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Your 3 paragraphs are worth 1400 years of Islamic history. My one paragraph was about just 300 years of Sikhi. If Sikhs or Sikhi wasn't a threat to Muslims/Islam, you don't belong on this forum sir. If our growing numbers didn't bother you and your folks, you wouldn't be preaching the accolades of Islam on a Sikh forum. FACT is that YOU people see us as a THREAT, which is why you're posting here today and I am replying to you. FACT is that YOUR Muslim rulers saw Sikhi and the Gurus as threats which is why they martyred scores of Sikhs all in the name of Islam. FACT is that you guys have seen Sikhs as a threat from the very beginning, and you being present on this forum is just another proof. If you don't see Sikhs as a threat, why don't you leave us alone and live your life, and let us live ours? We are NOT bothered to read about what Islam has achieved, because all it has given us is the blood written history of our shaheeds. Go and preach Islam to the weak minded ones who lack any deen-imaan and will fall for your words. I grew up right in the Middle East and know your folks inside out. I've seen first hand what happens to non-Muslims under Shariah and Islamic law, so please spare us the lessons. Either admit that you see Sikhs as a threat and so you're on here, or quit posting if you're that confident. I am not going to ban you or put you again under QC. But if I see ONE more, just ONE more freaking post from you, it will confirm my belief that you guys STILL see Sikhs as a threat. Go teach those who are ignorant enough to learn, we've seen it all enough, we've seen it throughout history and we've seen it first hand.

Sure they were "born" into the same community as you and me Jonny Veerji but they are not Sikhs and the type of monster that kills 83 innocent human beings (regardless of if they were Sikh, Hindu or Muslim) is a sub-human degenerate of the lowest order. There's no such as a born Sikh and we need to emphasise that within the Panth. People have to live Sikhi by living their life truthfully according to the inherent insaaniat within it but instead this rakshas has taken the life of innocents so cruelly away. It's sad that he has to be kept alive to implicate bigger sharks but it's a necassary evil to swallow for the greater good.

Re-read my posts and try and understand the bigger picture. I've given you proof time and time and again but you don't want to accept because you are an apologist for EDL chavs. I have watched SIKH AWARENESS SOCIETY, good work by Bhai Mohan Singh Ji....who is not a supporter of the EDL by the way. Again, I expect you to ignore this. My solution is to make our community strong by instilling family values and bring back some of the culture/values that we have lost. Make ourselves strong enough so that we don't get so desperate that we beg chavs to protect us or (in India) feel we have to align oursleves with right-wing Hindu groups. If we bring back the Sikh spirit of old everything will sort itself out. I notice how you haven't answered my point about how our ancestors didn't tolerate abuse of their religion, Or, the recent genocide in India that started with the insult of Sikhi in 1978. Again, criticising or disagreeing is different to insulting. Sad to see that people like you are apologists for those who insult our religion. Seeing how you're deliberately blurring the distinction between having a viewpoint and insulting. No brushing under the carpet here, I am advocating tackling the issues just not the DAFT way you are suggesting. You are brushing the issue under the carpet of racism that has happened against Sikhs AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. Pathetic. How about you take your own advice and understand that 'right-wing' can be used for a political party OR a group. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say you can insult others religions but not ours. No religion should be insulted .......I disagree with the Brits insulting Christianity as well. I know how I would feel if someone insulted our Gurus....again, weak of you would tolerate this with typical atheist liberal views. Again, you are so obsessed with Muslims that you have to judge on whether they want something or not. Sad to see you have so much intolerance and hate that you just want to insult someone....learn some manners and treat people as you wish to be treated yourself. Again, lots of evidence has been provided. The only paranoid nutcase is you.........so desperately scared of Muslims that you advocate joining the EDL !!! Stop crying and trying to demonise your own community. The point you miss out is that Sikhs tried LOTS of diplomacy before the play was aired to but were not listened to due to the intolerance and hate of those trying to through to demean our faith (people like you). Like I said, I didn't expect you to understand honour and what it means to Sikhs. It's your twisted mind that thinks that way.......... I don't try to make women pay attention to me because as a Sikh I look on all other women as my daughter/sister/mother. I don't believe in relationships outside of marriage or try to exploit other people's women. Again, I don't expect someone with gutter chav values like you to be able to comprehend this. The play was not about Honour Killings but about a rape that happens in a gurdwara. Nice try, AGAIN to justify an attempt to demean your religion without even admitting it was wrong. Regarding the BNP....are you silly enough to forget that you asked a question and then start crying when you get an answer ? They are a tiny, tiny minority of the Muslim community and were arrested....... the law is dealing with it: http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/51155/arrests-over-muslim-patrol-vigilante-videos-london It is not a big enough problem to justify Sikhs joining the EDL - going back to my point. I wouldn't stand with either - going back to my point. I never said they burnt it but the EDL members in the audience were shouting "Burn it, Burn it !!"......they were up for it alright. Again, don't start crying...my point is to show what sort of people they are and to say that Sikhs shouldn't stand with them....which you keep ignoring. What's your point ? They are desperate to get Sikhs on their side. You are comparing the Kashmiri Hindus with the EDL ? Man, you are desperate. The Kashmiri Hindus were being FORCIBILY CONVERTED...are the EDL ? And you're talking about logical...ha ha ! :lol2: This just shows how thoroughly flawed your argument is. If the EDL have a problem with militant Islamists then why not just fight against militant Islamists !!! But they are fighting against a religion, a community. You have completely contradicted yourself AGAIN. It's Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually......shows you need to read up on your religion. "With that same thought in mind"...........what are you on about ???? It is not the same thought...Guru Sahib was fighting against Aurangzeb and not all Muslims (in fact, many helped the Sikhs at that time) and the EDL are fighting against the whole Muslim community. I don't know much about Muhammad....too busy reading about my own religion. Your language is 'typical Chav language'. Spreading hate and misinformation more like. How many Muslims do you get if add one Muslim and one EX Muslim ???? There's a bit of homework for you. I DO love making you look silly when you claim to have made me look silly but have fallen flat on your face :lol2: You are the desperate bottom licker of chavs who denies the problems in his own community and wants to hate against one community because he has a massive chip on his shoulder. The sort of action you and the EDL are proposing ?...I don't think so. Like you who doesn't want to deal with the problems in his own community. I'm moaning because I say we shouldn't join the EDL ?.....dream on chavvy boy. I am not advocating protecting Muslims so your point is irrelevant. I am saying Sikhs shouldn't join the EDL (for the hundredth time :angry2:) I have plenty of ideas that I have already mentioned; let's make ourselves stronger.

Nah Karoon Ab Kee, Nah Karoon Baat Tab Kee. Agar Na Hotey Guru Gobind Singh, To Sunat Hoti Sab Kee. I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow; I talk about today. Had Guru Gobind Singh not been there, They would all be under the Islamic way. -Baba Bulleh Shah

As much as I know this family, they are good souls, always doing sangat, going to Asa Ki Vaar, Ransabai Keertan and AKJ keertans.. They went to watch "men of steel" after a long time. They took a break from their daily life and went to watch the movie and I don't see anything bad in this.. The reason they are fighting for this because they don't want any other Sikh to go through the same. they are doing this religious freedom and moreover, Singh was racially profiled as he wore a big turban on his head. Instead, blaming them for going to movies ( which is not taboo in Sikhi), we must support them as this can happen to us anywhere and anytime Last time I went to see " Monster University" at cinema with my son does that make me a bad Sikh?

My faith is not weak, and nor was that of my forefathers....who never tolerated insults to their religion. This, unfortunately, is a recent thing which started with the insulting of Christianity in this country which has cause a lot of problems for the British people. Sad to see that you support it. The only crybaby is you. You can't take it when someone points the facts about EDL. It's not about being afraid....you asked how the EDL are racist I showed you, and now you can't take it. I'm not worried about anything. How terribly sad that you tolerate insults to your faith....maybe because you didn't care about it in the first place. You are so obsessed with Muslims that every argument has to come back to them. Get a grip. You're the only one crying here. So desperately scared of Muslims that you saying Sikhs should join a right-wing organisation. Am I saying we should join Muslims ???? Who's the petrified one here ? I was just showing you that members of the EDL are racist against us as-well....which is one reason why we shouldn't join them. But, you ignore the point I am making and keep crying. I was just answering your question. That is due to our failure to tell people about who we are and also the media being too politically correct and scared of saying 'Muslim'. Again, pathetic that you would excuse racism against your own people. Was it the case in the UK as-well that they don't know who Sikhs are ? It was racism, plain and simple. And to spell it out for you (as you seem incapable of understanding), I am trying to show you that the current undercurrent of anger is more than just against Muslims. There are some big issues brewing in the UK and Sikhs shouldn't be used as cannon fodder. Look at the bigger picture. Stop crying, no-one was killed or raped over the play. I consider the destruction of a way of life / culture truly disrespectful. Your values are truly messed up......leaving Sikh values and adopting chav values. If you look at our history we have never tolerated disrespect of our religion. In fact the recent struggle from 1978 actually started from this issue. Even the rehatnamey say "Gur Ki Ninda sunai na kaan"...but these would not be in line with your so-called British values so I would expect you to sell out here. Re-read my post...it's linked to the issue of honour. I don't think you will understand this though.... Again, you are in denial, pretending there are no issues with white people moving out of ethnic areas. They feel like they are being pushed out of all areas. How many Muslims are going around telling people to get out ? Or, is this just something spread by scaremongers ? No, they have been against Islam and Islamification long before the EDL were. I'm not going to keep repeating the same things. When I give you examples you go into denial and scream "petrified, sacred...". They didn't burn the koran.....they were going to. I have seen the video on youtube. This proves you are against a religion, something Sikhs have never been in history. Even after sacrificing his four sons Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes a letter to Aurangzeb (Zafarnama) and talks about how Aurangzeb is a deceiving swine who has disgraced his religion. They did NOT start bashing Islam. Shows you what sort of people the EDL is made up of they are and why Sikhs shouldn't support them. No Sikh in history has ever spoken like that about anyone else's religion. Typical chav language. There is ONE Muslim who goes to the EDL rallies. We need to do this as we have BIG problems. You are so afraid that you want to lick chav bottoms, begging them to fight Muslims for you. Have you become that desperate ? I am not saying we should join Muslims...YOU are saying we should join EDL, so who is the apologist, who is desperate, who is frightened ????? You contradict yourself by saying we should be strong, but you are so petrified that you want to join the EDL !!! I am hardly a Muslim apologist as I support our community taking action when required (eg. Shere Punjab).......but NOT by being used as pawns by the EDL. I am in favour of our community concentrating on ourselves and tackling our problems OURSELVES without being so scared that we have to join right-wing groups (by doing this we will end up being used and look stupid). Good for the Sikh guys. Again, not a reason to join the EDL. I'm not saying we should protect them. We shouldn't join the EDL.

PP jee, just like Hindus should be thankful to Sahib Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee for protecting their faith, Muslims need to be thankful to Sahib-E-Kamal Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee for NOT harboring any ill-will towards Muslims inspite of the shaheediyaan of His Father and His 4 sons, for NOT commanding His Khalsa fauj to seek revenge from Muslims. Had he ordered just once to take revenge, I swear the Singhs would have ripped open the entire Middle East all the way to Morocco considering the fact how martially ferocious they were back then. Baba Banda Bahadur and Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa are names your qaum should never forget. Afghans/Pathaans were the bravest among your folks and were hammered by the Singhs right inside their homes in Kabul, thanks to the forces of Maharaja Ranjit Singh under Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa. Go read about what Western authors have said about him. They were glad he was killed in battle as they feared he was all set to march right into Europe. So I repeat, Muslims need to be thankful to Sahib-E-Kamal Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee for NOT harboring any ill-will towards Muslims inspite of the shaheediyaan of His Father and His 4 sons, for NOT commanding His Khalsa fauj to seek revenge from Muslims. If you think Islam will dominate in future and the Muslim populations will rise, well, good for you. Just make sure to teach them how to live in peace with the Sikhs. Don't play with fire, don't stoke the sparks of our historic passion which we carry within us. Teach them about the Battle of Chamkaur and the Battle of Saragarhi, and in the end make sure to end your talk with the phrase "They've done this before, they can do it again, so please live in harmony with them even if they are a mere 1% of your numbers".

You would think that might be true, but despite having your aunt as your MIL, still the inherent nature of women eventually kicks in and MILs and DILs become sworn enemies after marriage.

I asked my Pakistani classmate in college the same question, as to how can you guys marry your own cousins. His response was even more funnier than the cousin-marrying concept itself. "chaache ya phuphee (bhuaa in their terminology) di kudi naal viah karn da eh fayda hunda ki oh teri ammi nu sass nai balki apni khaala (aunt) hi samjhugi te hor zaada khidmat karugi" "The benefit of marrying a cousin is that she won't see your mom as her sass (mother-in-law) but as her aunt and so will server her more and better".

regarding this claim what do you have to say about this post i made in another thread i dont want to start an arguement im legitimately interested in learning how many converted because of sufis vs how many converted because of fear read the whole thing Bro do you seriosly believe that hindus never converted to avoid all of that and to save the lives of themselves and there familys also pakistanis muslims are a proud people do you honestly think that they will teach there children"our ancestors were hindus who converted out of fear" instead saying the majority converted because of sufis became a conveniant exvuse

sikhi may be 500+ years old but the khalsa was formally created in 1699 thats what mehtab singh was refering too you seem like a smart enough guy you shouldve been able to notice by now that its the same 2-3 guys in every thread in a forum that has thousands of members yet when you reply to them you insult sikhs as a whole and iv seen muslims say much worse about sikhs than any sikh on here has about muslims just go to any big muslim forum and type in sikh in the search bar to find out i believe brother mehtab grew up in the uae

We can discuss their manmat of going to watch movie (as you perceive it as manmat) among other things when dust settles but at this point or stage we should all support them and sign the petition to fight against action of kicking them out because it has became freedom of liberty /religion issue. In history, Sant jarnail singh khalsa bhindranwale defended against ban of all sikhs in Asian games in India by fascist gov't.. He defended against ban regardless how irrelevant games were in relation to dharam.

Vahiguroo- manas ki jaat sabhae eko pehchaanbo

One should be sincere with themselves and not make Sikhi a show and just bow down to Guru Granth Sahib Jee to show themselves as a Sikh. Bowing down alone is nothing....it's Karam Kaand/ritual. Along with bowing down, one should have faith and belief. Also, one should have qualities of a good listener and sevak. Also, one should not only bow down and listen, but also read at their own pace. While listening and reading, one should accept Guru's Teachings and Hukams. True acceptance of those Teachings and Hukams is seen when the person applies it in their day-to-day, breath-to-breath, action-to-action life. ਜਾਤਿ - ਸਮਾਜ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ ਤੋਂ ਦੂਜੇ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਖ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਵੰਡ. ਰੋਟੀ ਬੇਟੀ ਦੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਰਾਦਰੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ. ਇਸ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਨਸਲੀ ਭੇਦ, ਭੌਗੋਲਿਕ ਭੇਦ, ਇਤਿਹਾਸੀ ਵੈਰ, ਕਿਰਤ ਵਿਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਭੇਦ ਆਦਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਹਨ. ਜਾਤਿ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ ਕਿਸੇ ਨਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਸ਼ਕਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੇਸਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਧਰਮਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵੇਖੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੱਦੋਂ ਵਧਕੇ ਹੈ.#ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਨੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਦੇ ਅਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਭਰੇ ਵਿਸ਼੍ਵਾਸਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦੇਸ਼ ਲਈ ਹਾਨੀਕਾਰਕ ਜਾਣਕੇ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਆਵਾਜ਼ ਉਠਾਈ ਅਤੇ ਦੇਸ਼ ਦੇਸ਼ਾਂਤਰਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰਕੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਾਣੀ ਦ੍ਵਾਰਾ ਨਿਸ਼ਚੇ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਕਿ ਸਾਰੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਸ ਇੱਕ ਪਿਤਾ ਦੀ ਸੰਤਾਨ ਹੈ. ਉੱਚ ਅਤੇ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੈ, ਯਥਾ- ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ, ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ, ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ।#(ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੧)#ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ।ਤੇਹਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ.#(ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੩)#ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਊਤਮਾ, ਜਤਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਇ,#ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਸਭ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਹੈ, ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਕੀੜਾ ਹੋਇ.#(ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੩)#ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰੀਅਹੁ ਕੋਈ,#ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਹੋਈ.#ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ,#ਇਸ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ.#ਚਾਰੇ ਬਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁਕੋਈ,#ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ.#ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ,#ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਘੜੇ ਕੁਮ੍ਹਾਰਾ.#ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਾ ਆਕਾਰਾ,#ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ.#ਕਹਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਮਬੰਧੁ ਹੋਈ,#ਬਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ.#(ਭੈਰ ਮਃ ੩)#ਜਾਤਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨਹ ਪੂਛੀਐ, ਸਚੁਘਰੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਤਾਇ,#ਸਾ ਜਾਤਿ, ਸਾ ਪਤਿ ਹੈ, ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ. (ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਮਃ ੧)#ਗਰਭਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ,#ਬ੍ਰਹਮਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ.#ਕਹੁਰੇ ਪੰਡਿਤ, ਬਾਮਨ ਕਬਕੇ ਹੋਏ,#ਬਾਮਨ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਤ ਖੋਏ.#ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ,#ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ?#ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ, ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ?#ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ?#ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ,#ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ. (ਗਉ ਕਬੀਰ)#ਕੋਊ ਭਯੋ ਮੁੰਡੀਆ ਸੰਨ੍ਯਾਸੀ ਕੋਊ ਯੋਗੀ ਭਯੋ,#ਭਯੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਕੋਊ ਯਤੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਬੋ,#ਹਿੰਦੂ ਔ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫ਼ਜ਼ੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸ਼ਾਫ਼ੀ,#ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਭ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ.#ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ, ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਮਾਜ ਓਈ,#ਮਾਨਸ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ, ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਹੈ.#ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ,#ਨ੍ਯਾਰੇ ਨ੍ਯਾਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਸੁਭਾਵ ਹੈ.#ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ, ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ, ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ, ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ,#ਖ਼ਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਸ਼ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਵ ਹੈ.#ਅੱਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ, ਪੁਰਾਨ ਔ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ,#ਏਕਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਵ ਹੈ.#(ਅਕਾਲ)#ਸਾਧੁ ਕਰਮ ਜੋ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈਂ,#ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈਂ.#ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀਂ,#ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਜਗ ਧਰਹੀਂ. (ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ)#ਘਿਉ ਭਾਂਡਾ ਨ ਵਿਚਾਰੀਐ,#ਭਗਤਾਂ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤਿ ਨ ਕਾਈ.#(ਭਾਗੁ, ਵਾਰ ੨੫)#ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀਮੱਲ ਅਰੁ ਤੁਲਸਾ ਦੋਇ,#ਹੁਤੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੇ ਭੱਲੇ ਸੋਇ,#ਸੁਨ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਤਬ ਚਲ ਆਏ,#ਨਮੋ ਕਰੀ ਬੈਠੇ ਢਿਗ ਥਾਏ.#ਉਰ ਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਗਿਰਾ ਉਚਾਰੀ:-#"ਏਕੋ ਜਾਤ ਹਮਾਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ."ਸ਼੍ਰੀਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰ ਭਨ੍ਯੋ ਸੁਨ ਸੋਇ:-#"ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੀ ਨਹਿਂ ਕੋਇ.#ਉਪਜਹਿਂ ਜੇ ਸ਼ਰੀਰ ਜਗ ਮਾਹੀਂ,#ਇਨ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਾਚ ਸੋ ਨਾਹੀਂ,#ਬਿਨਸਜਾਤ ਇਹ ਜਰਜਰਿ ਹੋਇ,#ਆਗੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਜਾਤ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਇ.#'ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ ਹੈ, ਅਗੈ ਜੀਉ ਨਵੇ,#ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੈ, ਚੰਗੇ ਸੇਈ ਕੇਇ. '#ਇਮ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਕ ਉਚਾਰਾ,#ਆਗੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜੋਰ ਸਿਧਾਰਾ,#ਉਪਜੈ ਤੁਨ ਇਤਹੀ ਬਿਨਸੰਤੇ,#ਆਗੇ ਸੰਗ ਨ ਕਿਸੇ ਚਲੰਤੇ.#ਸਿਮਰ੍ਯੋ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਸਦੀਵਾ,#ਸਿੱਖਨ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀ ਮਨ ਨੀਵਾਂ,#ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਪਤ ਲੇਖੇ ਪਰਜਾਇ,#ਜਾਤਿ ਕੁਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਪਰਖਹਿ ਕਾਇ." (ਗੁਪ੍ਰਸੂ)

Mods before you reject this, the reason i have wanted to stay gupt is because, rather than everyone dive on me, i want all the sangat to think about these lines from Sukhmani Sahib Ji. I myself am guilty of this and so are many others if they are honest, just lately i have noticed we are all and myself (with the exception of some, very few in fact) getting into arguments over nothing sometimes very silly points and trying to show how much more cleverer we are than each other or even better human beings. And then we have others who just come on and say we should not be on a particular side, but more tolerant etc, when they should try to diffuse the situation and say enough stop, but the truth is they are actually getting a kick from seeing others arguing. Hence trying to show they are good. I am not pointing at anyone in particular and i myself am the worst culprit !! But you know what lets love each other, forget our difference, because we are the children of the same father. Here are the lines i have taken, have we become like this ? aapas ka-o jo bhalaa kahaavai. One who calls himself good tiseh bhalaa-ee nikat na aavai. goodness shall not draw near him. Bhul chuk maf. Mods veerji if you refuse this, i understand.

Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing, and not because they have anything intelligent to add to the discussion. This is the biggest problem in online forums, especially this one. It's a shame because plenty of interesting discussions get derailed once people's big egos start taking over and the thread becomes more about proving each other wrong and "showing off" how much knowledge we have rather than enlightening one another with pyar (love) and nimrata (humility) and these two weapons are the best to use when you want to show somebody the right path.

Jaswant Singh Khlara identified 25,000 Sikhs murdered in the Amritsar area alone before he himself was murdered. This was based on careful investigation and proof. If you take the whole of Punjab the killings could be 150,000 -250,000. Many Sikhs were murdered in Bluestar, Woodrose and Blackthunder 1and 2.

Your examples can apply to any Sikh community in any part of world ( UK, USA, Norway, Australia Italy etc.) You can find bad apples in other communities (Sikh and Non-Sikh). One thing I would say about Sikhs in Canada is they tend to have a lot of influence in the government compare to other minorities despite the fact they make up about 1.5% of Canada's population.

Since the Sikh Genocide has become a mainstream issue in the West amongst Sikhs this is now impacting the Sikhs in Punjab and Delhi. The Sadda Haq film and memorials both in Punjab and Delhi are getting people talking about the killings. People are less scared now, Kuljinder Singh Sidhu with his film has shown people in the Punjab are concerned about what happened. More people will come out and expose what happened and it will come out through individuals, most India based Sikh organisations, jathebandhis, babas and Sants are controlled directly or indirectly by the government so that's why you do not see them doing much in this area.

There was an attempt made for an unofficial commission by the Institute of Sikh Studies in SAS Nagar in the late 1990s. This was to a commission with no official powers to hear both the stories of those who suffered and those who took part in the oppression. The people in power who were scared of what would come out got a court order making the holding of the commission contempt of court and the IOSS backed out due to this.

Dhariwal are called Dhaliwal in Jalandhar. They are the same tribe and referred to as Dhariwal almost every place in Punjab other than in Jalandhar, The census considered them to be the same tribe and hence to stop confusion referred to them as Dhariwal. The census tables were collated to give an overall picture of the strength of each got and not to go into the nuances of each got which was left for the gazetteer publications and for the census report The migration of many Jat tribes from Majha to Malwa, Doaba and Gujranwala occurred much earlier than the Misl period. Although the Misldars from Majha would still have contacts with their tribe that had migrated to outside of Majha previously and use the contacts to get men and supplies to supplement their forces in any attack in areas outside of Majha. In many cases the Misldars especially in places like Gujranwala would invade from Majha in order to specifically assist their own gots in their struggle with the Muslim tribes of the region. I still see that you do not address the points raised before. Prior to 1911 was no way that a Jat of Sikh appearance even if he gave his religion as Hindu would be listed as a Hindu. he would be listed as a Sikh. There was a suggestion that the Hindu Jats may have been monas. There was prior to 1947 really no such thing as a mona Sikh Jat. In the Sikh Jat villages the kids might have had cut hair but as they got older they would become Keshdhari,The few adult mona Jat Sikhs were people such as returnees from Canada or people in government service like Mahinder S Randhawa who was a District Commissioner of Delhi in 1947 and later did sterling work rehabilitating the Sikh refugees in Punjab after 1947. In Malwa the only mona Jats were the udasis sadhs in their deras.

Yes this policeman's statements should be presented to western human rights organisations. More policemen may come out and then it will be difficult for them to control the truth There has been a change in the Sikh community in the West on 1984 issues since the Sikh media started up , it could happen in the Punjab also.

We all knew this, but how these people sleep at night is beyond me, but i agree he should be encouraged to give all the info he can, but it will fall on deaf ears thats the question, and who is going to do anything not the indian Government / Badal thats for sure. We can but bring this to the attention of the world. Sickening thing is these guys are from sikh background killing there own, we have the biggest fools in our own community especially in the punjab :sad2:.

This Policeman should be encouraged to tell all about the Genocide of Sikhs. The shocking thing is that a low level Policeman can kill 83 Sikhs , multiply that out with the thousands of policeman involved and figures of 250,000 Sikhs murdered seem quite plausible. He should be encouraged to spill the beans on his senior officers KP GIll, Saini and the political people involve from the Congress and some Akalis. The Sada Haq film and the general awareness of the Genocide is bringing people to talk about what happened.

There are many sad parts to this whole story, but one of the most saddest parts that stood out to me is the fact that even this man's truth isn't clean and free. His truth has many strings attached to it and is covered with corruption, anger, revenge and greed. The only reason he came out with this truth is to vent his frustrations and to get back at all of his higher-ups who didn't give him the promotions which he was promised in return for conducting all of those fake encounters. After all of these years he probably didn't feel bad about anything and was probably drooling and dreaming about all of the promotions that he would get sooner or later. Then after 24 years of working with the Punjab Police, he realizes that he isn't getting any more promotions and didn't reach nearly as high-up as he dreamed, so now he comes out with the truth. To me, that's one of the saddest parts of this whole thing. That the truth isn't even the truth anymore. It has corruption, greed and strings attached to it. If he got (close to) all of the promotions he wanted, he probably would never have came out with this confession. Maybe this is why Guru Sahib wrote the following, in order to combat such types of 'truth tellers': Sachoh Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar |5| Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5|| Because even if someone tells the truth, it is still nothing compared to truthful living. A prime example is the case we have here in this topic. Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Jeeo Maharaj!!!

Take a deep breath. Now, the worst that can happen is you can die (physically, in this illusion, w.e) Now what's happened, and what have you been diagnosed with? Furthermore, what do you think is wrong? Don't panic, don't type quickly even if it takes you weeks to type the post, take your time; we're all here for you, and waiting to help you. VJKVJF

There is nothing wrong with amritdhari love marriages, majority of them get love marriages in the west, but pretend to play the "it was arranged card" As for you, you're in quite the predicament, use your own budhi. Weigh in the pros and cons then make a decision.

Great Post Qaye !!! Nice to see somebody on this forum who actually likes Amritdharis and gives Amritdharis the same compassion and forgiveness they would give to all the rest of the people on this planet ! It only takes one anti-Sikh person to critizise an Amritdhari on this forum and we all join in. This poster (Qaye) has the first quality required in being an Amritdhari- Compassion (daya). Nice to see somebody giving out some warmth and forgiveness on this forum to an Amritdhari rather than spittiing out venom, poison, anger, and fury towards any Amritdhari who falls in one of the aspects of being a Sikh!!!

Yes, an Amritdhari is not supposed to be in Moh, and all the people who say it should be Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji first are totally correct! The love you have for your partner in marraige and the love you have for Guru Ji are two different types of love. When the 10 Gurus were on this earth women loved the 10 Gurus as their Gurus, and the same women loved their husbands as their husbands. The two types of love were different and never got mixed up!! But the fact still remains that there is still no caste for any Amritdhari, it goes when they take Amrit. So how can anybody say that one Amritdhari cannot marry another Amritdhari because the two Amritdharis are of different caste? How can two Amritdharis be of a different caste, when they have no caste? This Amritdhari girl's parents could have many reasons why this girl should not marry the Amritdhari man, and all those reasons could be valid. The only excuse that could not be valid is if the parents say the boy is not ofthe same caste. As then they would be saying that the Guru's Amrit is not real and does not work in that it does not remove caste!!! You are right, you cannot call anyone Amritdhari who has a lot of moh. However, can you call anyone Amritdhari who acknowledges caste? Do you believe in caste?

Many of the sensible reasons people have put in the post are perfectly correct. i.e. you may be too young to get married yet, or there maybe other reasons why your parents don't want you to get married to anyone yet. However, caste should never be an issue for Amritdharis as they have no caste. Caste is wiped out when somebody takes Amrit !!! One thing I will ask every male posting on this thread. Would you like to have an arranged marriage with this young lady if she had no physical relationship with this young man at all, but, always thought of him for the rest of her life, whilst she was married to you, as a result of being 'fixed up' with you because you were the same Caste? It's not just about this young lady, it's about the man she will marry if she doesn't marry this man. Does that 'other' man deserve to be married to a lady who loved another man more than him? If she leaves this man and marries a man her parents pick in later years then that is great, if, she forgets this man, and learns to love the new man. However, if she never forgets this man, and never learns to love the other man, is it fair on that 'other' man? Anybody care to answer?

I think the parents of the young girl who started this thread are right. As Sikhs, we should believe in caste, because that's how we get to kiss the Brahmin's feet and become their slave, by following their rule of caste. If we didn't follow caste we would not be putting the Brahmin above our Gurus, who said don't follow caste, and you know we have to keep the Brahmin above the Gurus, don't you? We should totally ignore the fact that our 11 Gurus say ignore caste. We should also ignore the fact that the Panj Piyare were of different castes, because we only call it a Khalsa Brotherhood, but really we believe that the Khalsa Brotherhood does not exist because you cannot have a brotherhood, brothers, of different castes. What was Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj thinking of? We know better don't we? Further more, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj said that taking Amrit wipes out your caste, then we know better than Guru Ji don't we? We know that the Brahmin's caste system is stronger than Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Amrit, and therefore the Brahmin's caste remains even when somebody takes Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Amrit, don't we? We know that even though the young woman and man mentioned in this post, who have both taken Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Amrit, are actually still in separate castes and Guru Ji's Amrit did not wipe their caste out at all did it? We must remember to cup the Brahmin Man's feet gently in our hands before we kiss them in order to acknowledge the caste system that they, the Brahmin Man started, shouldn't we?

look, a marrage without love, is no marage at all. from prem, pyaar, preet, we get to god. outside this, ther is nothing.. we do not believe in arranged marrage. we believe in assisted marrage. meaning, either you find a guy, or ur parents or friends, suggest somone to you. bottom line we must have love. sikhs believe in assisted marrage. i.e. suggesting a guy / girl . if you fall in and out of love, that aint right. if you both remember god from that love, and not get sexually high / the urges in that love, then its ok too. if the love is for marage, then its ok. if not, then u know thta its wrong!! fateh

I had sangat with baba jee, baba jee were a puuran rehatvaan chardi kalaa mahapurkh, with immense gyaan and vidhiya, Its a great loss to the panth Enlightenment A great pain arose in Sant Mani Singh in 1990 that so many years had passed yet enlightenment had not arrived. He was crippled emotionally, tears were running down his eyes, he was going crazy from dawn to dusk, the heartache was accelerating just as the floods of the river in the rainy season flowing with such force. A great pain flooded his heart with sorrow and agony. In the east they call this phenomenon ‘vairag’. Whilst describing this moment he said “Sadness has its own qualities. It can give you gifts that nothing else can; happiness never goes as deep as sadness because only sadness can take you deeper than anything else. The inner me was screaming I just could not tolerate it, it was getting to me. It was almost a state of madness.” He went on to say “The craziness was I didn’t know if I believed. I didn’t know if I believed The whole phenomenon gave birth to enlightenment. Unexpectedly the phenomenon came into existence, something or some familiar energy arose that was pulling me towards the canal, and here near the canal was an embankment of trees, bushes and brambles. I tried to divert my mind to something else but I didn’t succeed. The pull was like a magnet it became stronger and stronger. The whole situation was out of my control, I couldn’t stay any longer and it became impossible! A gentle silence hung over the bank of the trees, I was thrilled by the place! it was a perfect place. My head was exploding with great force. I had never experienced this phenomenon before. Suddenly I lost all consciousness and dropped to the ground.” About enlightenment he said “Enlightenment has always been sudden, nothing can really be said about enlightenment. There are no words to describe what is happening. The experience is far deeper than the words. The word enlightenment comes close to the experience but the closer comes blissfulness. Then even closer the word ecstasy. But beyond that there are no words. The experience is far deeper than ecstasy itself. Nothing can be said about enlightenment because all you know is from the outside. Enlightenment is from within. Once you are enlightened it is impossible for your enlightenment to fade. You wouldn’t have to put a veil over your face the way Moses did, because enlightenment is not achieved and there is no technique that can bring enlightenment in existence. This is a great opportunity for us to learn. Now we can understand that Moses wasn’t enlightened. Whatever Moses did was an effort to achieve and the essence to that is sadness. Paul describes his efforts in the Bible. He goes on saying ‘Moses has spent forty days in the Mountain of Sinai, but what ever happened it was temporary.’ For an example his face began to radiate, reflect light, but sadly it was all temporary. Enlightenment isn’t temporary. Nor is it a dream the way Prophet Isaiah described. Enlightenment is a stage of awareness. For an example dreams only come into existence while you’re asleep. There is no possibility of dreams coming into existence whilst your wide-awake. You can’t be hallucinated because there is an experience. Dreaming is hallucinating, creating imaginations, and creating imaginations is a stage of fiction. Enlightenment is beyond hallucination. You will not be hallucinated the way the Bible records Elijah, the Prophet’s events that he heard still small of God but saw nothing. Jesus said ‘God is like love’ Why has Jesus said this? Because nothing can be said about love. The only way to know is to become a lover. But the lover has to disappear, love can only be known when you love absolutely.” “From this nightmare coming back into existence my body was so light, light as a feather. I was loosing gravity. Some energy was elevating me. I can’t elaborate any more. It was happening I could not prevent it. It was out of my control. I was trying to avoid it. I had broken through the phenomenal. I was absolutely drunk on the divine, so drowned, and so drunk, in the beatitude of realization. Divine was flourish. I was intoxicated with divine. The ecstasy was uncontrollable; I was ruptured into eternal bliss. Sant Mani Singh had an amazing naïve character and would say “I am a very simple man. As a matter of fact, very ordinary, capable of making mistakes, don’t have any qualities of any kind, I have something to be proud of, a ray of light penetrated upon me.” His honorable beloved Mani Singh, had not just illuminated us on enlightenment but also talked on various other subjects; which in the age of darkness have been misunderstood because of our lack of intelligence. Some of these are elaborated upon briefly below. Love In San Francisco, California he said “What is love? It is madness, where you loose consciousness, the greatest drug even that exists on Earth. The only difference is it’s an inner chemistry. Love is crucifixion. Only love is the light in which life becomes known, what we call resurrection. Only in love are you truly transformed. In reality you will only feel life when you are in love. Love opens windows towards the beyond. The love people talk about is the phenomenon of the mind. The love of the mind is like a dream because it is from the mind and only the mind can dream and the dream can’t be reality. This love cannot be eternal. So what is eternal love? When love comes out of mediation, it’s qualities are different from the ones of the mind. The love of the mind – thee essence of it is foolishness. You fall in love, the love of meditation, thee essence is wisdom, you rise in love. Wisdom can’t be attained. You can gather as much knowledge, learn the scriptures by heart, still there will be no wisdom. Wisdom is that which liberates you. In this love there is a quality, just as a light surrounds the flame. The quality of love surrounds you. Whoever comes close, he/she will be enchanted, enriched, and this love of quality will shower around you. This is the real longing of the heart. Remember, once a person starts feigning, feigning is a stage of pseudo living. His whole life becomes false because love is the centre of life. Love is the ultimate purpose of life – the destiny of life.” Then he said, “First you have to love yourself. Only then can you radiate and reach to others. When you are in love, it is illogical. There is no logic, no reason. It’s irrational, that is why liking has nothing to do with loving, Liking has logic, there are many reasons as to why you like a person. Generations and generations have misunderstood the word love. Automatically they start thinking about sex, without them even realizing that sex has nothing to do with love.” Then he goes on describing the phenomenon of love. “love is like a spring breeze. It comes and when it comes it brings a tremendous fragrance, the Odor of Sanctify. It gives you the feeling that it will remain forever. The feeling is so strong that you cannot doubt it. This love is divine. Love has always been God expressing himself. Love is the alchemy, where there is love, ego doesn’t exist. That’s what I always said, love is spiritual and only love can change lives. Only in love is there reconciliation and a great transformation. That is why a man of love faces more difficulties. That is the fundamental fact of life. Where there is no love, life is about to move smoothly. When asked if one can dissolve with another he replied, “When you burn two lamps in a room, they meet. The light meets. You can’t divide the first light from the second light. Still there is a difference. You can bring them close, even then their flames will remain different. The light will dissolve into each other. You can’t melt into each other. Only your light can melt in the other – your outer aura.” God When asked about God at Orange County, California, sympathetically he replied, “You can’t say its reality. You certainly can’t say it’s a fiction because something exists. That something needs to be experimented. Nothing can be said about God. You can study about God but nothing has been known because all you know is from the outside, what we would call external. Until you enter from within, the internal can’t be known. By studying about God, you will miss the whole concept and the consequence to that is that you are left with knowledge only. To know is to enter the kingdom, to become one with eternity. Knowledge is from the outside and has nothing what so ever to do with God. Because God is happening.” “Nothing is hidden from God because God is the inside of everything. The inside knows all. You can hide something from others, but you can’t hide it from yourself. And it is there that God is hidden.” He went on to say “Why have we invented so many names for God? There must be a certain reason, because God cannot be named, a name can easily be changed, but God remains the same. So why has God been addressed? Because there are moments when you would like to scream out your inner feelings to God in sheer joy. Some name is needed. Muslim Sufis invented ninety-nine names of God that are so beautiful, but why not a hundred? Ninety-nine looks a bit incomplete. There is a certain reason the hundredth name is kept silent and that is the true name of God, which of course can’t be uttered. That is why Guru Nanak said ‘Satnam’. Your name is thee truth. But in reality you can’t utter it because it will lose its’ beauty. It remains un-uttered at the deepest core of the heart. What is God’s true name? Nobody knows that all the names are man’s creation. The true name of God is the existence that surrounds you.” How can one call Him by all His names? The wise give him names according to His manifestations – Jap Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji He goes on saying. “those kind (the irreligious) of people haven’t known anything of spiritual experience. They’ve never felt any presence of God. The only way to receive God is to drop all your searching and seeking. The real question is recognition, not search, and the only way to know God is to live God.” For further information please pm the originator of the topic baba jees picture at the astaan in smethwick