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I know what you mean. You only know who your friends are when you're at rock bottom or at least almost there. Make no mistake, the fastest way for a community/ethnicity/race to disintegrate is due to apathy, indifference and selfishness. This is more potent then even a Nuclear bomb. Unfortunately too many of our fellow Sikh's are 'stuck on stupid', always blaming everybody else and never looking inwards. It's either the RSS, the West, alcohol or drugs. They don't see their own selfishness and indifference.

Indians are in thrall to the fantasy that the British arrived in Hindustan and discovered some sort of glittering utopia, which they then proceeded to dismember. They insist that imperialism set them back (when, if anything, and in spite of its many evils, it propelled India forwards centuries), and make this the scapegoat for all of India's contemporary problems. To address this insecurity they've come up with the idea that whereas the West is materially rich, Indian society is morally and spiritually rich (this from the gang-rape capital of the world). It's all they've got to try and even the odds and paper over the West's quite obvious superiority. You've just seen the symptoms of this delusional mentality in the post I addressed.

Urgh. 'Western culture' isn't what's leading people to murder their baby girls. That's the handiwork of sexist Punjabi culture. 'Western culture' isn't what's leading people to take drugs. 75% of Punjabi youths are addicted to drugs. The figures for Western societies don't even touch this. Get real. Our Punjabi brethren are so smug sometimes.

StarStriker bro if you look at the link on Hrman Singh's OP the link for figures is available there. I'm not quite sure about if 80% of Haryana becoming Sikh would have been realistically achievable given that the Jatts have always been notorious opponents of Sikhs in the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs and comprised the majority of the Delhi police in 1984 like the Jatt Sajjan Kumar but we should still try our best with parchar even now. But for definite if we all work unitedly as a Panth (putting aside our differences to focus on what unites us) we can increase Sikh numbers to over 100million in our lifetime and from that point on future generations can start to dream of sehajdhari Sikhs becoming a majority throughout India. The consequent result of a massive increase in Sikh numbers will be that as the overall numbers for the Sikh Panth increase so will the numbers and quality of the Khalsa Panth increase just like in 1699 when we saw our Panj Piare coming from as far apart as Gujarati, Orissa, Dravidian, Potohar and Hastinapur geographic origins not to mention their different biraderi origins which Sikhi eradicated.

Quantavius bro we already have such an organisation in place - the SGPC. The problem is it is riddled by corruption so we have to peacefully seize back control or set-up a parallel organisation which is fully transparent and accountable for every penny of funding. My sincere conviction is that if HS Phulka Ji and the AAP can sweep Badal out of power in the Punjab elections in 2017 we can reclaim the SGPC and increase Sikh numbers massively simply on account of Sikhi being the Truth. Recognising all those that attend Gurdwara as fellow Sikhs would at a stroke push Sikh numbers in Punjab to above 90%. The more people currently defined by our opponents as non-Sikhs recognise that they are members of the Sikh Panth the greater their adherence to Gurmat will become in time. No other religion defines those that attend for example, Church services, Mosque gatherings or Mandir puja sessions as non-Christians, non-Muslims or non-Hindu's so we have to ask why it is only us Sikhs as a 1.7% minority in India who since 1950 have started insisting upon labelling certain Gurdwara Sangat as non-Sikhs and then scratching our heads as to why our numbers are declining while everybody else seeks to boost the size of their own populations. Muslim numbers have grown in Punjab by 40% during 2001-2011. Christian numbers grew 20% in Punjab during the same period. And yet we have corrupt bhekhi's that find the time for conferences supporting Charitropakhiyan stories at expensive resort hotels but cannot give a damn about the threats faced by the primarily self-inflicted silent Genocide of the Panth in the form of female infanticide, drugs, biraderi apartheid, illiteracy, cancer, poverty, alcohol etc.

So we have one section of Punjabi society that are having less children due to affluence and this has an impact in the fertility replacement rates for Sikhs. We have another section of Punjabi society that is poor and are not receiving help and therefore accept help from Xtian evangelist groups with bribes and other enticements. We have the claim of the majority of the youth (I expect would cross all social classes) are drug dependent, the ones who are not are the ones that have emigrated.

We have no nation, no base, no Raaj. Is it any surprise that the Sikh quam is in decline? Raj bina neh Dharam chale hain Dharam bina sab dale male hain

glad to c u people so much concerned about happenings here in punjab..there are 5 reasons behind decreasing populations of sikhs in punjab 1. migration of sikhs to other countries 2. immigration of non sikhs from other part of country 3. female foeticide nd infanticide 4. lower fertility rate among sikh families 5. increasing trends of drug addicts in punjab because most of them are left unmarried,divorced or they die at very early stage. but the my major concern is about solution which is political, economical nd religious. political because we don't have right representative in punjab who can have guts to stop this drug problem, stop female foeticide (even the bathinda dist of nahni shaan mohims leader MP harsimrat kaur badal has lowest sex ratio) nd the one who can represent sikhs across the globe, even SGPC is at its lowest point..time has come for puran gathan of SGPC nd to look for replacement of SAD nd according to me AAP is ideal option nd 2017 is also coming economical, because lack of employment which is leading to migration nd resisting families to have not more then 1 or 2 kids.. religious,believe me this khalistan concept is having negative impression..non sikhs,who used to c us as warriors have started seeing people with beard as hardliners..it is my humble to request to all my fellow sikhs not to propagate this idea atleast when religion itself is under threat.. rather that make NGOs like khalsa aid which is gaining ground in India nd help people,here people means every Indian,this will help us to gain the lost ground again..nd its also possible this neeshkam sewa concept may make them to convert to sikhism.. nd of course prachar of our gloroius history which is no doubt going good thank you

I agree. But fertility decrease due to hedonism is an influence of Western influence. Also, I do not believe that 75% of entire population in punjab is addicated to drugs. In some areas, may be. But over-all, I have seen no credible statistics on drug use in Punjab. Can you share some credible statistics from well-established sources on drugs?

This book written by Dr. Harbhajan Singh answers ALL questions on Dasam pita's bani If you have guts, read it before putting any efforts to comment.

To be honest if u look at the demographics of that link provided, im not too concerned by the muslim population ppl keep on mentioning. Out of the nearly 28million population, 16million is sikh, nearly 11million is hindu. U then add up christian(350k), muslim(540k), jain(45k) and buddhist(33k), and their numbers together dont even make up a million!...that too out of 28million. My main concern is the hindu population, which is jus growin too much in panjab, n we all know this is due to immigration from outside states like UP/Bihar,n not hindu panjabis. Even the christian numbers i expected to be much much higher, since 2000 onwards, they have targeted A LOT of mazhbi sikh/hindus, but many of whom have now returned back to sikhi, thanks to parchar and the RSS ghar wapsi campaign. People have said how theres now 1million christians now in panjab, yet in that census, it shows their numbers r barely 350k. But parchar needs to continue n step up, of which in my opinion, is gonna come from outside of panjab, like uk sikh charities/parcharaks. This whole ghar wapsi campaign is the only homegrown stuff that is happening. To be honest after looking at the demographics, im not too dismayed by it, condidering we r killing ourselves via drugs, female foeticide, mass immigration to foreign lands, cancerous water, alcohol etc, i expected our numbers to be MUCH MUCH lower, esp the way 'DTF' keeps sayin. Having said that, whats in store for the next 5-10yrs, who knows? But the biggest threat is defo, the hindu/dera population. I remember reading the sikh population was at 13million once, and the hindu at 6million about a decade ago, yet they r catchin up bigtime! Biharis have made a huge impact, no question, such a shame they r not bein converted into sikhi in larger numbers, but wat can u do, wen sikhi is dead in panjab? But overall, i gotta agree with jagsaw on this, with all the concerns in past decade or so of the demographics, this isnt even near as bad as we all thought.

That's not true, I know family members of the couple who's wedding was halted at Walsall. The anand karaj ceremony was not carried out instead an agreement was reached to carry out an ardaas to receive a blessing. The groom was Radha Soami with a Sikh father and Hindu mother he did not have Singh in his name. No Hindu ceremony ever took place.

Excellent post. Western culture created the computer we're all typing on, the internet, car, flight....pretty every much single thing in our lives we take for granted and the very best of countries to live in on the planet. We denigrate the West yet every Indian's wet dream is to hop on a plane and live in the west. How did these alcoholics and drug abusers create the best countries in the world to live in? As if Punjabis didn't know how to drink and consume drugs before the advent and influence of Western culture in the East. Actually, it's the West who learned how to use drugs from Easterners and not vice versa. Today Scotland is one of the largest manufacturers of Whiskey in the world and Japan is a close second. Yet India is probably 200 years behind these two countries in terms of standard of living. How is this possible????? This dumb morons like a broken tape recorder keep repeating this same nonsense again and again, akin to a parrot on crack! It's the only thing their pea brain knows.

Well, if we allow nature to take its course I think the natural conclusion will be us becoming a footnote in history, in terms of Punjab of course. I don't agree with some of the hand-wringing that occurs when issues of this nature are discussed, with the suggestion that Sikhs back home are completely free of blame for these situations to come to the fore. They consider themselves a savvy, proud people, no less capable than any other group in the world. Unfortunately, the herd mentality that manifests itself through various facets of their existence means they aren't as clever as they think they are. They can hoodwink and deceive each other over land inheritance and other petty and meaningless issues of a domestic nature, but when it comes to a wider social appreciation and awareness of their place in society and the world in general, the grey matter sadly malfunctions, and the wood can't be seen for the trees. You can't change something that is ingrained in a collective psyche without a monumental shift in awareness. Sikhi - in its purest form devoid of the petty politics and aggrandisement of status - was the gift to our people to transcend our innate "Indianess" but we've even managed to look that particular gift horse in the mouth. It's our fault, those over there and us here, and we've begun to reap the affects of our arrogance and our inability to do the right thing no matter what impositions have been placed on us. It's survival of the fittest some might say, and if we can't survive and thrive, then maybe we deserve an end that befits the sum error of our inability to free ourselves of the shackles that have been placed on us in part by others and the rest by ourselves. Nothing worth doing is ever pain-free and straight-forward. Unfortunately, I doubt Panjabis can even begin to recognise there's a problem. That's the level of befuddlement we're talking about here.

After looking at the numbers, it really does seem like Doaba is taking most of the damage. Situation is horrible there, even the countryside is Hindu. At least Majha and Malwa countrysides are still dominated by Sikhs. Outside of Doaba, it is really only Ludhiana (city) and Gurdaspur (district) that hurt Sikh numbers significantly. Ludhiana really is ridiculous, massive growth, of which Sikhs contributed little of.

There are two factors which has resulted in our demographic decline in proportion to the other communities. One is migration. since 2000, Sikhs have migrated to the west in huge numbers. Canada, US, Australia and Italy has seen their Sikh population grow at the expense of Punjab. Two, The thing that makes it worse is that Sikhs have one of lowest fertility rates of all the religious communities of India. Our negative fertility rate has resulted in our demographic decline. When the Jathadar of Akal Takh suggested Sikhs should have more kids, he was ridiculed and insulted by Sikhs. Even on this very forum people became very rude to the Jathadar for daring to suggest this because they consider kids to be a burden on their western life style. We have gone they way of the once great Parsi community who are dying a slow death and will eventually become history. Hopefully this census report was a wake up call for Sikhs worldwide and our elite and leaders who will do whatever it takes to improve our demographic situation. Prakash Badal and his worthless son are a cancer to Punjab! This man has hoarded a huge amount of wealth but has done nothing to improve the employment situation of Punjab which has resulted in youth wanting to migrate out west. There is a huge fence across the border yet surprisingly free flow of drugs still manages to go through and the result is our youth are all on some form of drugs. At one time, the best sportsmen of India were Punjabis. Wrestlers, boxers, runners, hockey players were all mostly Punjabi. But Badal sarkar has no interest in promoting sports and athletics to the youth who are hooked on drugs also due to the mismanagement of Badal Sarkar. Now the sports scene is dominated by Haryanvi athletes who are well taken care of by the Haryana government. Haryanvi boxers like Vijender Singh and wrestlers like Sushil Kumar are world class athletes. Our female infanticide problem is huge. Abortion is murder! And we have murdered untold amounts of our girls in the womb. Lakh Lanat on such mothers and fathers who murder their child like this! That's like 2 million Sikh women who were killed before entering this world by their selfish parents. Problems are many. But the ONLY solution to all our problems is Sikhi. It is no coincidence that as the religiosity among the Sikhs has declined these problems have increased many fold. Our situation is what is it is today because we have gone away from Sikhi. When the entire Sikh Qaum follows Sikhi we were a force to be reckoned with. Now all we can do is read about the exploits of our forefathers.

So then why also tie a "rakhri"? Also, not surprised that Preet liked your post. Also how is it the philosophy of Guru Gobind Singh ji?

Fateh Just to highlight a few points: - In Hinduism, even today it not permitted to marry outside your caste (i.e. Pandit to Pandit). - In Muslim religion, If a Muslim marries into another religion, the partner will need to make a promise to bring the children according to Islam. - In christanity, Marriage outside the catholic church is a sin. - In Parsi,..... same - In Jews,...... Same..... every religion is the same… exempting buddhism where the views of Mahatma Gautam towards marriage in whole are somewhat different. (No disrespect intended). So what the h*LL is wrong with our lot? Why insist on this stupid argument which dont hold any substance. If you knew about sikhism you wont have to argue with the Gurudwara Commitee to tell them to you what a sikh is. Derisory gone down to another level... Moorakh nall na loojiye…. Unless .. you don’t want to be a Moorakh but then Gur bin gayan no hoyi…… No matter what rules you make..... somone will try to break that rule and create another havoc…. Fateh. . . . ..

Communities have always segregated themselves one way or another. What is stopping one person from one caste going to a Gurdwara that is commitee controlled by another caste. I think a lot of this use of caste is a load of whole huey that somehow this causing a decline. A lot of people think that the rise of the Deras us due to caste discrimination. How does the average poor Sikh from a disadvantaged social standing get shut out of the Gurdwara? Does the Granthi decline Ardaas,does the Giani decline to do Akhand Path, does the Granthi prevent them from having a Siropa. If being lower caste is what attracts people to Deras then why do people from upper castes go to Deras also. If Hindutva thinks that by pushing Sikhs into a minority is some great strategy, they are pretty foolish bunch. They lose their "sword arm of India".

They are not being pushed away, they are being given the opportunity to put their ego to one side and join the path of Sikhi, if Anand Karaj is so important to them I'm sure they'll make the required commitment. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj has already outlined the level of commitment required from those that wish to walk the path of Sikhi "'If you desire to play the game of love, then bring me your head on the palm of your hand, Having stepped on this path, give your head and pay no heed to public attention' (Guru Nanak Dev jee : Guru Granth Sahib Jee) "

Threads are useless. You can keep the Indian tradition going but change it so that we will actually benefit and be armed instead of having a dozen itchy threads tied on your arm. I respect the tradition, but it should be changed so that it isn't just a thread

@DTF - On some occasions certain elements of our own are doing all the sabotage that could ever hurt us in the type of situations you've described, whilst the enemy looks on satisfied wondering how it could ever be so easy.

I did not know my opinion would cause you to reply in such a fainthearted manner? Have I said something too difficult for you to handle? Oooops, I do beg your pardon, for not realizing that! I thought you fully supported opposing opinions and told others off for not having them. You have really got me confused now. You mention some cliches such as 'fragile ego,' 'huge egos,' you wouldn't be referring to yourself by any chance? Of course, there are plenty of nice and caring people out there as well as humble and secure ones, but surely not everyone can be classed as such. There must be some that are not. Can you imagine how hard it must have been for someone to tell us about what her father did to her as a child. She came on this forum with a good heart hoping her readers would be 'humble and secure' who would listen to her story with empathy and in friendship. No, this is not how you reacted. You judged her and mocked her for sharing her pathetically sad experiences with us. This goes to prove how humble and secure you must be as a person. Instead of listening to her kindly and trying to understand what she must have felt when she was going through with her bad experiences, you did the opposite. So, no way, anyone can class you as a humble or secure individual. In my humble and secure opinion, it is really bad to be bad to someone who has already suffered something horrendously bad and is seeking to share her experiences with others with a good and honest heart. I sincerely hope my piece of writing above has not shaken your super fragile and super huge ego. Have a nice life. In my humble and secure opinion this is my best composition so far! I am stating this opinion in the absence of a fragile or a huge ego!

Yes I do add Australia and New Zealand to that list, not to mention places in the middle east such as Dubai etc. In fact, we in the UK have had so few newer Sikh immigrants from Punjab compared to places such as Italy and Canada etc that I don't think we here even realise just how many have been leaving Punjab. Just to give an example, during that 10 year period, Italy alone has had 100,000 Sikh immigrants from Punjab. When we embark on a blame game its really easy to point the finger at things like drugs and the right wing Hindu agenda but the fact is the root of the problem lies very much closer to home. We ourselves are the cause, and by we I mean me and you, sitting in the west. Firstly, we're part of the negative statistics because we are Sikhs sitting away from Punjab. Secondly, if we used our western money and education to help our kith and kin in Punjab to become more advanced in their farming methods etc they wouldn't need to bring in hundreds of thouands of Indians from U.P and Bihar each year. Instead, we sit in the west. Do nothing. Wait for statistics to come out. And then pontificate.

When you factor in the massive amount of Indian labourers we Sikhs ourselves have had to bring in to Punjab to work our fields and the massive amount of Sikh emigration to places such as Canada, America and Italy (and to a smaller extent UK) from Punjab in the last decade I think we have to look at the tiny 3% drop in our population and be quite relieved and admit that it isn't half as bad as we feared. Could have been alot worse. So, in actual fact, a very positive result. No need for negativity at all on this thread.

One day you will know the answer. by that time it will be to late. why risk everything for one person? Is that how powerful another person is. You need to be strong not weak. No one is worth that.

It is, but it's been going on amongst Sikhs for God knows how long. It's a residual cultural practice that our lot can't seem to relinquish for various reasons. It's more than fine for others to continue this tradition considering it's part and parcel of the fabric of their culture IMO. It's nothing to get too upset about i think.

Veer im not swearing at you or anyone. I apologise if thats how it has come across. My point is, that every good that this ragi has done throughout his life is being forgotten over an accusation. We're jumping to conclusions based on a 5min clip

I think your parents are the only two people that can best answer your question. People on this forum are very helpful, they will answer your question, no doubt about it but, their answers will not have any impact on you. Why? The answer is very simple. We listen to those that we love, respect and know especially when they happen to be our parents. Strangers don't have the same impact on us as our parents or loved ones do. You claim you are aware of the history between religions then why are you so 'baffled' at your parents decision not to accept this muslim man? What does this mean? Does it mean you haven't learned any lessons from our history? Which 'few rotten apples' are you referring to? What 'bunch' are they spoiling? I am not entirely sure what is it that you are referring to. If you knew the sikh history as you claim you do, you would have soon learned that our glorious history is much larger than few rotten apples and a bunch they are meant to be spoiling! Our history is very unique and powerful and to express it in terms of few rotten apples and a bunch is absolutely sacrilegious! There is no history in this world that can equal the sikh history. Believe you me our sikh history has got nothing to do with few 'rotten apples,' or a 'bunch' and to see it being expressed in this way is hurting me so much that I am literally in tears now. Please read the SGGS, the Dasam Patshah ji's Bani, about Mahaan Baba Deep Singh Ji. Find out about Dasam Pita's sacrifices for us so we can call ourselves sikhs today. We are heavily indebted to our Deshmesh Pita for all the sacrifices that have been made for us. Do you know why our Deshmesh Pita ji is known as 'Sarbans Daani?' There is no way we can ever repay Him. If you are lucky you will soon learn that our history is more than just 'few rotten apples' and a 'bunch' they are suppose to be spoiling. There is simply no comparison. I am not sure if you are a sikh. In my view, it is arrogant to call oneself a sikh when you don't even know your history which is replete with painful martydoms, imprisonment and sacrifices throughout, starting with the first Guru to the tenth!! Besides knowing our history it is also imperative to learn lessons from it!

Prophets, gods, devtas... are just to bring righteousness in this world to an extent only. But if we ever want to know what God wants to tell us, it is only by Bhagats, Gurmukhs and Guru Sahibans, that we can get direct and accurate information or gyan from God, untill we grow spiritually wise and become one with God.... till then we have to rely only on Gurbani. God can never ever forbid somethings to some, and allow others to do the same. This is all manmat, moorakhta, agyanta. Of the islam I do not have much knowledge, so I can not quote anything to prove the the Truth on this topic; but from the Christians, we know from their Ten Commandments, one of them is : thou shall not kill. And killing is not limited to not to kill humans alone, as it is nowhere specified, but killing in general is forbidden. It is just that, to satisfy the taste of the tongue, the weak humans commit sins and then justify it, by saying, oh, it was done in the name of god...stupid people At other place is said: as you sow, so shall you reap. If one plants pain, cheating, killing, robbing ....the very same shall we get in return. The nature is made in that way. Every action has an reaction. Not that God is bad, but it is the bad done by us, whenever it maybe, which returns back. Then the foolish cry and pray : Oh God if you are there, why don´t you listen me? Why do not you take away my pain? How can you be so unjust? And blah blah blah .... Always God is blamed ....foolish people. They come here in a alien land for a limited time, and do sort of nonsense by not respecting the laws of Nature, thus they bind themselves almost perpetually. You see, if it is here in this world where we do bad or good, naturally it is here where, we have to come to pay or collect payment. And to come here, means, again we have to come in a mother´s womb, means, chaurasee ka chakar goes on and on, nonstop. The force and accuracy of karmas can never be understood fully, they are quite complicated from our actual state, but anyhow, there is no unjustice in it. Though we may not understand or even agree with it, but in the end, there is a touch of Grace of Wahiguru in the law of Karma, that also for our benefit as souls. Following is an example, of how mysterious and complicated can be the karma theory for us. We all know Dhritrashtra was blind from birth. Once in the company of Krishna, he told him, with my the tap of Yoga, I have been able to go 98 lives back, and in none of them can I see myself doing any such thing to be blind now. So Krishna, with his power, took him still 5 lives back, and showed him how in that life, while he was a small boy and was playing near a pond, how he was taking out the eyes of a worm with something sharp pointed .... From this we learn that, we do commit all sort of karmas, but we do not have any clue as per how they act or when they unfold the reactions... it is totally out our understanding, but nevertheless are our very own sown seeds. If we sow chillies, naturally we are not going to get potatoes, howsoever we may shout, cry or pray. Nature is perfectly executed as designed by Wahiguru, we can not bribe or alterate Nature. Only by respecting the laws of Nature can we be at peace here and hereafter. Some may say, we are mentally and emotionally poor, how can we know what is good or bad? Or how to respect the laws of Nature and not interfere its course? For this, there are two options. One is to, keep Sadh Kee Sangat as much as possible, in order to learn from them being virtuous. And second, by doing as said in the Bani: Saas saas simroh Gobind. Because by meditating on Wahiguru, we become pure, and we learn to stay in His Bhaana at all times, thus staying in His Bhaana, we can never do anything wrong. it is a pity, Sikhee is so simple and complete by itself, but alas, we have adulterated it, and this has made us gone astray. Then we ask ourselves, why sikh youngsters are going into islam or here or there... You see people in general are not stupid, they want logic answers to strengthen their faith, which they do not see, because there is lot of ritualization and a lot of theories, when the fact is, Sikhee is to discard everything else, and only to pratice one thing : do His Bhajan Bandagee, through His Naam Simran. The Bani says: Prabh ka Simran sabh tay oochaa. Because if ever there is anything which washes away our impurities, or karmas, past sanskaras, the filthy mind, fight and defeat Maya, yam doots or Kal Purukh himself, that is only His Naam. And Sangat jee, not only that, but it is by boarding the jahaaz of Nam, that we can surely and safely reach our True spiritual Home namely Sach Khand, which we once left long long ago and since then we have been wandering aimlessly in the mayavee creation. Not once did we hold the "pallav of His Naam in all our past countless lives. We have done all sort rituals, pilgrimages, moortee pujas, worship gods, godesses, prophets, fastings, bathing in so called holy waters and a big etc...... That is why the Bani tells us: Bahut janam vichuray teh Madhao, ehe janam Tumhare lekhey... Ninth Patshahee also tells us: Gun Gobind gaayo nahee, janam akarath keen. Here Guru Jee is telling us, if we do not sing His glory by repeating His Naam, we have wasted away our lives. So we can see, we may take any Ang from the Bani, it is nothing, but only the wadeayee of His Naam, of that Ik Oankar, Aad Niranjan Prabh Nirankara. Brothers, we may continue like this for a long time, going on tasting the rus of the sweet Bani of our beloved Guru Sahibans, and never even then getting satisfied, but on the contrary, wanting it more and more, such is the hunger an thirst, for the Pure Paviter Bani.... Sat Sree Akal.

Let me explain this by the caste division system.As you know there are 4 classes of people divided: 1)kshatriyas 2)brahmans 3)shudars 4)vaishyas Kshatriyas were the people who managed the empire (i.e kingdom),they were the kings.They also used to eat meat.But in Sri dasam granth some of them are said to be of high spirituality and resulting in "mukti". Some havans done by Brahmans also needed animal sacrifices too.Animal sacrifice is also related to the victory of goddess Durga on the demons. Sikhi is made by combining 4 classes(kshatriyas,brahmans,shudars,vaishyas) into a single person.That's the main reason Shri Harmandir Sahib has four doors ,explaining that it is open for all 4 classes.A Amritdhari(khalsa) can take life of someone for the purpose of selfdefence.But sacrificing and eating animals is not allowded in Sikhi due to the spiritual cost and the negative energy from the eating material. The universe is made by the God with "Maya" as he himself remain untouched to it.Maya further made 3 guns 1)Sato gun 2)Rajo gun 3)Tamo gun and then 5 elements were made. 1)sato gun is the state of mind of a person with compassion,faith,love etc. 2)Rajo gun is the state of mind of a person with intellectual skills,more interested in politics etc. 3)Tamo gun is the state of mind of a person who is short temppered,always ready to fight. Tamo gun is the lowest of these guns.Meat is a Tamo gun food.It increases tamo gun in us.Sikhi's ultimate aim is to reach the 4th gun state (Brahm gian) which can only be given by God not Maya ,after one reaches the state of sato gun then brahm gian is obtained. These answers will help you : Question: Master ji, we all know that it's very crucial to abstain from the eating of meat because this increases our karmas, but can you explain in more detail the reasons for becoming vegetarian? Thakar Singh: We should not increase our burden of karmas as you have already said. There is karmic value in every kind of thing we use in this world. The air we consume, we have to pay for. The water we use, we have to pay for. The light of the sun or moon is also not free for us, and this green grass is also to be paid for - nothing is free. Depending on the "Jun" (life-form), there is a price to be paid. Lower life forms have a lower price to pay. Plants have a lower spiritual price than animal life forms. So why take the higher burden? If you are to construct a house, you don't make it with gold or silver or jewels. If you can, you make the house with stone - Stone is very strong and cheap -- So, why don't you make your house with stone and bricks instead of gold? This body is like a house. Build it with material that is spiritually cheap and strong. Fruits and vegetables are spiritually cheap and they can make you spiritually and physically strong. Higher life-forms are expensive - and you will have to pay a higher price! In the same way, if we can maintain a simple life style, with a spiritually lower cost - with this greenery, fruits, etc - then why attract so much burden and payment of karma by consuming higher life-forms? God did not really say that it is "burden-less" or it is all free. He has never explained it like this, but He has allowed us to have these lower forms because with our meditations we can release ourselves very quickly and easily and therefore we will not "over-burden" ourselves for a long time. This is also the case with people who eat animals. Their nervous systems have been seriously disturbed and shaken. Even if you look at an animal that has been killed you will be emotionally affected; your nervous system will be disturbed and you will lose so much peace; you will not feel good and your heart will be affected by it. Look at a dying fish. It is out of water and if you look at it, for one or two hours or even some days your heart will not feel good. You will think of the condition of that fish and it will feel horrible and your heart and mind will be in some kind of perturbed state. For months even this state of mind will continue. Maybe after a long time you will forget this scene and its effect will be gone from your heart and then perhaps you cannot remember it - still it has its effect. If just looking at a dead fish causes this then what will be the case when we eat it and all these negative vibrations enter into our system. So many diseases will come up and our mental systems will be disturbed. But when we eat some greenery or fruit everything is wonderful. The plant produces the fruit for consumption by an animal so that the seeds can be transported to new places. In fact by eating the fruit you are doing a favour to the plant! - the fruit is a bait for the animal to do a function that the plant desires - That is the function of a fruit. If you look at fruit that is ripe the colors tell you so wonderfully that it is ripe. A fragrance is also available and when you smell it you enjoy it and even when you remember the smell you feel good. Your heart is also enjoying and your mind and body are at peace. Q. Flesh-eaters often say to vegetarian Sikhs, if you eat only vegetables you are also taking life. What, then is the difference between taking the life of, say, a pig and that of a vegetable? A. All the difference in the world. Does a potato cry out when it is taken from the earth the way a calf does when it is taken from its mother? Does a stick of celery scream in pain and terror when it is picked the way a pig does when it is being led to slaughter and is having its throat cut? And how sad, lonely, and frightened can a head of lettuce feel? We don't need a polygraph to demonstrate that plants have consciousness of a sort, but this consciousness is obviously of a rudimentary kind, far different from that of mammals with well developed nervous systems. Nor do we need tests to prove that fowls and pigs and sheep experience pain to the same degree as human beings, for it is common observation that animals wince, howl, wail, and show terror when abused or injured and make every effort to avoid pain. Actually many fruits and vegetables can be picked without killing or even harming the plants. These include berries, melons, legumes, nuts, seeds, pumpkins, and many other vegetables. Potatoes are taken from the ground after the plant has died. Most vegetables are annuals, harvested at or near the end of their natural life. In fact, there is considerable scientific evidence that the human physiology, like that of our closest living creatures - the great apes, is vegetarian in design. The structure of our skin, teeth, stomach and bowels, the length of our digestive system, the composition of our saliva, stomach acids and urine, etc. are all typically vegetarian. There is also a mountain of evidence proving that a meat-based diet contributes to a whole range of diseases. Many scientists now concede that fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, and grains appear best suited to the human body. Finally, we know that we cannot subsist for long without food, and all food is matter that was once alive. But since we can subsist well and even thrive without meat, why take animal life in addition to the plant life we need to survive? Among certain spiritually oriented persons one will often hear this strange rationalization: "Sure, we eat meat", they say, "what of it"? What is most important is not what enters the stomach but what comes out of the mind! Although it is true that ridding oneself of one's delusions, breaking out of the prison of the ego-I into a life of sympathy with all sentient beings is paramount, how can we establish a sympathetic rapport with non-humans while we are feasting on them? "Do not cause pain to any creature, Go back to your Home with honour." (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, pg 322) Story of Bheesham Pitama In accordance to Hindu mythology, Draupadi asked the saint Sant Bheesham Pitama, why he had not come to her rescue when she was stripped of her clothing in Duryodans court. She queried him, saying that if he was a saint, why did he not raise his voice when evil was going on before his very eyes in Duryodanas court. He started to cry and said, Daughter, I shall tell you the truth; my mind became clouded by darkness as I had eaten in Duryodans house. Therefore, this shows how the love of God breaks away from a being as their mind becomes clouded by filth and prevents them from performing good deeds.

If you're going to come onto a SIKH forum seeking answers to questions, you're going to have to stop referring to Guru Granth Sahib Jee as a "sikh bible".