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If an African tells us he’s African and not Jamaican, does it mean he hates Jamaicans? If a Jamaican tells us he’s Jamaican and not African, does it mean he hates Africans? If Japanese told us he was Japanese and not Chinese, does it mean he hates Chinese? If a Chinese tells us he’s Chinese and not Japanese, does it mean he hates Japanese? If a Pakistani tells you he is Pakistani and not Indian does that mean he hates Indians? If a Hindu tells you that he is Hindu and not Muslim, does that mean he hates Muslims? If a Hindu tells you he’s a Hindu and not a Sikh, does that mean he hates Sikhs? If a Christian tells you he’s a Christian and not Jewish, does that mean he hates the Jews? If a Jew tells you he is a Jew and not Christian does that mean he hates Christians? If a Muslim tells you he is a Muslim and not a Jew does that mean he hates Jews? If a Jew tells you he is a Jew and not a Muslim, does that mean he hates Jews? If an Austrian told us he was an Austrian and not German, does that mean he hates Germans? If a German tells us he is German and not Austrian, does that means he hates Austrians? If a New Zealander told us he was from New Zealand and not Australia, does that mean he hates Australians? If an Australian told us was an Australian and not from New Zealand, does that mean he hates New Zealanders? If a Sikh tells you he is a Sikh and not a Hindu, does that mean he hates Hindus? If a Sikh tells you he is a Sikh and not a Muslim, does that mean he hates Muslims?

WJKK, WJKF We are all aware of the terrible tradgedy that happened last week in the Oak Creek, Wisconsin Gurdwara. However, as terrible as that was, I know that I am not alone when I say that I know some good can come out of it. Yesterday, we saw our first potential positive. The NYPD has long had a turban ban on its members, discouraging many Sikhs from joining the police force. Yesterday though, Sikh advocacy groups met with the Chief Financial Officer of NYC, Comptroller John C. Liu. He wrote a letter to the Mayor of NYC, Mr. Bloomberg, urging him to overturn the current ban. You can read the whole letter here http://unitedsikhs.o...tterToMayor.pdf In light of this, I have created a petition to gather support for this letter. https://www.change.o...eard-and-turban On this board we have talked a lot about making a difference. Now is the time, where we can step up and make that happen. Because in the end, we make the difference. Not some guy they bring onto CNN or BBC. Also, it would really really help, if after signing the petition, you would send an email to the following Sikh advocacy groups, asking them to support the petition and send it out to their email list. Because even if they just get 100 emails saying the same thing, I am sure it would really encourage them to support it. Sikh Coalition - http://sikhcoalition...t-us/contact-us SALDEF - http://org2.democrac...Up.jsp?key=2045 United Sikhs - unitedsikhs-usa@unitedsikhs.org I have even prepared a sample, all you have to do is copy and paste this into the subject field. Hello, In light of Comptroller Liu's recent letter to Mayor Bloomberg urging him to overturn the current beard and turban ban in the NYPD, I urge you to look at this petition supporting the letter, and send it out to your mailing list. It would greatly help in the cause. https://www.change.o...eard-and-turban Sincerely, (Your Name) The NYPD is one of the largest police forces in America, and here we have the oppurturnity to change the face of Sikhs all across North America. Please Brothers and Sisters, step up, and make a difference. It only takes 5 minutes, and it is the least we can do to honor the memory of those killed in Wisconsin

A hindu friend of mine once remarked SGGS is written in praise of Rama and Krishna - here are two shabads to debunk this myth - first is by bhagat namdev and second by Guru Nanak . ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. ||Pause|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਲੋਧੇ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ਖਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥ O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields. ਲੈ ਕਰਿ ਠੇਗਾ ਟਗਰੀ ਤੋਰੀ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਜਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥੧॥ Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. ||1|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull. ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥ In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. ||2|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥ ; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3|| ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥ The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥ Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7|| ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Aasaa, First Mehl: ਪਉਣੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੀ ਸਭ ਧਰਤੀ ਜਲ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ He created the air, and He supports the whole world; he bound water and fire together. ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਦਹਸਿਰਿ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਕਟਾਇਆ ਰਾਵਣੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ The blind, ten-headed Raavan had his heads cut off, but what greatness was obtained by killing him? ||1|| ਕਿਆ ਉਪਮਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਖੀ ਜਾਇ ॥ What Glories of Yours can be chanted? ਤੂੰ ਸਰਬੇ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ You are totally pervading everywhere; You love and cherish all. ||1||Pause|| ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਨਥਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ You created all beings, and You hold the world in Your Hands; what greatness is it to put a ring in the nose of the black cobra, as Krishna did? ਕਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਜੋਰੂ ਕਉਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥ Whose Husband are You? Who is Your wife? You are subtly diffused and pervading in all. ||2|| ਨਾਲਿ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਰਦਾਤਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਭਾਲਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗਇਆ ॥ Brahma, the bestower of blessings, entered the stem of the lotus, with his relatives, to find the extent of the universe. ਆਗੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕੰਸੁ ਛੇਦਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੩॥ Proceeding on, he could not find its limits; what glory was obtained by killing Kansa, the king? ||3|| ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੇ ਖੀਰੁ ਮਥਿਆ ਹੋਰਿ ਭਖਲਾਏ ਜਿ ਅਸੀ ਕੀਆ ॥ The jewels were produced and brought forth by churning the ocean of milk. The other gods proclaimed "We are the ones who did this!" Further there are other sloks like "Devi deva poojiye kya mango kya dey" "thakur chor cheri ko dhyave" Here is another shabad by bhagat namdev again ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox, ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1|| ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥ I take only the Name of the One Lord. ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause|| ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ That man who chants “Shiva, Shiva“, and meditates on him, ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2|| ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ One who worships the Great Goddess Maya ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3|| ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ You are called the Primal Goddess. ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥ At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|| ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥ Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend. ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥੫॥੨॥੬॥ Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||

This thread has been very rewarding for those of us trying to understand caste amongst Sikhs, what I'm getting so far is that it has: 1) a strong political component in Panjab related to politics, especially with vote mobilisation 2) works along dimensions of attempts of majority domination over minority groups in some diaspora locations (leading to attempts at independence from majority domination which translates to caste aligned Gurdwaras, overt and discreet, at ground level) 3) works on a family/individual level as a mechanism to enhance ones sense of importance over other Sikh Panjabis PS - RebelSingh, brother I'd be quite interested to hear about what you make of the rebuttal to Saka/Scythian theory that was posted earlier?? Please do share your opinion.

You're absolutely right! People like Nihal from the BCC make us feel guilty for trying to save our fellow Sikhs from being unfairly discriminated against i.e. sworn at, or spit at, or threatened, or beaten up, or even killed (as there have been many cases of Sikhs being killed due to being mistaken for Muslims). He tries to tell us that we are wrong for letting the world know that we are not Muslims. However, I dare him to even look at one of the Sikh relatives in the face whose relative had been seriously attacked or killed as a result of being mistaken for a Muslim, he wouldn't have the Guts! I say we leave it at this.... Muslims are proud to Muslims, and to be known as Muslims, and NOT Sikhs! We Sikhs are proud to be Sikhs, and to be known as Sikhs, and NOT Muslims! If anyonw in the world Let's the World know they are who they are, then that does not mean they hate anyone, they are just stating a truthful fact, and not denying their identity. Sikhs are not Muslims, just a truthful fact!

While Sikhs should tell the world they are not not Muslims or any other religion but an independent religion but at the same time that does not mean we should start to point the finger of blame at any other religion. I have noticed some Sikhs in trying to show their difference from Muslims start to overly bash and bad mouth Islam and Muslims as if that will show how truly unique the Sikhs are. That is not the Gurmat thing to do. Most Muslims living in the west are good people, I wouldn't want people do hate them. We need to follow the examples of our Gurus in every point. We need to inform non Sikhs out there who we are. Reading some of the comments by Sikhs at the comments section of news papers one can help notice how ignorant even fellow Sikhs are of Sikhi. For example, one Sikh commenter wrote Sikhism does not beleive in converting other people to Sikhism because Sikhism believes all religions are equal and lead to the same place. With such ignorance is it any wonder why Sikhs are no longer spreading the word of the Gurus to non Sikhs? They say one of the best ways to inform others of your religion is to preach it and spread it. In that case we have failed miserably. Sikhi is a unique religion. It was founded by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee who was the greatest of all. His spiritual path(Sikhi) is also the greatest path amongst paths. We Sikhs have done some great Karma in previous lifetimes to be blessed with the priceless jewel of Sikhi in this lifetime.

You guys have no idea how the media works and how to get your message across. Political correctness in these cases are okay. When you're talking about grooming and other things, then go all out and say the cold hearted truth.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj surely does tell us to use physical force in self-defense. Violence (depending how one defines it) used to oppress is what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not condone. According to you is the story of Narsingh mythical or a true event in history? Also point out which parts of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj has mythical or maya-ic elements. Are the Guru's separate from each other or are they one and the same? Also can you do veechar on what without fear and without hatred means in Sri Mool Mantar Sahib. Name one Sikh that was not a warrior in history (were the Bhagats warriors?). Was Bhai Mati Das ji not a warrior? Does a person need to do bhagti before becoming a warrior? If so, who is a ordinary Sikh and if not, then who is an ordinary Sikh? Define warrior for us in the western sense and then define warrior for us in Gurmat way. Is there a difference or are they the same?

Keep the kakkars given to you by Panj Piare. Think of kirpan as back up weapon if main tegh gets misplaced/taken etc.

I've hated going to social occasions like this. Don't drink. Don't dance. It's very boring. But it does make the idea of being like a lotus flower in a quagmire more real. I would go as per dress requirements. Up to you about tying/tucking your beard. The tie is usually only on for the early part eg dinner and most guys will have removed it by the end. Go with friend but depends on your relationship with friend. With some you can be very open and with others you still have to be careful with what you say. I would turn up with friend and then separate soon after arriving. Having someone there you know means you have someone to chat with when there's no one there you know or want to speak to. Obviously be careful with drinks. I once drank "Buck's Fizz" thinking it was orange juice that had been laid out. With these formal events, I will go if there's food. I will eat and chat with people and will "go outside for fresh air" (which I will - I find I feel like I'm suffocating at these events) and will then go home. I usually tell whomever I'm with that I'm going so there's no mass panic over a missing person. Try to remember the ideal of the lotus flower which manages to remain unsullied, naam jap whenever you feel yourself being swayed eg by scantily clad ladies. This is Maya. Show her you're not scared. Be fearless.

Please provide proof

There are some good replies here with useful ideas and with Guruji's kirpa I feel I know how to deal with the situation, so I consider my questions to be answered, thank you all. For anyone who reads this in future and is wondering why this is such an issue of discomfort for me (after all, it's just an event) I thought it's important to share with others why practising Sikhs may feel uncomfortable when placed in this situation. To appreciate the gravity of the situation, I have inserted some references to Gurbani and other sources. It's important to understand that there is no circumstance under which we have to attend these events and be subject to the allure of Maya's nest; it is we who put ourselves in this position. A Gursikh will value the virtue of Santokh, including freedom from ambition. In my personal circumstances, temptation and the greed of ambition (promoted by capitalist mentality of money-driven success) in the workplace that has eventually lead me to such a situation where I must attend a very fancy black tie/ballroom dancing event with guests who lack the high standards of morals that Gurksikhs set for themselves and who are also are critical and expectant of your obedient participation. Were I content with my a job that provides enough (with Guruji's kirpa) and not worrying about career progression, then I would never have to worry about having to face such a situation, nor would I have to worry about the consequences of not giving up my principles. I am attempting to escape the clutches of this mentality and move to a less competitive work place and job, but it will take some time and in the short term I have put myself in this situation where I must attend the event. "They hope to earn wealth; their attachment to Maya increases." (SGGSji Ang 166) "He continually chases after Maya and wealth, but even his own wealth flies away." (SGGSji Ang 307) That established, let me explain why, in my personal opinion, I as a Gursikh would seek to avoid participation in such events: 1. Attending such events and taking pleasure from them is not only a distraction from our true purpose in life, it is possibly hazerdous to God realisation. Whilst Sikhi doesn't espouse extreme asceticism (renouncing all worldly posessions) of the form of monks sitting in caves (as, escetisicm as a ritualistic endevour in itself will not help you find God), it recognises that all such physical distractions are Maya, and Maya distracts from His command. "Loving attention to the Lord and attachment to Maya are the two separate ways; all act according to the Hukam of the Lord's Command." (SGGSji Ang 87) "They are the Khalsa who remain attached to the True Naam. They are the Khalsa who break away their worldly bonds." (Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Ji) Subduing egotism, they break all their bonds; as Gurmukh, they are adorned with the Word of the Shabad." (SGGSji Ang 124) Also see point 5. 2. Dining with the unrighteous: Many Gursikhs like myself prefer to dine only in the company of other Gursikhs. "Thieves, adulterers, prostitutes and pimps, make friendships with the unrighteous, and eat with the unrighteous." (SGGSji Ang 790) 3. Avoiding the company of the faithless in order to avoid influence of immoral activities: "He never abandons humility. He forever avoids crossing paths with faithless cynics." (Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh) "Kabeer, do not associate with the faithless cynics; run far away from them. If you touch a vessel stained with soot, some of the soot will stick to you." (SGGSji Ang 1371) 4. Eating before evening prayers (a problem if you can't get any peace for prayer at the dinner event before eating): "Those who do not sing the Guru's Hymn at dawn and those who eat before doing Rehraas are punishable." (Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Ji) "That evening prayer alone is acceptable, which brings the Lord God to my consciousness. Love for the Lord wells up within me, and my attachment to Maya is burnt away." (SGGSji Ang 553) 5. One should not waste time by engaging in Maya and forgetting Him "Those who waste the evening without reading 'Rehraas' and sleep without hearing the praises of the Lord (Sohilaa). infringe the Rehat." (Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Ji) "In the evening listen the 'Rehraas' and listen to the Keertan and discourses (Katha) of the Lord's praises" (Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Ji) "Remember Him, meditate on Him, and sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe, day and night, evening and morning." (SGGSji Ang 530) 6. It's best to avoid the opportunity of temptations and therefore events where temptations are great. "But he has forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and he has become attached to other temptations. His life is totally worthless!" (SGGSji Ang 1219) 7. It's best to avoid dating and/or objectifying women such that you contribute to patriarchy. Dating outside of marriage is hazerdous, even if this is a 'play' date with a friend; after all, why risk falling to the possible temptation of lust when you see her in a flattering dress, dance with her, be alone with her for hours in the middle of the night etc. Being uncomfortable with revealing clothes or even those which play up the female curvature, I would have to ask her to wear something else. This infringes upon her rights as an equal to decide without influence or pressure what to wear. In such, I would be contributing to a patriarchy. My being uncomfortable is my problem, I have no right to hold authority over what women should wear and therefore I should not put myself in such a position in the first place. Hopefully the reader would now appreciate why I would find attendance at such an event, with a date, uncomfortable!

Khalistani gun man jee, there is no justification for consuming drugs as some modern Nihangs do maybe these are some things which have crept up into the Nihang lifestyle over the centuries. I'm not against Nihangs. I personally like them. They have preserved many old traditions of the Sikhs to this day. But you need to get out of us vs them mentality that UK Nangs have created amongst many western Sikhs. I've talked to Nihangs in India and they don't agree with UK Nangs at all. That being said no one is perfect and no one is beyond scrutiny. If Nihangs are doing something objectionable there is nothing wrong with being critical about it. Just because one is Nihang does not mean whatever they do is 100% correct.

Got this from Facebook...

You can give it whatever name you want and justify it however you feel will settle that itch but consumption of DRUGS including cannabis is forbidden, PERIOD! I've never heard of any soldiers in any other country using the consumption of drugs as a remedy or as an aid for sleep or to help them concentrate on Akaal maharaj! Oh except for the jah Shaka at Tudor rose crew (you know exactly who you are!!)

Source: http://www.examiner....-demand-apology Sikh Americans decry American Flag burning in India and demand apology August 11, 2012 By: Amrik Singh (Sumedh Saini, The present Director General of Police (DGP) of Punjab). SAN FRANCISCO, Aug. 10, 2012 - Sikh Americans highly appreciate the overwhelming public support and the response of the US Government, Law Enforcement, and the US media to the white Supremacist’s attack on a Sikh Gurdwara in Oak Creek Wisconsin. Sikh Americans have never lagged behind in showing deep respect to American values and the US Flag despite facing random attacks against their identity. They believe it happens mostly out of ignorance. The President of Oak Creek Gurdwara, one of the six victims, had American flag in his front yard that showed his attachment to the symbol of freedom. But in India, a staged incident of burning American flag has invited the wrath of Sikh Americans who demanded immediate apology from India for showing disrespect to the American flag and a thorough investigation of ulterior motives. View slideshow: Sikh Americans and India's games against them. “India and its puppet government in Punjab must issue an immediate apology to Sikh-Americans for burning our flag,” said Bhajan Singh Bhinder, Director of US-based Sikh Information Center. “We are not India’s property. They should get their hands off our flag.” A suspected Supremacist, posing as a Sikh burns American flag.Photo credit: Sikh information center On August 6, members of a political party aligned with Hindu supremacists Bharatiya Janata Party, burned several flags and displayed signs reading: “US Govt Take Action Against The Killers.” It is a disturbing development, according to Mr. Bhinder, because Hindu supremacists are looking for racial divisions, hatred, and violence against American Sikhs. Shiromni Akali Dal, which was once a Sikh oriented political party, is currently hand in glove with Hindu hardliners whose hands are still suspect in killing thousands of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and Dalits from 1980- 2008. The same day of the Oak Creek incident, Chief Minister of Punjab, Parkash Singh Badal wrote in a letter to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh: “The government of India must get more actively and vigorously involved in getting the U.S. administration to address the issue in right earnest.” Foreign Minister S. M. Krishna also blamed America, saying: "The U.S. government will have to take a comprehensive look at this kind of tendency which certainly is not going to bring credit to the United States of America." Mr. Bhinder said how can Government of India ask justice for six Sikhs when it has not brought to justice any killer of 10,000 Sikhs, and burning of their hundreds of historical Gurdwaras ? Bhinder said “Badal has promoted Sumedh Saini, an architect of Sikh genocide in India, as the head of the state police department, how can he plead on behalf of the American Sikhs? Saini got the highest office by killing thousands of Sikhs. There is enough evidence that India rewards and promotes police officers who use torture and murder of prisoners.” Many Hindu hardliners guided mobs to kill Sikhs and burn their places of worship in 1984. Four thousands Sikhs lost their lives in Delhi alone and mob leaders were elevated to the highest offices. According to a press release, Bhinder stated the intent of the flag-burning was clearly intended to create strife among different American communities and provoke American anger against U.S. Sikhs. “This has the hallmarks of a staged event. The rabble-rousing Indian government is trying to pit one American against another to divide the USA along caste lines in the tradition of the Brahmin rulers of India,” he said. "India can do nothing to end anti-Sikh violence in America as long as it continues the officially sanctioned genocide of Sikhs in India.” He added that a 2011 report by human rights watchdog Organization for Minorities of India (OFMI) stated that torture is used regularly in every police station in India. Backing Bhinder’s claim that police brutality leads to promotion, OFMI spokesman Arvin Valmuci said, “Look at former police officer Mohammad Izhar Alam, who led the ‘Black Cats’ death squad to exterminate Sikhs. Last November, 34 young Sikhs killed by Alam were finally identified, but in October, Badal assured his wife a seat in Punjab Legislative Assembly.” Valmuci says India has a long, indisputable record of staging violence against minorities. He also questioned the spontaneity of the flag-burning, asking, “Was it staged by the Indian government like other crimes such as the 2001 Chittisinghpura Massacre, the 2007 Samjhauta Express bombing, and the 1982 Cow Head Incident?” The Sikh Information Centre was joined by OFMI in making three demands of India: “If India truly has sympathy for the memories of Wisconsin Sikhs Satwant Singh Kaleka, Prakash Singh, Sita Singh, Ranjit Singh, Suveg Singh, and Paramjit Kaur, then it will listen to us. We demand: “1) An immediate investigation of the mysterious thugs who burned the American flag in New Delhi; “2) An immediate apology by India and its puppet government in Punjab to the USA's Sikh community; “3) Immediate prosecution of Kamal Nath and of Badal's Police chief, Sumedh Saini, for crimes against the Sikhs involving the torture and murder of thousands. “We also humbly request: “1) The Obama Administration take swift action to investigate attempts to use the mischievous flag-burning incident to create more civil strife in the USA; “2) The U.S. State Department should pressurize India for an official apology to the Sikh-American community for burning their flag; “3) The U.S. Congress take up and press this issue and particularly seek prosecution of Kamal Nath and Sumedh Saini.” About SIC: The Sikh Information Centre is a USA-based non-profit committed to the discovery, dissemination and elevation of crucial information relating to the liberty of unhindered exercise of all intrinsic rights of humanity.

just wanted to share something with sangat: even though the shooter was american its amazing to see how some white americans have shared our pain. I personally had a white american approach me at an airport in USA few days after the shooting, who apologised for our loss and said it shouldn't have ever happened. Just goes to show that our pain has/is been felt by other communities to.

Good thread. I asked a similar question earlier in the year but the discussion descended into the usual "You're disrespecting Maharaj" (I was not), so I let it slide. I like this conclusion. The Khalsa is, to my mind, a finely nuanced state of existence in addition to its other features. I guess this debate ties into the whole "How do you differentiate between anger and Bir Rass and then use it accordingly?" and vice versa.

In a highly competitive work atmosphere, where the majority are from wealthy elite and liberal backgrounds, small variances from social conventions are frowned upon and can unnecessarily cause one to stick out like a sore thumb. Extend yourself only to the extent you can still be yourself. When I have been amongst wealthy elite, I have been very much myself, rubbing a few people the wrong way and being appreciated by the vast majority who hate thier own imprisonment of social conventions. Don't start jumping on tables, but whatever you wear be yourself and carry yourself with comfortable confidence. The vast majority of people are scared of themselves and others as they are worry about conventions. In any society, the wealthier people get, the harder they try, the more self conscious they become. Be yourself and be very human, very social, if it includes humour and a smile, all the better. You will be a magnet amongst a socially downtrodden bunch of wealthy stiff nerds. As for the date, are you sure that you are "expected to bring a date"? In this day and age it sounds very odd that it would be a strict expectation. You may be mistaken as to this as a requirement. There are many many people who at a given point in time are not dating and they don't just go to a bar and find a date....that's a misguided bollywood and punjab portrayal of white people. The following suggestions, do only if you are comfortable, if you can not do this with complete confidence and comfort, then don't. Bring your friend along and introduce her as a "not my date, but a respected friend". Alternatively, I would put a kajoor in my pocket and if someone asked, i'd say of course i brought a date and show them. Pity the fool who takes any offence to that. The h* with convention. Yes i have basically done stuff along these lines. So many ways to handle this. You can simply say, might be unconventional in your world, but I don't date. etc. etc. The main point is you are comfortable in your skin. If seating for dinner is set up for pairs, put the kajoor on the chair beside you. Most of the men might worry if their date will leave with you by the end of the night. Another thing you have to be willing to accept if you do the above is the consequences. At times they are very positive in that you end up far more respected. It is also possible that you make it clear that you are too real for people around you and you end up with what the norm would consider "negative" consequences. You may be ostracized by them, but if you're strong enough you'll feel amazingly powerful and popular. I've lost many opportunities to be richer and sadder...and the doors that open up allow you to rule the world. Kudos to my tidy Sikh bros/sis who handle this type of stuff with more social graces than I would and therefore make bridges for all of us with influence. But for me, I am the wealthy elite without a dollar in my pocket. At parties and those around me need to worry whether they should be more like me. Good luck bro, take from this only what you can handle. you sound like you're going to do just fine.

Wow, u managed to explain a very complicated topic very simply. And with new insights and everything. I really liked your view about why Dasam Granth was not added into Guru Granth sahib Ji, it has been implied before, but not so clearly articulated. Your view about the khalsa being a 'difficult responsiblitity of supporting a paradocical state of existence' seems supported by the fact that a khalsa is a saint-soldier, which is a contradiction of sorts. Also non-violence vs. violence has been debated here before. I tried looking for the thread for the past hour, but couldn't find it. It was about what are Sikhs supposed to follow when they get hit: PrIdw jo qY mwrin mukIAW iqn@w n mwry GuMim ] fareedhaa jo thai maaran mukeeaaa(n) thinhaa n maarae ghu(n)m || Fareed, do not turn around and strike those who strike you with their fists. AwpnVY Gir jweIAY pYr iqn@w dy cuMim ]7] aapanarrai ghar jaaeeai pair thinhaa dhae chu(n)m ||7|| Kiss their feet, and return to your own home. ||7|| or When all else fails, it is permitted to take the sword in to ones hand . As far as I remember, they reached the conclusion that for personal matters, the above should be the case, and for matters that have greater consequences the bottom should be. There is also history. I forget, but a girl was forcibly picked up by Mughals ( I think) and Singhs took a hukamnama at Akaal Takhat and it was Basant Ki Vaar. the singhs took the pangtis (lines) "Panjay badhe mahabali kar sacha dhooa" or "i bound the five strong ones by support of the true one" as permission to go to her rescue. Also I found another thread that states: in the modern world - where the spreading of peace & democracy through warfare seem to be the exclusive preserve of the United States and it's allies - does glorifying violent causes and wars (even if they ARE permissable from a moral and religious (Sikhi) standpoint) and in-fact approving of it's methods and ends - be something Sikhs should not be ashamed to do? Should we compromise our core beliefs and remain anonymous in order not to be tarred with the "extremist brush" OR should we say "To hell with that! I'm not distorting my faith and it's ideals because it makes a few hypocritical politicians and arm-chair pundits feel uncomfortable"? the thread link:

As someone not brought up Sikh, the caste system boggles the mind. It's simply not part of Sikhism and is representative of eons of oppression and discrimination. I don't understand how difficult it is to accept Gurujis command and let go of caste, but I suppose that not knowing or caring what caste my ancestors were puts me in such a position to be able to preach, as I haven't faced any pressure from family or society to conform. That said, I know of plenty of young British Sikhs who are under absolutely no pressure to conform- they wholeheartedly embrace caste and celebrate it. That saddens me as they have a choice. In my experience caste is not becoming less of an issue in the west- what is being lost is Sikhism. I am aware of no study which estimates the proportion of caste believers and the proportion of Amritdharis or aspiring Amritdharis 40 years ago and now in the West. My personal observations would allude to the proportion of caste believers down by a small percent, whereas the loss of Sikhi being down drastically. I say this based on a) People I know and b) Looking at Sikh matrimonial advertisements in both Gurdwaras and online- 80% have no kes and are not religious and 60% want partners from specific castes (only). The 20% who are not religious and don't believe in caste either, are willing to marry any religion- they have lost their identity completely. I find it hard to believe that 80% of first generation immigrants didn't follow Sikhi- so Sikhism has failed but caste has not been lost. I fully agree, caste gives people the ability to feel good for themselves, feel special, i.e. ego and (especially in India), it's about power and politics.

These stooges should see things in perspective - contrasting this incident to govt sponsored 84 riots 2012 - police sustained injuries and took out the assailant , 1984 - police first systematically disarmed the sikhs then helped the mobs in every way possible 2012 - obama delivered a nationwide speech on how sad the incident was and then ordered us flags to fly at half staff worldwide, 1984- Rajiv gandhi in his first press interview remarked - when a big tree falls earth shakes (implying when a monumental leader like mrs gandhi dies , some collateral damage is bound to happen)

Sometimes I think it doesnt need us to go into too much detail. All we need to say is 'Sikhs are not Muslims', period. If all us Sikhs went on as many sites as they could around the world ie Sikh websites, facebook pages, chat sites like this, twitter etc posting the simple words 'Sikhs are not Muslims' everything would be fixed overnight. I'm sick of the fact that Muslims commited the 9/11 acts in America and the 7/7 acts in England and we Sikhs are taking all the flack!! Just as an individual needs to take responsibility for their own actions so do religions need to take responsibility for their own actions and history. Otherwise their is no incentive for that religion to sort out the mess it created or apologise for the mistakes it's made. It's up to the Muslims to sort out their own mess. SIkhs didn't commit 9/11 or 7/7, Muslims did. Nothing bad us going to happen to the muslims if we make it clear that we Sikhs are not Muslims as most Muslims don't wear turbans or have uncut hair anyway. So, we are not even doing the Muslims any favours by living a lie by effectively joining in this whole facade of not making it clear that we Sikhs are not Muslims.

American Sikhs took an advertisement in a news paper telling the Indian Sikhs to keep off their (American Sikh affairs). Further telling the so called Sikhs demonstrating in front of American Embassy and also the leaders (read Badal Dal and some Congressi and BJPs) making unnecessary statements to do their demonstrating in India where the Sikhs are mistreated on daily basis and where Sikhs have not got any justice for 1984 massacre, have not received any justice for Gurdaspur shooting and killing of Bhai Jaspal Singh, and Ludhiana killing --- and other incidents. It is in India where Sikhs need protecting more than anywhere else. . . .

Its shocking how much effort is being put into the nang propaganda both direct and indirect. Gursikhs who laid down their lives and protected Sikhi are made out to be British influenced. If these people were British supporters why did the British carry out massacres such as Nankana Sahib to defend idol worshipping Mahants. Many Sikhs were killed by British police as they tried to free Gurdwaras from the Mahants.Unfortunately youngsters come under the influence of these nangs as they are not aware of their history. The true Nihangs fought for the Sikh state and many fought to the death in the Sikh wars with the British up until 1849. After that their influence declined considerably and Mahants under the control of the British weakened Sikh institutions. It was the brave Sikhs of the Singh Sabha and reform movement that opposed British designs. The eventual capitulation of the Sikhs to these protesters does not mean that they supported them. In fact I would like to know where the Nihangs have fought in any numbers against the oppressers of Sikhs in recent times, the question is always asked where are they in times of crisis. http://en.wikipedia..../Akali_movement

The most interesting thing is this GT group backed by nangs has been able to finally start discrediting work of GurSikhs that helped save the Panth for a century. It is impressive indeed. What's most impressive is they somehow have convinced people that christian influence was added and "puratan khalsa maryada" removal is worse than removing idols, tobacco, drugs, alcohol and naked dancing girls from Gurudwaras. Another impressive thing is how these nangs have associated Puratan Khalsa Maryada with Christian influence and the removal of naked dancing girls, tobacco, drugs, idols and the pest mahants from Gurudwaras. Puratan Khalsa Maryada wasn't discredited by any of the Singh Sabha movement, just more of propaganda spewed by nangs is that they bet their life that these Singhs (Attar Singh Mastuane, Bhai Randheer Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, Bhai Veer Singh, Giani Ditt Singh) were all anti Khalsa maryada british raaj cronnies lool. They never use their specific names because it's easier to say Singh Sabha movement than point out exactly who in Singh Sabha movement was against Khalsa maryada? lol Baba Gurbachan Singh said he didn't agree with some stuff that goes on at Hazoor Sahib but still respected the maryada. Don't get caught up in dogma and forget the essence of what Sikhi is. Jaagde rehna Singhoo...jaagde rehna...

KhalistaniGunMan, bro, don't fall for nang propaganda . THe only person influenced by the Brits was teja singh bhasauria. Don't believe everything you're told. It's because of GurSikhs around the time of the Singh Sabha Movement that Sikhi was able to survive another century. They fought to bring back the panth from manmat and out of sanatan Sikhi and these non-Sikhs in the UK are trying to bring back these elements in form of academics. Most people don't know, but Attar Singh Mastuana, Bhai Randheer Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale were all a part of this reform movement. Don't fall for propaganda that people make up bro.'

The stories here are amazing. Mine is not so entertaining. I was born into a Sikh family. My mum used to read alot of stories to me when I was a baby. I knew Sikhi from the beginning. I started learning Kirtan when I was 6 years old on the vaja. Both my parents were musical: Dad and Mum both knowing Tabla. Around 12years old I started learning Sitar. My sister did the same as me but she started Sitar early and my other Sister is a tabla child. As children we did a lot of things together with my mum. She taught us everything. We would do paath together. My mum started teaching us Sukhmani Sahib paath and meanings when we were around 8 years old. I was really inspired by my mum. We had this library collection of Sikh books in our house. Only one of the books were in English. The rest were all in Punjabi. I used to hate the way I could not read the other books. So i pushed myself at Punjabi class. I got excellent grades in those exams. I would read the books in my spare time. I found Shiri Guru Nanak Dev Ji fascinating. I remembered the story of him and the snake protecting him and how he fed the Pandits. Things like that really amazed me. Secretly I wanted to be Guru Nanak Dev Ji but I never told anyone in case they told me off. Then for one of our bed time stories my mum told me about tru pralaad. That was a big day for me. I found Bhagti an interesting and almost magical concept as a child. My mum told me there is rab ie God and to get to God u must do bhagati. I must have been about 8 years old when I told my mum not to disturb me as I am going to do intense bhagti. I think that only lasted 2 days. I was really upset when it did not work. Then my mum told me about Bachitar Natak and how long the 10th Guru spent praying and how you cannot get things quickly but you must keep trying. This was also when I learnt about Baba Fareed. I then spent the rest of my childhood bonding with various figures in our sikh history. The 8th Guru was cool for me cos he was a child Guru and so I used to think he was one of me. I can honestly say my mum taught me many things and its because of her I am Sikh. I don't think I can write it all here but one thing was for sure - before I hit my teens I knew more about Sikhi than the average Amritdhari Sikh. However on the outside I looked like a normal Punjabi girl with my two plaited braids. My hair was never cut but it was never covered. For the whole family however there was a major turning point when we went on Yatra in India during my teens. I don't think I learnt much on the Yatra but I got to see all the places I had heard about. My mums family were Nihang Singhs so she started to tell me about that heritage. I learnt Gatka from my Mama Ji's in India and got a Bana made too. I now wanted complete Sikhi roop. Soon after Yatra I therefore stopped having a braided poiny and instead I started wearing Keskhi. This happened when I was in my teens. It was shocking as suddenly I went through a lot of bullying. Even though I was always Sikh I now had to deal with prejudices amongst other things. I only survived this because I knew so much Sikhi from my Mum. I put up with it and I soon found people respected me and to this day my old school friends call me and tell me how much they look up to me. I remember one of the things I got bullied about was not listening to the same music as them. The saddest thing was that the bullying campaign was led by another Sikh girl who went around telling everyone I was 'sad' for being religious. Some people used to call me Aunty Ji. It wasn't very nice. University was different. By this time I had matured. Importantly I was confident in handling prejudiced people. I think the biggest thing for me was learning how to advocate myself. In my teens I simply put up with the bullying. Looking back I spent alot of time thinking why they were being mean, when actually I should have shared sikhi and explained philospohical idea's to help them understand. I've now learnt its about educating them cos people make fun of things they don't understand. In my experience I found the white people listened and hence accepted me more. Nowadays I don't get too wound up on what people think. Everyone is different and sometimes you have to accept some people will never understand. I have not taken Amrit. Lots of people mistake me for an Amritdhari as I live enough of the lifestyle to be an Amritdhari. However I don't want to reach a minimum standard. I want to be the best I can. So I could have taken Amrit ages ago but instead I am waiting for the right moment for when I feel I just need to take it! I have given myself a mini aim and that is to hopefully take Amrit before I am 25....I am 22 now so thats in the next 3 years