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I think you missed the point the OP made about him having a hunch that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji might be taken to the Banqueting Hall. Don't fall into the trap that people like Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction set for us. Nobody cares who marries who. Its nobody's business and we couldn't care less. The only thing we say is don't perform shams, lies and disrespect to our living Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Therefore, have these marriages where they belong, i.e the Registry Office.

Yup correct 100%. They were assassins sent by the Niwab of Sirhind I believe. The Niwab was extremely Jealous of the good relationship Guru Sahib had with the emperor at the time, he feared that his own power and influence would be undermined. Guru Sahib was attacked by 2 assassins. The first one wounded Guru Sahib, the wound under normal circumstances would have killed anyone but Guru Sahib swiftly killed his assassin. While the other one fled. I believe the Singhs that were with Guru Sahib caught him and killed him as well. An English Physican was called by the Emperor to treat Guru Sahib's wound. The wound was sealed but since Guru Sahib was a Brahmgyani he knew that it wasn't permanent. When the wound reopened Guru Sahib then appointed Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru. This is where things get a bit mixed up for some people. Some Sikhs claim that Guru Sahib Ji had a Funeral Pyaree built and told all of his Sikhs to look away. as he went inside, I can't remember or find the exactness. But either one of the Singh lit the Pyaree or it self combusted I believe. Anyways the flames roared and eventually when it died down they found a small Kirpan there. Most people assumed that Guru Sahib had actually left to Sach Khand along with his form just like Guru Nanak Dev Ji. However a Sikh Bhai Sangat Singh Ji asked why people were disheartened. When he was informed of Guru Sahib's departure he looked confused, As he had Just met Guru Sahib earlier on and had spoken to and then taken Prashad from Guru Sahib. This left the Sangat confused. I believe the moral of this was that Guru Sahib will aid Sikhs whenever they need his help. His Physical form is gone but his Spiritual form still roams the earth (god I make it sound like he's a ghost, he's not lol). He'll be there for you whenever you need him. In any form, in any shape, we may not know it, we may not even see it but he is there. There are even Historical accounts of Guru Sahib appearing to certain Sikhs and even non-sikhs I believe.

It is the generally thought that the older generation has wisdom and experience. Being from Punjab, they are very well versed in the art of politics and dynasty building. It comes from the environment they were brought up in. I have come to the realisation that India is the land of the billion hustlers. The rapper 50 cent talks about being from the ghetto and learning to hustle, the Subcontinent is one giant ghetto. They leave Punjab because there is too much competition in the art of hustling and they cannot empire build so they leave for virgin lands where they are given those opportunities. The problem with their politicking in Gurdwarae is that it is done to maintain their fiefdoms. If they are grooming the next generation such as their children then we would need to find alternatives.

We need to stay strong in our convictions. This kalyugi world will pressure us to compromise on our Rahit and principles and Sikhi, but we need to stay strong. This issue should have been tackled by our previous generations who came ro the west. But they were too busy getting settled in. Now that we their children are settled we cannot ignore this Manmat any longer. The longer we ignore it the more difficult it will be to tackle it in future. Enough damage has occurred by letting this inter faith anand karaj manmat to continue for so long. Now is the time for damage control.

Is any1 else getting sick and tired of these hippies constantly pullin out the classic line "oh but the gurdwara has 4 doors......."? Ok so what if a rastafarian comes into a gurdwara, and starts lightin a ganja/marijuana ciggarette? No doubt these liberal hippies will naturally object to the rasta lightin up, but then the rasta throws it in their face, n pulls out "wait y cant i smoke my spliff in here? I thought this place has 4 doors?" Or wat if a muslim bring halal lamb for the langar as an offering and is told that this is not permissable in the gurdwara? He then pulls out the line "y cant u guys accept my lamb for ur langar? I thought this place has 4 doors?" Thats wat these hippies r asking for, a complete breach of gurdwara n sikhi regulations, to fit their manmat! Got the nerve to make the guru change rules for them. Dont worry singhs/kaurs, it wont be long till gay marriages r up next, then alcohol bein demanded to wash down langar soon. Fact is every1 is allowed in the gurus house, and can make/eat langar, can sleep inside, do kirtan, do meditation, use library, gym etc. BUT, wen it comes to sikh ceremonies, they r only for sikhs. Sikhi has 4 ceremonies, baby naming, anand karaj, amrit sanchar and funeral.

That's why it's imperative we encourage critical thinking and education for young Sikhs so they can make up their own mind, instead of relying on celebrities or lesser sorts to "guide" youngsters. We should be our own role models. Never pin hopes on somwthing as fallible as Man. It will never end well.

Fair enough.

A Patit is someone who has taken Amrit and then broken Rehat. Someone simply born in a Sikh family (not taken Pahul) that cuts his hair does not become an apostate - patit.

See it's always the committee members who allow this manmat to continue. Good job exposing this thug. Such thugs need to be named and shamed. He has no shame making casteist slurs and using derogatory language in the Gurdwara.

Open question, is it possible to have an Anand Karaj without signing a marriage contract or having a government registrar present? That sounds like the ideal to me. Your marriage is sanctified by your Guru, and you aren't subject to the anti-male legal clauses of marriage should you choose to divorce later on. Honestly though, I'm a bit flabbergasted that men continue to get hitched when they know that there is a 50% chance that they will eventually get divorced and lose their kids and half their junk. If you were skydiving and you were told that there was a 50% chance your parachute wouldn't open, would you take the jump?

With the exception of the brief interlude from the 80's to the 90's, almost all noteworthy Sikh institutions have been controlled by elderly men since the beginning of the 20th century. This includes Gurdware. In the United Kingdom, most of these old men are first generation immigrants. They arrived on these shores virtually peniless and their chief object upon arrival was to accumulate money. All other considerations were secondary. They couldn't have been particularly devout as most neglected to raise their children as Gursikhs either due to work or plain indifference. We are still dealing with the fallout of their complacency today. Is it any wonder that the observance of Sikhi is so ramshackle within Guru-Ghars, that interfaith Anand Karajs are permitted for money's sake, when the men managing them spent the formative first halves of their lives consumed by the desire to make money? All the committee members are decrepit old boys, and all the raagis/granthis seem to be relatively young. We've established before on this forum that a lot of these Granthis object to the idea of officiating interfaith marriages in Maharaj's Hazoori, but are forced to because they are dependent for their livelihood on the greedy old men in the committee. Look at how animated the Sikh qaum was in the 80's, look at how much was accomplished when ascendancy was snatched away from the corrupt old plutocrats and invested in young men like Sant Baba Jarnail Singh and the Jhujaroo Singhs. Their blood ran hot with the passionate fire of youth. Where was this same passion from the reptilian old men who surrendered Punjab to be dismembered in 1947, and again in 1966? Where is it when they allow beadbi to take place in Maharaj's Hazoori? Why do we allow our elders to run Gurdware in the belief that their ancientness somehow better qualifies them for the job? It seems to me that obeying our elders is precisely what got us into this mess. Most of the bazurgs with whom I am personally acquainted know pretty much nothing about Sikhi, Gurmat, Gurbani, or anything for that matter. They are also usually greedy, wasting away the last few years of their life obsessing over money and inheritance. Why should we listen to them? Things would be better if the young men and women were in charge. *I don't mean to criticize all of them. Just most of them.*

Look at the southall gurdwaras, they use kabaddi players and genuine thugs to scare away chardi kalah sikh youngsters, who dream to make the gurughar a better place. A mafia type system is indeed running in various gurdwaras in uk, make no mistake. They use the police to their own good with false allegations etc.

I'm not exaggerating when I say there's a couple of Gurdwara committees I've observed growing up that wouldn't be too far off the Corleone family.

What I find even more disturbing are the young male relatives and acquaintances of these old timers who've been groomed to follow in their footsteps, like heirs to the empire. So, anyone expecting a radical shift in attitudes when these older gentlemen begin to depart this earth will be greatly disappointed. They've made provisions that all those decades of hard work will not go to waste. I keep saying the true threat to the long-term survival of Sikhi are not external threats, but it's the enemy within.

I have also seen he wears a large kara. If he wants to keep turban and hair as part of his fashion, what is the need for a large kara. I do believe he has the freedom to do as he pleases but they are being careless in their choices and sometimes I believe they purposely want to send out mixed messages.

Exactly

And who else could answer that question other than you who is an expert in the caste system. Lol

Gurbani does not promote the practice of Hinduism. Worshipping hindu gods, upholding your caste beliefs are completely against sikhi. You only need to read Gurbani to understand this. Gurbani has rejected hindu beliefs and quoted the gods as being bound to death like you and me, yet you are here insisting your hindu beliefs are a part of sikhi. Please explain where Guru Sahib encouraged the practice of Hinduism. Your hindu superstitions will only make you live further in the illusion you are living in now.

Keep adoring "your indigenous culture" and stay faithful to it. Why are wasting your time on a Sikh forum when you have heaps of your own cultural forums where you can carry on propagating your caste system, worship of your millions of devi devtaas and bnefits of having a dip in your ganga devi maa.

Stop banging your head against the wall. He will never understand no matter what you tell him.

I'm sorry but are you now saying there is more than one way to Pronounce Ekonankar? if you are then you're completely disregarding the method Our Guru Sahib Prescribed. Good then stop asserting Om and EkOnankar are the same thing, their different concepts . When Guru Sahib pointed out they were not. Learned scholars and our Guru Sahib told us they were different. But As usual you'll dispute everything including Gurbani and everyone else as you think your the 100% right. Why on earth are you calling yourself a sikh lol. If you think the Ganges can wash your sins go and lie in it all your life. You'll leave this life pure lmao.

Jigyasu Jee, all what you ask about, is just the mind playing tricks on you, to shake your faith so that may not do dhyan on Wahiguru. This is how the mind with the aid of other tricks also, cheats the jeeva, the soul...as in this way it ensures the continue of the creation. But with Wahiguru Akal Purkh´s grace, we have to remind ourselves by looking at the "kara", that this is how our Guru Sahibans wants us to become strong as, when dealing with faith and devotion in Him. One has to tell one´s mind, hey look, I am no more going to listen to any of your nonsense. I have given myself to Wahiguru, all the past countless births have been in a waste as I have danced to your tunes, so beware, this birth I am going to give it in the dedication of devotion of my beloved Wahiguru, do what you may, I am not going to leave His "pallav", His Name. Even if you threaten me by making me feel my life is in danger or useless, but nevertheless, I know I have placed myself in His lap, so there is nothing to fear, and I warn you, if you trouble me, then my Rakhwala will also make you pure, and take you also to Sach Khand. So think it seriously, do you want your creation to go on or not? It is your choice. Any how by the way, Wahiguru is my only choice. Bahut janam vichurey teh Madhav, ehe janam Tumare lekhey. Jigyasu jee, sometimes we have to be brave and talk with our mind, in order to contol it, otherwise it just bullies us with ignorance or agyanta. Jigyasu jee, it is for this very purpose of our self defense, that the Guru Sahibans have left the pure paviter Bani for us. So brother it is just to be wise, to use it for our benefit and spiritual uplift. Karmas have terrible effects on us, and we know it is all our fault somewhere though we are not consciouss of it, and the purpose of these effects on us are just to amend us, for our betterment. I know how hard it is, I believe someone in your state, I believe even myself would do so, that preaching others is very easy, but going through it is very difficult. But brother, that is why it is said, remember Him in your good times, then bad times if ever, can be faced cheerfully. This is like, if we learn to swim(His chintan), then if by chance we fall into a river, we can swim and come out with some effort. But on the contrary, if one does not how to swim and falls in the river, and one is told to swim, how can that person ever float and come out(His chintan/His dhyan)? This means when one is going through tough times, and one is told to pray or devote ourselves to Him, it will be very difficult, as the the mind is already restless and unable to concentrate on Him ... That is why it is beautifully said said: Simran se sukh hout hae, simran se dukh jaae, jo sukh mein simran kare, dukh kae ho hoe. . You see, with one´s love and faith for His Lotus Feet, one´s destiny may not change, but one definetely gets, the help, the support from within, to face those karmas. As once destiny is designed even much before one´s coming into life. So brother if ever I can suggest you anything, it is nothing but accept yourself as you are, know your plus and minus points, it means your limitations and slowly try to overcome them, and above all keep your dhyan at His Charan Kamal, through His Naam Simran in all circumstances. May God bless you. Sat Sree Akal.

Totally agree with jagsaw's reply. Sometime our people dont understand when is the time to stand united and strong.

With the help of sikhsangat (watching/reading/learning), we saw the dire need of community prachar or some sort of school system where we can give basic sikhi education to upcoming generation. Finally after going thru 10+years here, me and my close friends decided to take lease on a 3000 sqft building to run the community center for dharmic purposes. It wouldn't have been possible if sangat here didn't share their views on important issues. This is one small example.

Preet ji Meri perspective hai hukam ch rena, te apne Guruji di Gurbani tho sikhna. Jo mere Guruji Di perspective a ji una nal main sehmet a.

Big_tera ji it does make a difference to real world as we are living in real world and real people not robots read from here. We are learning from each other, which many many people read as guests if not as members. This is one form of platform where people, including me can read others views and knowledge and understand what Sikhi is, and not have to wonder what is right or wrong as we are able to make our decision of understand ourselves based on knowledge and experiences of others. I think you would be surprised as to who reads posts on here, a wide diversity have access to the Internet, and only with media one is able to get their points across for awareness. Thus awareness has an impact on people's thinking, which unlike others that confuse, or lead people in wrong direction, as they don't have a platform like this to learn from ji.

OK, so let me get this straight: Even if this man stood on a platform of closing down libraries, cutting expenditure on health and education, corporal punishment, exterminating the poor, spending billions on wars in Iraq, gassing Jews, banning breasfeeding and banning cycle lanes you'd still vote for him purely because he has a long beard and dastar ?????

Do you not think you're taking this too seriously? Sure he's not behaving as he ought to, and his music is awful, but he hardly deserves to be sparked on sight.

First of all, DTF, I've already explained succintly on this very thread how one is not allowed to have a wedding in a Christian Church without first confirming one's Christianity. Indeed, the Pope, eastern Orthodox Priests and even our own Anglican / Episcopalan Archbishop of Canterbury quotes Mark 10.8 in justifying this ban: 'Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness?' i.e the Christian Church sees you and me as 'lawless' people...i.e unrighteous people simply because we are Sikhs and thus would not allow us to marry in a Church. Our Sikhi scriptures (Gurbani) however, are full of nothing but love....and thats the difference between Sikhi and the other faiths in that the other faiths are full of fear of a vengefull god whereas Sikhi is full of love for a loving God. But where's Bobby Friction's speech about how all Christians are "thugs" for not letting a Sikh get married in a Church ? Where's Bobby Friction's or Sunny Hundals's news article about the Archbishop of Canterbury being a member of the "Taliban" for adhering to what their faith says ? If Bobby Friction is a DJ how come his mouth gets numb when these issues come up? If Sunny Hundal is a journalist who, by definition, should research his subject matter, how come he loses his pen when the issue of Jews, Christians and Muslims come up And lets not even go deep into a conversation about the Jews because before letting him marry a Jewish girl in a Synagogue they will not only ask the groom to first confirm that he is indeed Jewish they will also do a background check ensuring his father and grandfather were also Jewish. So, never mind letting a Jewish girl marry a jamaican in a Synangogue the Jews won't even be satisfied if the jamaican says he's a Jew and so was his mother. The Synagogue will embark on a 3 generation backgound check before it'll allow her to have a Jewish wedding the synagogue. i.e even though the Jamaican was born a Jew and has always practices Judaism they will insist he proves it before they sanction a wedding in the Synagogue. Otherwise, as they are are nice poeple like us, they will tell them both to get married in a Registry Office because taking Jahova's name in vain is not a light hearted photo opportunity matter. And remember DTF, in terms of your argument about numbers and assimilation etc....the problem is 1000% worse among the Jews than it is for us. So where's Bobby Friction's diatribe describing all Jewish people as "Taliban" and "thugs" ? Where's Sunny Hundal's voice when it comes to the Christians and Jews who are even stricter than us when it comes to marriage in a place of worship ? Why do their loud lion like voices suddenly get so weak and timid when it comes to questions like this ? The answer is because these questions are never allowed to be put to them and the reason is because people like you distort this simple issue into a another wider irrelevant issue that both Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal find easy to answer. Now, the last time I told you Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are Terrorists you replied with a 'LOL', indicating your leart-hearted response to this assertion. But I'll put it to you again : The very definition of a Terrorist is one who uses intimidation and bullying to get his way. Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are trying to terrorise us...bully us...intimidate us....by calling us "thugs" and the "Taliban" for having a policy that is actually far less severe than the Jews and Christians. That is terrorism pure and simple.

The thing is he works for what is essentially still a publicly funded organisation and it's not the first time he's opened his mouth like this, had he or his bedfellow Nihal made the same comments about the Muslim community they would have been out of a job a long time ago, even more disappointing is the fact the Friction is actually from a Sikh family and has no grasp of what his religion teaches (whether he practises it or not is irrelevant). It's fine saying let the idiots speak but the problem is this particular <banned word filter activated> has a public platform, he has over 30k followers on twitter so any statement he makes will reach a wide audience, he made a statement on Facebook yesterday explaining his comment and how he should be allowed to express his views on his own private Facebook account, i agree with that but it doesn't mean you loose all your common sense when making comments. I don't really understand why people are calling for him to be sacked but i do think he needs to apologise for comparing those who stopped the wedding to the Taliban.

Does the mainstream media peruse this forum with bated breath looking to weaponize the things we say? Our words hardly carry that much clout. I haven't perceived these racial undertones you're speaking about Jagsaw. This discussion has been centered on confessional matters. I don't care whether somebody wants to marry a punjabi man or a black man or a white man or a chinese man in a Guru Ghar, So long as he is a Guru Ka Sikh. Otherwise, it should not be allowed. This goes for all those Punjabi nastiks out there too.

^ Him....DTF.. Blame him !!! This week, when this issue is discussed to death in the media and radio etc and the whole world sees us Sikhs as racist intolerants remember how it was DTF that deliberately ensured the debate the media would get our side of the story from was rigged in such a way that our simple side of the story was not allowed to be articulated....i.e the media would never hear it. Remember the part DTF had in that. Seriously now DTF, re-read this whole thread from beginning to end. Its clear you've been on some personal mission to ensure Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal win the argument. I don't know what your motive for that has been, it could be a personal family matter it could be political....but know this: This debate could have armed us Sikhs in the upcoming media and radio debates or it could have armed Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal. You've gone out of your way here to quickly supress all sides of the Sikh's story and arm Sunny and Bobby. I know what you're up to here.

Why must education be through Anand Karaj? Why can't one learn without getting married? Do you get married in order to complete your degree? If the Non Sikh is unwilling to convert at the time of the marriage, what makes you think they will convert later? You're just fooling yourself.

Wouldn't you want to know where he stands on issues such as the welfare state, free healthcare, foreign policy, education, care of the elderly, public services etc first ????

Yup I saw those remedies too but didn't have much time to read the rest or in detail. One cannot achieve something through force, it's Gods grace that gives one something. ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥ आखणि जोरु चुपै नह जोरु ॥ Ākẖaṇ jor cẖupai nah jor. No power to speak, no power to keep silent. ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ ॥ जोरु न मंगणि देणि न जोरु ॥ Jor na mangaṇ ḏeṇ na jor. No power to beg, no power to give. ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥ जोरु न जीवणि मरणि नह जोरु ॥ Jor na jīvaṇ maraṇ nah jor. No power to live, no power to die. ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥ जोरु न राजि मालि मनि सोरु ॥ Jor na rāj māl man sor. No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers. ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ जोरु न सुरती गिआनि वीचारि ॥ Jor na surṯī gi▫ān vīcẖār. No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation. ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ जोरु न जुगती छुटै संसारु ॥ Jor na jugṯī cẖẖutai sansār. No power to find the way to escape from the world. ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ जिसु हथि जोरु करि वेखै सोइ ॥ Jis hath jor kar vekẖai so▫e. He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all. ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੩੩॥ नानक उतमु नीचु न कोइ ॥३३॥ Nānak uṯam nīcẖ na ko▫e. ||33|| O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

Meet Rehana, a Kurdish female fighter who has allegedly killed over 100 members of Islamic State (ISIS) during the fight over the town of Kobani. The fighter, known only as Rehana, was named in a tweet which has already been shared thousands of times since it was initially sent on 13 October. Journalist Pawan Durani tweeted a photo of Rehana and encouraged others to share it as well. Rehana has killed more than a hundred #ISIS terrorists in #Kobane, the photos caption reads. [Retweet] and make her famous for her bravery. Rumors are soaring that Rehana was possibly captured and killed by Islamic State militants, but the claim has yet to be confirmed. No matter what, Rehana has become truly a hero in social media, and fans are making sure that her bravery should not go unnoticed. Shes just one of many female Kurdish fighters. However, reports say that the news of Rehana's death and reports claiming she single-handedly killed over 100 ISIS jihadists cannot be independently verified. Many Kurdish women are known for their bravery and fighting skills after various reported incidents where they showed great strength while attacking the militants belonging to the dreaded Islamic State organisation. Photo courtesy: Twitter http://www.sify.com/news/meet-the-woman-who-killed-over-100-isis-men-news-national-okrlgEcihibhh.html

Let's get the above answered 1st! :biggrin2:

Kindly show me and the rest of the forum, exactly where and which Words have been changed/replaced an wrongly misinterpreted contrary to gurmat ?? As far as I and other readers know, we ALL accept and agree that the meaning of gurbani and it's words can have deeper, esoteric and more profound meanings as one dwells deeper with contemplation alongside growth. This growth comes in line with both spiritual gyan, knowledge and love, but if genuine, it will always be as per gurmat !! So, please specify exactly where the misleading and anti-gurmat translation is ?? We all await a simplified explanatory response !

Time after time, you keep on denying the reality of Mahima in the Bani, by diverting the attention of the Sangat to useless and baseless points, but which are your own delusions. But never mind, His Mahima is infinite, and that does not mean, that you can not sing His Glory....other thing is if one can ever finish singing His Mahima. These are 2 different things. Each and every time, you keep on twisting the meaning of the Bani, just because of your ego and jealousy mainly.... but never mind, His Mahima is so powerful, that it will sure one day enter your heart and your mind. Our sangat here is much more intelligent than what you take them to be, so do not try to be oversmart, do not play with the Bani with your own manmukh misinterpretations. There are infinte examples from the Bani, of His Mahima, His vadeeayee, His greatness, and as such, following are the words of Ninth Patshahee: ਗੁਨ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਾਇਓ ਨਹੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਕਾਰਥ ਕੀਨੁ Gun Gobindh Gaaeiou Nehee Janam Akaarathh Keen गुन गोबिंद गाइओ नही जनमु अकारथ कीनु If you do not sing the Praises of the Lord, your life is rendered useless. 60442 ਸਲੋਕ ਵਾਰਾਂ ਤੇ ਵਧੀਕ (ਮ: ੯) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੪੨੬ ਪੰ. ੧੦ Salok Guru Teg Bahadur Now on one side we have our Teg Bhadaur Maharaj, who says, if you do not sing the Glory of the Lord(Wahiguru), you have wasted your life. And on the other side you alone, are facing our Guru Sahibans, with your misinterpretations, by saying His Mahima is undescribable. Don´t you feel even a little bit of shame, for this your misbehaviour, of misinterpretation and your negative effects on the younger generations, who are not mature yet, are growing in spirituality and starting to love and live in Gurmat. Gyan can not be copied as you say, because if it was so, you would have some tons of it by now, and you would not be saying the nonsense, which keep on doing and saying, with your mischiefs. Then other thing, Nam is only one power, it is the same power operating in me, you, or in the donkeys.... Nam is not a word, which you say, is from Satguru Jee or from somebody else. Nam is a conscious power, not a word or words in any particular language wriiten or spoken. You, with all your unlogic interpretations, you are revealing your own shortcomings, as in the form of your so called"smartness and knowledge" Be humble, do not be oversmart with your own presumptions, you have that capacity and capability, so take the most of it by putting it into practice, and be truthful. Your main problem is your ego, otherwise you are a good person. May God bless you.

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥ असटपदी ॥ Ashtapadee: ਬਡਭਾਗੀ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ बडभागी ते जन जग माहि ॥ Very fortunate are those humble beings in this world, ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਹਿ ॥ सदा सदा हरि के गुन गाहि ॥ who sing the Glorious Praises(Mahima) of Hari(Wahiguru), forever and ever. Here once again, there is a proof from our Guru Jee, who is saying, that very fortunate are those beings, who sing the Glorious Praises = Wahiguru´s Mahima. That also not from now on, nor since yesterday, but since ever and forever. One must be possesed by some evil really, because to avoid listening or singing Hi Mahima is really a very bad sin. Not only that, that you avoid and do not accept this fact, this reality, (which is not mine, but of our Guru Sahibans), and you induce others to believe your nonsense, with your own ego, your own hankar,and your arrogance, your frustration. On the contrary, our Guru Sahibans say, that not only it is possible, but, it is advisable to do so, because it makes one receptive to His grace, to become a wadbhagee. Further on in the same bani, Guru Jee tells us: ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖੀ ॥ मनि तनि मुखि बोलहि हरि मुखी ॥ Those who speak of Hari in thought, word and deed (Wahiguru Kee Mahima)- ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੀ ॥ सदा सदा जानहु ते सुखी ॥ know that they are peaceful and happy, forever and ever. Our Guru Sahibans, invite us to sing His mahima, His Glory. And you like a enemy of the Bani, says, and make others believe that, that it is not possible. Who knows more, our Guru Sahibans, or a shameless person like you? Who(you) knows only, to create confussions among the sangat,and hatred, or in one word : disharmony. And this is a devlish task. All your words, attitude, thinking ..... is totally against Gurmat May He bless you, to make you at least a good person, so that you may sing His Mahima, read His Mahima, and listen His Mahima, and become a wadbhagee as per the Bani above. Sat Sree Akal

These words of the poster above are full of humanity, of love, of forgiveness, of truth...... These words and feelings of the poster below, as usual; are full of hatred, of negativity, of ignorance, of ego, of arrogance, corrupted thinking.... So naturally, what one has inside, that is the output...and in this case is our brother Balbir Jee. But anyhow, may Wahiguru bless Him with love, humility, and capacity to sing and listen His Mahima...

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ Ikoankaar Sathnaam Karathaa Purakh Nirabho Niravair Akaal Moorath Ajoonee Saibhan Gurprasaadh ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि One Universal Creator God, TheName Is Truth, Creative Being Personified No Fear No Hatred He is beyond time Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace He is realized ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ Aadh Sach Jugaadh Sach आदि सचु जुगादि सचु True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages. ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ Hai Bhee Sach Naanak Hosee Bhee Sach है भी सचु नानक होसी भी सचु True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ Sochai Soch N Hovee Jae Sochee Lakh Vaar सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times. ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ Chupai Chup N Hovee Jae Laae Rehaa Liv Thaar चुपै चुप न होवई जे लाइ रहा लिव तार By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within. ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ Bhukhiaa Bhukh N Outharee Jae Bannaa Pureeaa Bhaar भुखिआ भुख न उतरी जे बंना पुरीआ भार The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods. ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ Sehas Siaanapaa Lakh Hohi Th Eik N Chalai Naal सहस सिआणपा लख होहि त इक न चलै नालि Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end. ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ Kiv Sachiaaraa Hoeeai Kiv Koorrai Thuttai Paal किव सचिआरा होईऐ किव कूड़ै तुटै पालि So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ Hukam Rajaaee Chalanaa Naanak Likhiaa Naal हुकमि रजाई चलणा नानक लिखिआ नालि O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. If all this Mahima from Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj in the above lines is not enough for you, let me know, I will write you down all the 1430 pages..... you are afraid of long posts, but then here you will have to drink the Amrit from all the Angs of the Bani.... maybe then, your arrogance, your malice, your ego is thus washed away... and makes you humbler, sincere, gunvaant(means full of virtues)... May God bless you Balbir Jee.

Please provide me one reference where our Gurus have said that we should love or we can love. is there a reference where they say we should NOT love ???? :stupidme: I will tell you the ONLY reference that I feel will answer ALL your scholarly demanding proofs and questions ? That reference answer is - ੴ To me, this is the FIRST word and the LAST word for everything. I'm sorry, I have no interest in debating with you or trying to provide more references to back up my statements. If anyone doesn't like or understand any positive message in my quotes, then I'm afraid they shall have to look elsewhere ! Because, I really cannot afford to waste my energy that ends up draining me spiritually. :ohno: I am a bad man that is simply trying to love and respect all without 'poking' others. I should rather poke myself, after I eventually find myself. Let me be on my inner journey and I hope you can find yourself for your own inner quest. Sat sri akal and God bless

There is a saying going like this: There is no greater blind, who does not want to see. Not that he/she can not see, but refuses to see, because he is stuck on personal ego, or even personal observations or interpretations. All the posts referred above on the Mahima of Wahiguru, are just a infinitesimal greatness, of His infinite virtues, and are from the angs of Guru Jee. Though it has been said, that nothing new was created or added by me, because we are moorakhs compared to our Guru Sahibans, who left the Bani for us, so that we get ideas(though limited) of how great He is. And this job none other than our Guru Sahibans or Gurmukhs could have done, as they have a personal experience of that infinite being, namely Wahiguru, while we just talk on presumptions or just guessing, unless we too do the jugtee of revealing Him within us, as per Nam Simran. So, if somebody has a thick veil of ego and arrogance, before his eyes, naturally he will deny all His Mahima. And for that purpose, again I am going to pour out His mahima, with the support of the Amrit Bani, in the Guru Granth Sahib. In Raag Gauree, Fifth Patshahee, describes some of His infintes virtues using the limited extensions of words, because it is by words, that we can listen, and understand to an extent. This Shabad describes the very topics of this thread: which are Wahiguru, Nam and His Gurmukhs. And all of these are described perfectly by Fifth Patshahee in the following lines agam roop kaa man meh thaanaa. The Lord(Wahiguru) of Unfathomable Form has His Place in the mind. First of all, He is talking about the form of Wahiguru as Agam Roop, which by itself is His description, otherwise He is unfathomable. gur parsaad kinai virlai jaanaa. By Guru's Grace, a rare few come to understand this. Then He is telling us, that by Guru´s Grace, a very few come to understand this, others wander in debates and discussions or even worse, deny His Mahima or His existence. anhat banee thaan niraalaa. The unstruck melody of the Guru's Bani vibrates in that most special place. taa kee Dhun mohay gopaalaa. The Lord of the World is fascinated with this melody. Then He is telling us something of Sach Khand and the owner Lord of Sach Khand. He is saying that the Anhad Bani of Nam is being played there unstruck, means non stop. And going a little bit further, He is telling us, that, that very Akal Purukh, is absorbed, is fascinated with that Divine melody of Nam. And in some lines atfer, He tells us, the importance and heights of the Gurmukhs, sadhoos, Sant Janas, Guru sahibans, Bhagats: paarbarahm kay sangee santaa. there, the Saints dwell, in the Company of the Supreme Lord God. So we can see, in just few lines and in a simple manner, Fifth Patshahee, has decribed, the Mahima of Wahiguru, of Nam, and His Gurmukhs. If again, this descrition is not in words of Wahiguru, from Sree Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, then what is it? We are so egoistic, so much self centered about ourselves, that even after reading and listening His mahima, through the pure paviter Bani of our Guru Sahibans we say: no no, that is nothing, this is not mahima, because nobody can do so. We are so mean and low, we pput ourselves even befor our very Guru Sahibans, who are the very embodiment of wahiguru Akal Purukh, to th extent that we question and doubt their words of His Mahima..... shame on those, who are so closed minded! There are many many more Shabads, which describe the mahima, the greatness of Wahiguru. Read any Bani, any Shabd, it is nothing but His Mahima. Starting from the vey mool mantar, it describes the unique qualities of Wahiguru, and describing His qualities, His virtues, is nothing but His Mahima. Wah wah Sachay Badshah.

Thanks luckysingh99, for such a inspiring and a mature reply, which is full of love and humanity. May God bless you Sat Sree Akal.

Does someone think that God will judge them on how they differentiate between Sadhoo and gurmukh ? The only judgment as far as i understand is on How much we love both a sadhoo and gurmukh ! God is love and love is god itself. The 'Waheguru' is the praise to GURU- the one that leads from Dark to Light and more importantly from Ignorance to Knowledge and Gyan. The Light= is all about Love The Gyan= is about how to Love all. Yes, Bablbirji his Mahima cannot be described. Because we don't even understand on how to love all so that we may experience the Truth of PURE love which is the Divine Love felt and experienced from and within God himself. Ignorance is all from NOT loving enough. Too easily, we choose to love our self egos and close ones and will even claim that we love our parents, children, partners..etc.. so so much and more than anything ! BUT, then WHY do we still suffer and have shortcomings when all this love from the bottom of our hearts is manifest to close ones ?? Answer is- because we DON"T Love others enough ! FACT is.. that we can never love anyone too much, it's just that we don't love others enough. Only if we did, then we could feel the Divine love of God in fullness and be able to start describe his mahima. Life is too short to be bickering over synonyms and play of words.- because they are ALL maya. We can't use maya to describe the infinite. Your soul shall leave this kapra of a body before you could guess. And when it does, the only thing that will describe the nature of your soul will be your character. All that should matter is how we are to elevate this very character ?...............playing with all aspects of maya is not going to help the slightest if there is no devotion of love.

32 is the number of time bhram kavach paath be repeated . Its upto shaheed singhs or your concentration and avastha to feel them.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa !! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh !! what to do with water in bata after we are done?

I actually made a mistake sangat ji which i seek your maphi. Earlier I made a comment that chaubis avtars were avtars of vahiguroo but that was incorrect, they were indeed avtars of vishnu devta. I am terribly sorry for this misinterpertation which i realized when i start reading chaubis avtar and talking to senior gurmukhs regarding this. However after talking to senior gurmukh, he also advised me that tuk- ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥ is been misinterpertated by suggesting that bhram, bisan, mahesvar were handled by jamdoots, kaal would be better term, but with that being said, anything made out of 5 elements or 5 shud elements are in the chakar of time, even our guru's, their physical body had to go, this is no where to been seen or justify that ram was not a gurmukh. Second tuk of this pankiti shows the main purpose of the first pankiti, where maharaj advising the sikhs, never worship any physical entity/body including themselves which is bound to exit, keep focus on nirgun vahiguroo.

Baba Ji said that Bhagauti without form is Shakti and when it is a form it is a Kirpan. But also he said that another form of Bhagauti is Durga/Chandi. Baba Ji also said Durga/Chandi and Kirpan are both forms of Shakti. Why did I write the bani Ath Devi Ju Ki Ustat? I just put what Maharaj wrote, do you want me to change what Maharaj wrote and put Ath Akaal Ju Ki Ustat? Lets not do the same mistake Ram Rai did. I do not infer anything, I post what I find interesting and what appeals to me. The photograph of an old manuscript which has a drawing of Devi and then a passage from Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which praises Devi, which is Akaal Purkh Ji's Shakti, as per the teachings of Nihung Singhs, Nirmalae, Udasis and other Sampradayas. This is also the teaching that has been given to me by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji. You guys can go ahead and re-write Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib to make it appealing to others by putting Akaal instead of Devi, or we can just destroy the sigma attached to the word Devi. If we destroy the stigma attached to the word, and understand how Devi is Shakti of Akaal, then the Anti-Dasam Granth believers will lose their ammunition towards Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Or we can believe that sure it praises Devi , but this is a translation of a Puran and therefore not per Gurmat, Maharaj was just translating a Puran. But do you honestly think that Maharaj would write down for his beloved followers writings which He does not subscribe to? Don't you think that would be confusing for the Khalsa? Would Maharaj write lies/falsehood ? End of the day, you can insult me, call me a Neo-Nang, Hindu Snantani, RSS, Nirmala Pandit, Traitor of the Panth and whatever other cliche terms you have for someone with a different mindset, but please leave out the Mahapurkhs from puratan sampradyas from your remarks. Namaksaar to the Beloved Sikhs of the Guru who uphold the traditional sidhaant.