believe whatever their heart desires. But Gurbani does not teach what their opinion is on this topic. Many like to call the Gurus as just Avtar of Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj and by doing so they club the Gurus in with the devis and devta. This is completely wrong and Gurbani tells us the Gurus were and are the one Lord himself. Also the Gurus were not just sargun Saroop of Maharaj. Again they are the Nirgun Saroop of Maharaj. Gurbani tells us over and over Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj and the Gurus are one and the same(no difference in any form or without form, yet we have people going against the basics of Sikhi. Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj took form as the Gurus and now we have Sikhs trying to differentiate between the one. These individuals can only see as far as Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj lets them. Gurbani is against worshipping anyone expect Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj tells in one katha that Krishna got others to worship him by making stones of him. Which saroop did Krishna make this mistake in? I guess criminal lawyers have another way to get their client off the hook now....he was in a different saroop.....LOL Some like to add Maharaj after Krishna's name and Gurbani tells us that Krishna is a insect. This discussion really goes back to Sri Japji Sahib. So many are acting, but they are only acting with Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj's will. Krishna instead of realizing that Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj is acting, got egotistic and said i am acting, hence worship me. ONCE the "I" comes in, then you are done. Kaal will drag you by the hair and throw you to the wolves. Read Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj's Bani very carefully. Bhagat ji is down on his knees saying you act and cause me to act, i can't do anything, bless your mercy upon me. Bhagat ji lived Sri Japji Sahib and won the game of life. Kabir was no more, there was only Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj after Bhagat ji united. Krishna held on to his title, acts, and desires. Such shakti was blessed upon Krishna, but he got caught up in it and lost. Think it as those who are blessed with so much wealth in this world, yet they don't even think about thanking Maharaj in their dreams. They have all the time in the world to do bhagti, but they are stuck in the maya of wealth. The wealth is their shakti(maya). Dhan Dhan Dhan Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj, who keeps Sikhs joined to Gurbani and teaches how to bow to Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj in all his true forms. Dhan Dhan Satguru and his True Sants. Stick to the basics.....Gurbani............then devi and devta worshippers can't trick anyone with their magic shows. Many like to throw in all these different concepts, but at the end of the day they are only their to confuse and lead you the wrong way.

Has been discussed before and Gurbani tells us that Krishna could not escape Kaal. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj in his Katha of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj says a Sikh needs to escape Krishna. Many of these new generation Sikhs are confused and can`t find the balance here. So they end up making some loud comments that hold no truth and then end up worshipping at Devis and Devta feet. They read Shiv in Gurbani and they end up bowing at Shiva feet. They lack the understanding of Gurbani on this complex topic.

Why not give them credit? Again I reiterate cross the border from Fatehabad to say Mansa and head on toward Abohar and you can see which area has had better governance. There are Sikhs on either side yet the Haryana side has better infrastructure? Why? The locals did not build it themselves, it has been built and maintained by the state sarkar. They have excellent bypass roads in Haryana which help reduce congestion and avoid the need for ugly flyovers. There are Punjabis in areas of UP who are prosperous but the infrastructure is poor. Thats a state sarkar issue right? A few years ago I went by road to Pakistan and again the infrastructure on the Pak side of Punjab is very poor. That again is the fault of the state sarkar. They had a head start on east Punjab but have failed to develop or maintain what was superior infrastructure (at the time of partition). Besides the motorway that the North Koreans built in exchange for nuclear know-how they have nothing.

I totally disagree with the point made. I have been travelling to Punjab and Haryana since the mid 1980s when Gurgaon was still a little pind. Having relatives in both these states allows you to see who is actually doing well. Lots of Sikhs live in northern Haryana in districts bordering Malwa. These areas were once owned by powerful jagirdars. Punjabis bought this land and set about fermenting the green revolution in Haryana. Through their hard work they have uplifted themselves out of poverty. Comparing my relatives living standards in Fatehabad district of Haryana and restidar in Jalandhar, I can honestly say that the ones living in Haryana have always been better off. They bought Maruti cars in the early 90s when Mamma Jalandharia was still riding in Basti Baba Khel on his Bajaj chetak, they had colour televisions in the mid 80s when Jassa Jalandharia was still watching Mahabharat on his Salora black and white 12 inch. They have had air conditioning and diesel gen. sets since the early 90s whereas the Jalandharia have only started buying inverters. Most of the bling houses you see in Punjab are built with money sent back by illegal immigrants in Europe, the bling houses in Haryana are built through farming generated income by locals. The only backward areas are the water logged southern districts of Haryana. I doubt very much you have ventured to areas such as Fatehabad, Hissar and Sirsa district. Nothing backward about these areas. In fact we regulalry cross into southern Punjab districts such as Sangrur, Mansa etc and you instantly notice a drop in living standards.

I agree, some of the jathedars start doing stories of devte that have no correlation to the Gurbani on the Punjabi TV katha channel. Saw this when I was in Punjab. From Harmandir Sahib - only Gurbani kirtan should be played as it is.

Katha was not being done at darbar sahib even at guru ji's time. it was done only once by Guru Arjan Dev Ji himsellf, on the first parkash of Guru Granth Sahib JI. After that Hukumnama Katha was done in Manji Sahib Diwan Hall which is infront of Langar Hall building and since then it is done there only and a lot of sangat gathers there to listen to the katha. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji also used to do katha there. And who says sangat just matha tek and goes back from darbar sahib. Everyday sangat can be seen sitting in parkarma of darbar sahib and listenning to the kirtan from amrit vela till late night and enjoying the heavenly experience. its a different story if someone just go there for a picnic, but if someone goes there with full devotion, one definitely takes a lot back with him and even i ve seen some chardfikala singhs and singhnis who left there home and stay in the parkarma and do seva since last 30 years. So never say sangat has nothing much to do there, if someone wants to listen to kirtan he/she can listen in darbar sahib, dhadhi and kavishri vaars are sung infront of Akal Takht Sahib, Katha is done at Manji Sahib. If someone wants to do do seva, he/she can go to langar hall or the seva of whole parkarma is done at amrit vela. You have everything to do there, it all depents on your shardha. Once you step into Harmandir Sahib you are in Sachkhand and that experience can never be matched with anthing else. So never say u don't experience Sikhi in Harmandir Sahib, it is the centre of Sikhism. Once Rabindranath Tagore was on India Tour, he went to all places, when he came to Kashmir, the guide with him said, this is the heaven on earth. When Tagore came to Harmandir Sahib, he said that if anywhere there is a heaven on earth, its here. If i ve said anything wrong, please forgive me. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Fateh.

I may be wrong so bhul chuk maaf. But I feel that a lot of katha from many Kathavachiks is opinionated and in Harmandir Sahib only the truth must be heard which is Gurbani. But if there used to be katha in Guru Ji's time then I ask for forgiveness for my above statement.

Background I was born in lower middle class family, father used to drink a lot, finishing most of his income, mother was a great housewife, even in such situation managed to bring up five of us, i was the youngest. So, my life was just like any other kid, playing games, have fun etc. Until the age of 14, i knew very little abt Sikhi. This changed gradually when my elder took Amrit. I dunno wat inspire him, but the day of the amrit Sanchar, he walked around 4miles to the Gurdwara Sahib cause his bicycle broke down on the way. My brother then started doin Satsang n use to take me with him for Rehrass prog. He started reading Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s jeewan n use to convey what he read to the local Naujawans during the deewan. He was the only amritdhari in the family. I got inspired a little and Guruji started to guide me. Use to follow my brother in law to do seva in a local Gurdwara. But at this time, i still use to eat meat and didn’t know Gurmukhi. My brother inspired my mother n they use to do Nitnem together. I still remember when i was half awake sleeping i use to hear beautiful Gurbani n especially Anand Sahib the 30+ Pauris. The change The change came gradually, inspired by my brother and when i got to know a Singh that my brother used to meet. He was from Damdami Taksal n had a lot of knowledge. I was 19 then. One day before going overseas for practical training of my studies (i got a scholarship from a major company) after listening to the Singh in a camp, i decided to start practising Sikhi, i stop eating meat n started doin nitnem from a Romanised Gutka while listening to the audio Nitnem recording. The next time i came back i learned the 35 alphabet of Gurmukhi n their sounds from the Singh. Then went back for practical n use to spend a lot of time learn Gurmukhi, started reading simple Sakhis n the more advance books on Sikhism. After one year, got an opportunity to go to Punjab with the same Singh, went to many historical Gurdwaras n had the blessing of Amrit at Damdami Taksal, Mehta. This was the most beautiful moment of my life. Sangat of Mahapurkh After one year, Baba Thakur Singh came to our town, went over to settle some immigration issues for Babaji’s stay. Babaji was having his Ishnaan, i just stood at a side, after ishnaan Singhs was massaging Babaji’s body, at that moment i was just thinking in my mind that those Singhs are so blessed that they r doin seva of a Brahm Giani, n i would be so lucky if i’ve got the opportunity. As i was thinking Babaji called me and ask a Singh to step aside, told me to do the seva, i was so amazed of Babaji anterjamta. Had a great time of having Babaji’s sangat. I can stil can remember those days spend wif Babaji n Singhs was like living in Sachkhand, wat a great aura around Babaji, those who did Babaji’s darshan certainly felt it. Another time when i was finishing my studies, Babaji with Jatha came for a day where i was studying. Finals were starting next day (the toughest paper of all was on the next day), i decided to go and meet Babaji even though there were a lot of studies to be done (i’m kind of last minute guy). Babaji asked about studies n asked me to follow them to a Singh’s house, i got worried as i’ve not prepared for the exam the next day as it was getting late in the afternoon. Followed Babaji n had Langgar that Babaji serve themselves, n before going back, Babaji gave a lot of blessings n like a current flowing inside the body the feeling was extra ordinary. Was feeling like a ‘mast’ after tht, the worries of exam disappeared n the next day when i sat for the exam, many won’t believe but i was holding the pen but it was moving on its own!, i was confused myself not understanding wat’s happening. I finished the paper in half the time n saw other were still struggling. After marking the papers, my lecturer called me n told that i did perfect for that paper n he was surprised as he knew that i was not capable of achieving that. My friend that was smarter than i that i used to learn from failed that paper n had to re-sit for it. Santhiya Before looking for a job, started doin Santhiya of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from the Singh, followed him back to Punjab n continued Santhiya n did Yatra. During that time use to do Santhiya early morning n repeat it on my own twice a day. At that time i became so engrossed in Gurbani. One early morning i had the Darshan of Guru Arjun Sahibji in my dream, really cant explain the kautak but it was just miraculous. Also got to know my past life and many wonderful things happened. Nitnem From there onwards, got so much motivated that started doin more Japji Sahibs along with basic Nitnem. Use to do ten Japji Sahibs and Sehaj Paths. Got a job that required daily travelling, started listening to Katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Sant Giani Gurbachan Singhji in the car. Continued for two years and completed the Katha. Well for those who wish to obtain gyan n have all their questions answered listen to the Katha. After few years started doin 25 Japji Sahibs along with Sukhmani Sahib n then added Asa Dhi Vaar in the morning. The greatest moment was when one day after morning Nitnem, was having a nap in half conscious state, saw Baba Thakur Singh, i was so happy at that time as this was few years after Babaji went to Sachkhand, Babaji hugged me and ask me to follow them, without thinking i agreed saying ‘chaloji’. At that moment Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji apperared and told Baba Thakur Singh that this singh has done a lot of paap (sins) in the past lives, how can we take him?, Santji after some time said nevermind we do ardass in Guruji’s hejuri, i remembered Santji stood before Guru Granth Sahib Ji and did ardass for me n read Hukumnama. Then Baba Thakur Singhji told smiling that not now. That was the happiest day of my life as i knew my past sins has been pardoned, thanks to Mahapurkhs. Had opportunity to do Sangat of Baba Santokh Singh ji Joti Saroop. Had many amazing moments with Babaji as well. Sikhism Sikhi has given me everything, i can’t be thankful enough. Guruji has granted every single thing i ever wanted. The path of Sikhi is full of ups and downs, i have gone thru many, failing tests of Gursikhi (ya.....Guruji do tests every Sikh) but i know that was for me to remain low as ego just take seconds to destroy many years of Kemayee. Whatever it is i know Guruji did it for the best. Only thing now is that i can leave this world as a Gursikh and wif Guruji’s kirpa be useful to Sikh Panth, pls do Ardass for me to achieve this. Sorry for the lengthy post. Fateh Khalse Ki.

Main thing we need to concentrate on to get our sikh youth back in education, but not for them to come abroad but for them to work in punjab and work in public sector. RSS is not some banana republic group (never under-estimate your opponent, study them from all angles instead of blowing the usual trumpet oh- they are ought to get us!!..gee- no wonder, tell us something which we don't know!!) they all have great strategy/ projection for next 30 years of punjab in place to remove sikhs or other minorities from public sector jobs, its full take over India from all aspects!! just like sunni w a habis sullehs do....!!...they keep exploiting sikhs as they know sikhs in nature (thanks to punjabi tribal mentality) are hot headed ones...on one hand, they keep funneling alcohol and drugs in punjab so youths cannot take education- cannot get back in public sector jobs and on another hand, they keep exploiting situations spourting radhaswamis/nirankari deras everywhere in punjab, so there is an divide and hostility and which make sikhs look like extremist.!! Education is key in punjab...awakening can come from people of Punjab once they all realize "election" is more than just free alcohol party for everyone!! Sikhs need to take a step back, study them fully and form an long term strategy in punjab (learn how to play chess games with these guys) - proxy war instead of "usual" rhetoric speech/panthic.org guerilla photo war journalism..!!

these bollywood actors are scumbags that would do anything to make a buck remember the news when sanjay dutt would be working on a movie that would make kp gill look like a hero now hes working on a movie about the battle of Saragarhi these people have no principles its all about the money and the movie is practiculy garunteed to be full propaganda makeing the singhs look like patriotic indians i remember watching a bollywood movie called border there was a scene when a hindu soldier runs into the burning house of a muslim to retrieve his quran before it is burned by the fire the muslim then says something along the lines of "even though im a muslim and your a hindu you risked your life to save my quraan" and the hindu responds by dramatically saying " this is what hindus have been doing for thousands of years risking there own lives to save others"

I see biharis trying to be Punjab. Sad. Funny how Punjabis can't go to any other part of India and buy land but everyone can come to Punjab and buy as much land as they want. Institutionalized cleansing of a people in Punjab (namely Sikhs) and changing the voter bank to seal in the deal. The movie is trying to paint Singhs a certain way in hopes to change up the youth and disassociate from their parents. Media's a very powerful tool in controlling masses. Title is "Son Of A Sardar" not "Sardar" because he isn't a sardar. If you want to see a picture of a Sardar, well here you are:

I was disturbed when he said "jeh sardar na hothe toh jokes kis peh banate"

Shahmukhi script is not an ideal script for writing Punjabi. Recently this was shown up as when the prisoner Surjit Singh was to be released his name was confused with Sarbjit Singh as in Shahmukhi script they are written virtually the same. Also my dad who is used to Shahmukhi script says that many words can be confused with other words as Shahmukhi script does not have the letters to represent some of the sounds of Punjabi.

Urdu, Hindi, farsi, Sanskrit, Braj Basa etc should also be taught but as minor subject courses to get extra credits if it is in the interest of the students. All languages are good in my opinion, even Hindi. But the status Hindi is given in Punjab is unnecessary in today's economic and education reality. Instead, English should be given that status. And Hindi along with other languages should be taught as minor courses so students are well rounded.

Today in Punjab, christian schools are considered the best because English is promoted in those schools. The only people I feel would not like to discard Hindi on the state wide level are the Hindus of Punjab because they associate Hindi with with their religion. So I don't see today's Punjab government implementing such a bold move as that can really annoy the BJP. But the Sikh schools that are privately run and operated can implement such a move. Many Sikhs all over Punjab own hundreds of schools. If they were to promote only Punjabi and English, within a few years Punjab's Sikh population can become highly educated.

Make sense..english, punjabi for worldy purpose and gurmukhi, urdu, persian, sanskrit, hindi, braj, sadhu basha and including english off course (parchar) for dharamic purpose..!!

erm firstly shut up u mug, stop with the bakwaas, please tell me WHERE i mentioned/blamed the hindus for panjabs agricultural problems? 2ndly, if u bothered 2 actually do research as to why panjab is suffering, u wud kno, panjabs got HUGE problem with cancer in its paani, due to uranium being found in it, farmer suicide because they cant pay the massive debts, coz the indian govt charges panjab the highest rates of any state, yet gives them lower rate prices in return when it comes 2 sale of crops. Also Panjabs waters have been illegally restricted, which means the farmers r digging deeper n deeper, meaning uranium is contaminating the water, which then leads 2, 1 in 3 persons in malwa area havin cancer. Then an alternative is, to use electric pumps, but then, the electricity keeps cuttin, coz panjab has 2 share its electricity with other states! If the indian govt didnt illegally steal panjabs waters, then a lot of these problems wudnt have surfaced to such great size, coz farmers wud of been able 2 deal with the demands, with easy access 2 water. Why is himachal, delhi, haryana and rajastan stealing panjabs water, when they already get water from elsewhere? Why is panjab, a land of five rivers being touted as place that cud b desert land in the future? U tell me which of these problems has 2 with sikhs being lazy n not wanting 2 work in the farmlands? Even if sikhs dont wana do farming, biharis/UP ppl have been fillin in the gaps for the last 10 yrs, and still no improvement? No one here is playin the lazy or victim card, but pathetic bandhars like u, who r pro-india, will find any excuse 2 stick up for indian govt and cuss the khalistanis, who speak with facts. no one is disputing panjabis alcohol problems and general lazy work ethic nowadays either. LOL, also u say the threat of militancy is wat keeps outsiders from investin in panjab? watever mate, where is the threat of militancy?

Since Haryana is brought to this topic, let us please make it clear that the only reason why Haryana is doing well is NOT because it is better governed or because it's people are more industrious. It is in the good fortune of Haryana that they have Gurgaon city. That city has also progressed only because of it's close proximity to New Delhi. Many foreign companies want to invest in or near New Delhi. Since New Delhi has lack of space, they invest in cities that are near Delhi such as Gurgaon(Haryana) and Noida(UP). The land is cheaper in these cities than in Delhi. Other than Gurgaon, the rest of Haryana is so backward that it is like stepping back a 100 years. Some villages do not even have electricity. Gurgaon is the only reason why Haryana appears to be better than Punjab and Gurgaon's success has nothing to do with Haryana itself. We think Punjab's sex ratio is bad, Haryana's is worse. They also top the list in honour killings in India. Caste is a bigger problem in Haryana than it is in Punjab.

Time to talk something more practical rather than venting out on this forum. As i said before foul language is act of weakness which you people are doing. When you cannot challenge Dhunda, you start abusing him

@jonny If calling someone a dog, an <banned word filter activated> or faggot is not foul language for you then i seriously suggest you you reading Guru Granth Sahib before commenting on Dasam Granth. I dont care what Dhunda says coz i am clear in my mind about the message of Guru Sahib. It does not make a difference to me if u think i am his supporter. If Dhunda is wrong then you are also in the same shoes by abusing him out of your frustration. What did you guys have actually done to stop Dhunda except spitting venom on this forum. Why dont u start something bigger than what dhunda has been preaching. You yourself dont know what to docoz you are too ignorant. You ppl are suggesting names of other scholars who should do something. When he was here in canada how many of you went to him to have a discussion and challenge him?

@ beginner I dont take offensive for anything. People who using foul language is an act of cowardness and weakness. Its the frustration on their part that they are not able to do anything. Coz in reality they can only abuse. I am not here to back dhunda. My only point is that using bad language is never justified even if you are using for your enemy. It shOws the lack of basic understanding of Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Regardless to whoever says whatever, you people should be ashamed of yourself for using such a derogatory Language.You call yourself "sikhs", ? Read gurbani folks "nanak fikkey boleye, tan man fikka hoye". Dont abue other person just because your opinion differs from him

Obviously, I have no idea how old/mature you are, but suggesting that people should be killed because they put forward a viewpoint that you disagree with - is highly irresponsible. We are not Al Qaeda or the Taliban.