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I am not discounting their wisdom, and can't see anyone else tring to either but the point here is that we are trying to increase their wisdom. There was a time, when all farming was hard manual labour. When people needed bullock-carts to pull ploughs but now they use tractors. Nowadays, there is so much done by machine, even seriuosly hard mundane work like the planting of rice etc. Another point where farmers of Panjab seriously need to expand their wisdom is the conservation of water. Water is a key issue in Panjab at the moment. Farming the way our elders did 30 or 40 years ago is heading towards a mini-disaster. I saw a video where this guy had actually had a suspended tract of soil where he was growing ridiculously large vegetables because of his expert use of water. And he told how he was nonly using some 10% of water that he used to use, in traditional methods.

Rest of his post aside, this is a valid point

Amen bro. Green revolution was putting the zip tie on the neck, what we see now is pulling it tight.

Well, what's the excuse for the apparent casual attitude by farmers now? (I say this knowing full well that water has been siphoned off since the 80s at least). That 'green revolution' looks like an experiment on Panjab that failed because it wasn't sustainable. Developing seeds with a high requirement for laboratory manufactured fertilizers, and high resistance to pesticides as well as abnormal levels of 'thirst' wasn't ever going to end well. Why are Panjabi farmers so slow to develop with things like vertical farming? Related to what Chatanga said, I remember meeting an Israeli about 15/16 years ago, and he was telling me about how Israelis had developed a watering system via pipes (being in a desert and that) and had minutely figured out the absolute minimal amount of water to use to make good crops (can't remember what they were growing?) What the hell are all those 'Agricultural Universities' doing? I think every last one of you knows that unless we start to rapidly modernise and get creative, we are going to get f**ked, and that too within a few decades.

Because no-one can force you to use or overuse the water on your own land. If that knowledge was known beforehand then the farmers would not have implemented any changes to a system they knew worked for them. Another example, the wheat grown today in Panjab is from a hybrid seed that was a result of research in Mexico. Before that Panjabi farmers used their own seeds, but when this new seed was taken to Panjab and trialled and the farmers there saw how it was better, they adopted the new seeds over their own. This happened in the early 70s. Slowly it replaced the original seed. Can we say the same for how water is used in Panjab?

why would a sikh even be senator in Rome Rome would be pretty shitty place full of pedos, rapists, and slavery

I am confused, this is a underrated event in history where Jathedar Baba Sahib Singh ji Kaladhari was kicked out of Sri Akal Thakt by SGPC, there are so many accounts of it.He is said to have been ousted with Kartar Singh Chibbar and SGPC using bibian to abuse him and he is said to have been hurt badly. The SGPC have a totally different account of them being intoxicated and taking over Akal Thakt even other Nihang jathedbanian joining in. Who were the baddies? And is it true Baba Sahib Singh Ji support shastar puja and that's why there were differences between him and SGPC? What contributions did nihangs actually make during british raj as he said to be patriotized by nihangs saying he fought for right of sikhs to wear kirpans but I thought those were the babbar akalis? Are these nihangs just still salty about what happened nearly 100 years ago? Should they be reinstated on the Akal Thakt?

No one can force one to overuse the water on your land. However, if the new hybrid seed from Mexico provided a greater yield, but it was more water intensive then any farmer's concern about depleting water table could be overriden.

How do we know that conservation of water wasn't an important knowledge known and practiced by farmers pre-Green Revolution and some very clever,intellectual people insisted in new methods which in turn created an issue with depleted ground water levels?

Yes veerji. Though Sikhs helped the jaats of bharatpur but churaman jaat sided with Bahadar Shah and fought against the Sikhs. https://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/historical-events-in-sikh-history/the-sikh-empire-1799-1839/sikhs-relations-with-jats-of-bharatpur/ Churaman (d. 1721), his younger brother and successor to leadership, was an astute politician. He professed allegiance to Emperor Bahadur ShahI (1707-12) and received from him mansab of 1500 zat and 500 sowar. He joined the imperial campaign against the Sikhs at Sadhaura and Lohgarh in 1710

The older generation may not be educated in the academic sense, however they are educated in what works, particularly if they have worked in agriculture since practically birth. They have particular knowledge that maybe academics may not have and they have particular insights as they have tradition of knowledge passed down from generation to generation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect I think that the older generation may be set in their ways but we should not necessarily discount their wisdom.

The reason is generational education. The older generation are set in their ways and fearful of new innovations, prefering to do things the way they have for the last 40 odd years, while a younger generation are not that interested in farming any more so don't hold an interest in learning new techniques or technologies, even though they can see it works. I have seen a similiar video and wanted to try and do it in my own garden but haven't managed to do it yet.

Really great information. But it only takes one drop of poison in a dish of food to kill you... Niddar says that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was "taught" shastar vidya by some kapil naths or something like that. That meant that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had a Guru other than Sri Akal Purkh, which is absolute nonsense. Guru Nanak Dev Ji already had these qualities and knowledge. No-one could teach the Guru anything. If they could they were HIS Guru. Beware of what you take from this video as niddar is well known for his intellectual dishonesty. And I say that from personal experience.

So we are in agreement about the Hindus and Muslims being the traitors of Panjab. Many Hindus turned out to fight against Baba Banda Bahadur. The same ones who attacked the Guru. The same ones who claim to be Hindus. 1857 was not any war of independence. It was a mutiny against the British, based on religious sensibilities. Only in the last few years have some misguided people started calling it a war of independence. And "for a few bucks," the poorbias sided with the British and helped them win Calcutta and then the same poorbia hindus and muslims helped the British destroy the last indigenous rule of the Sikhs in Panjab. So if you REALLY want to talk about a few bucks, at least go to the beginning please. Again, I agree with you. I myself don't understand why Sikh people deny their hindu roots. We were once Hindus. We should not be afraid or embarrassed about that. We don't need to hide it. But if we really want to talk about traitors, shouldn't we begin with those who KNEW they were hindus and still sided those belonging to "an alien culture" AGAINST those who did not deny their Hindu roots? Multani/Seraiki is a dialect of Panjabi to begin with. But in some countries you do get languages which are spoken by minorities ie in the UK, we have Gaelic, Welsh and Cornish. This doesn't really make any difference about the overall status of the language in the UK - English. Christian parchar is still done in Panjabi in Panjab 180 years after Christianity entered Panjab in any serious form. So if these peoples language status has not altered one iota in 180 years do you seriously beleive there is an immediate threat? It still exists. But I want to expand on your valid point a little further. "where is the body of literature, intellectual rigour and philosophical reasoning, art and creativity, architectural and historic buildings that have sustained a culture for thousands of years across the continent of Bharat? " I'll give you a clue. The traitors are too busy wiping out the Sikhs and other minorities in their quest of some superior Bharat.

Should the Nihangs be reinstated into the Akal Takht? The current Nihangs are definitely not the Nihangs of the past, there are diamonds, but it's not looking good in regards to fighting over leadership. We all see the inhouse fighting going on alongside the influence of political parties. I was recently watching this podcast with Nidar Singh on there (controversial guy I get it), but he mentions an instance when he was younger where he asks his master permission to join the chakravati Nihangs in the camps and his ustaad straight up said "Go ahead and join them if you wanna lose your Sikhi." Ultimately, everything is under the hands of the SGPC and the political parties of Panjab. For instance, I'll show you how gullible and simple minded Sikhs are. Remember when the Sarbat Khalsa happened and they elected Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji Hawara as the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht? We all got happy because he is a solid Singh of the Guru. However, let's look at this deeper. The reason why they picked Jathedar Ji is because they knew how gullible and simple we are! They realize that the Indian government is probably never going to let him out so as a result, THEY can continue to put their own guys in and act as Jathedar on behalf of Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji Hawara. We as Sikhs continue to just blindly accept this.

Though I am not affiliated with any dals, I can only speak from an outsider perspective as well. It really shows you how bad the situation looks within the Dals. However, I don't think you're far off with your observation. It is quite clear that the Budha Dal, ever since the passing of Baba Santa Singh Ji, has fallen victim to the same negative influences that impact most of our panth. Most of this resulted in the internal turmoil we see today. There seems to be two main rivaling factions within the Budha Dal itself, a rivalry that revolves around leadership. I wrote a draft trying to summarize the two factions, however, I'm not even going to attempt to post it. But, there are multiple posts that go into it though. From what I seen, most Nihangs believe Baba Surjit Singh Ji as the rightful Jathedar of Budha Dal. All in all, these factions go at it. You can see news reports of Nihangs shooting each other in the past. I believe Baba Surjit Singh Ji's leadership line currently rests with Jathedar Mann Singh Ji. Here are some posts that describe this whole situation: https://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/18648-death-of-the-nihangs/

The Nihang Jathas seem to have been heavily heavily murdered, maligned, and infiltrated. We know sgpc isn't beholden to Sikhs. Have the same attempts been successful against the Dals? Yes, but to what degree. I respect all the Dals, but am worried about and for them. Hazur Sahib has done an exemplary job of withstanding all the assaults, these seeds of subversion.

Let's say you are a Roman senator during Caesar's reign as dictator and you were offered to join the conspiracy to kill him. Would you? Why would you?

Any time everybody, as in everybody, is fighting for elbow room, to stab you....you have it coming.

its wierd how incoherent and weird the nihang akali panth's history gets, wish it was recorded better whats up with budha dal nowadays, does anyone know who's the jathedar now? i've heard some call baba Maan Singh guru nanak dal wale the panth paatshah meanwhile others baba joginder singh raqbe wale

Brother, I have been telling you that this is SikhSangat not AryaSamaj forum.

Little tip: read this bani before doing task you feel nervous for (public speaking, exams etc). It will make war ready and fearless lol. I think bhai jagraj from basics of sikhi used to read this bani before doing speakers corner/university talks

"A good few years ago I remember reading about an apna farmer in Canada (on Sikhnet I think) who was crushing it with modern tech (polly tunnels and various technological ways to monitor his crops), and he specifically said that when he goes back home and tells others about it, they aren't remotely interested. There's some strange culture going on by the looks of it? Or is it that most apna are just strangely 'lazy' like that (and I don't mean physically lazy, because our lot can graft with the best of them). How the f**k are we going to go forward with this type of mentality? " The only way apneh take notice is if it makes lot of money and the material success it brings. Thinking outside the box is not our forte unless it is profitable.

If you've grown up in a multicultural environment, like I presume you and I both have, and you do some cross-cultural comparisons, it's pretty hard not to notice that this blockheadedness is very strong amongst apnay. It's not good. I feel like we suffer from this to a much higher degree than many other quoms. To say this is limiting is a gross understatement. A good few years ago I remember reading about an apna farmer in Canada (on Sikhnet I think) who was crushing it with modern tech (polly tunnels and various technological ways to monitor his crops), and he specifically said that when he goes back home and tells others about it, they aren't remotely interested. There's some strange culture going on by the looks of it? Or is it that most apna are just strangely 'lazy' like that (and I don't mean physically lazy, because our lot can graft with the best of them). How the f**k are we going to go forward with this type of mentality?

If someone carves a successful path for themselves, a template gets created and people tend to follow that path as they are too lazy. It takes a great deal of authenticity to carve your own niche.

It boils down to lack of diverse Sikh economy in the end. Our own lot seem very blockheaded in this respect, they don't seem to have any creativity to develop new markets, instead they just pile into any avenues one apna creates. Example being how so many rural Sikhs just want to come here and be builders. Or how they all buy the same white maruti. Something weird going on there.

I understand your postition on this, but in Sri Gur Panth Parkash, the Dal Khalsa saw the need to align with those who threatened our very existence at times, like Zakariya Khan and Mir Mannu. Although it's not exactly the same situation but where these people's needs can be strengthened with our own and/or vice versa, then its somthing that should be considered. Panjab belongs to the people of it's soil. Panjab is our motherland. That can include HIndus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians. But who would strike a dagger into their own mother's heart? The Muslims showed their disdain for Panjab when they prefered some alien hybrid bihari language over their own mother tongue in the 1850s. A century later, the HIndus displayed the same disloyalty to Panjab when they returned Hindi as their mother tongue. Both these two religious groups are traitors to Panjab. An excellent post and great info. Just as the Sikhs of panjabi-speaking areas didn't want hindi foisted upon them. neither did the Haranyvis want Panjabi foisted upon them. We can't deny them the same right we want. The dialect of Baagri Panjabi, is probably to us in the UK how geordies speak english, not very pleasant to listen to lol. I have some faroff relatives who speak that dialect and its not very easy to understand. Its spoken more towards the central part of Haryana I believe. Sometimes I have heard elders say "bagar boli" when someone says something they don't understand. The main Hindu resistance came from the Hindus of Majha and Doaba. Cities like Amritsar with a majority HIndu community returned HIndi as their mother tongue. In Doaba, the Chamars under the banner of the aad dharmi movement returned hindi under the influence of the Congress parety. Those Panjabis are still untrustworthy - the RSS cadres and the Dera Ballan movement. But it's not them we want to reach out to. They will never align themselves with the Sikhs, too full of hankaar and krodh more than anything.

So what about those Panjabis that did turn their back on their mother tongue/heritage? I presume a lot of them will now be trying to crawl up Sikhs ar5es. Do you seriously not see how having such disloyal people swell Sikh ranks could very easily backfire!! Can you not see how it could also be a mass infiltration of at best indifferent, at worst historically hostile people that could screw us over even more long term? We could have a 1000 KPS Gills or Badals from this in future. I full well understand how we need to shift the geo-political scenario in Panjab and the surrounding areas (I really do), but what will we be looking at? 'Converts' who will replicate what the majority juts of Panjab have done and created a bankrupt and corrupt SGPC and dragged Sikh polity largely into oblivion? Fights over Gurdwara funds? More depressing apartheid and oppression of Mazhbhis at village level (which I'm sure takes place now anyway) but with the added disgrace of having Sikhi associated with it. Will Panjabis roll out the whisky-for-votes schemes to these new regions as well? Don't you think we at least need to face up to, and address some of our own shyte before we try and convert others in an unstructured way? Would they theoretically support a Khalistan movement, or would they infiltrate it and bring it down? I understand what you are saying, but you don't seem to be factoring these people's history, and our own state into the equation. You wouldn't want to punish any b@stards that raped and killed Sikhs post Indira's farewell? It's not a bad idea to swell our numbers but this way seems a tad desperate and poorly thought out.

The Indian establishment has always seen the link up of Sikhs and Jaats in northern India as a threat. The Sikhs hold the border with Pakistan and the Jaats encircle the capital Delhi. Around the same time as the Sikhistan proposal, there was also a scheme that included floated by the East Punjab Maharajas to join with the Jaat states of Bharatpur, Dholpur and Alwar and to create a state between Lahore and Delhi called Jattistan. I know the name might give you a heart attack but that scheme would have created an untenable situation for both Pakistan which considered Lahore as vital to Pakistan and India which had Delhi as it's capital. So that situation although not carried out with the same vigour as Sikhistan has coloured the Indian govts view of both Sikh and Jaats. This is the reason why SYL was planned, so that there would always been a dispute ready to break any Sikh-Jaat unity. The Hindus who disowned Punjabi were the Hindus in present day Punjab and the Punjabi Hindu refugees who had been resettled in northern Haryana areas after 1947. Jaats have always been Baagri/Haryanvi speaking. Those who live with Sikhs in the border areas of Haryana with Punjab speak Punjabi and Haryanvi but the vast majority of Jaats speak Baagri/Haryanvi. All communities even the Dalits and Muslims took part in the Sikh genocide in 1984. I am not glossing over the fact that many Jaats also took part but we need to consider what is the best interests of the Panth now. I have mentioned before that many of the Kharkoos of the Majha area would have been descendants of those Chaudris who had joined in the mass murder of Sikhs under the Mughals and yet when the Khalsa took power while the Chaudris were punished, their families were allowed to live and later joined the Khalsa. We need pragmatism in the Panth today. The mass conversion of Jaats and with them the minor castes of their areas would negate all the anti-Sikh policies of the Indian govt since 1947. Sikhs would retain a majority in Punjab and would be a minority of over 30-35% in Haryana, at least 15% of Delhi and 20% of western UP and 50-60% of Ganganagar/Hanumangarh. This would also bring in sea change to the perception of Sikhism in the Indian mind. From being a Punjabi centric religion, we would have an almost equal Hindi speaking population. First Punjab, then the neighbouring states and then Northern India. From 25M we would go to 40M and when we hit 50-60M any Indian govt would never be able to repeat 1984 again. This may sound like wishful thinking but the potential of Jaat conversion to Sikhi offers that as a real possibility.

Nice katha on the jaats of bharatpur by Mahakaal Gurdyal Singh https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=612587893465993&id=100041443626889

does sangat here think nihangs were corrupted by the time sgpc came into being their history is very incoherent during british raj, from being wiped to verge of extinction by british after battle of sabraon and emigrating to sri hazur sahib, to being in control of sri akal thakt and fighting for sikh rights to bear arms many say nihangs retained a presence in the akal bunga, but then how can they let mahants place idols inside parkarma, let british set sri darbar sahib up for auction in 187?, or let discrimination against dalit war veterans from entering sri darbar sahib, etc. what are your thoughts on baba sahib singh ji and his encounter with sgpc

as far as I can tell, basically nihangs worshipping shastars although, technically Dhan Dhan Guru Granth sahib ji Maharaj adorns shastars in front, when we bow down to them but I think namaskaar and worship are different (as the former is done during gatka as well) can't send links cuz it takes forever to send any thoughts on the former topic of baba sahib singh ji removed by sgpc and any thoughts on the singh sabha movement I know some people aren't too fond of the sgpc and some akalis but I still respect babbar akalis and etc. and any thoughts on baba binod singh ji and do you think he committed treason at the battle of gurdas nangal or is this mughal propaganda that survived to this day to put bigan in panthic unity

Idk anything on shastr pooja is it right to do? Also what is it?

article: When the 'Nihangs' took control of the Akal Thakt in 1920s any thoughts sangat ji on singh sabha/gurudwara sudar lehar and nihangs also, I am agianee thus far on the topic of shastar puja, where some panthic nihang singhs like akali mitt singh ji supported it meanwhile sgpc banned it and how come is it that nihang history during the british raj so incoherent when at one point they were at the point of extinction after battle of sabraon and most emigrated to sri hazur sahib but the next they were in control of sri akal thakt and fighting for sikh rights to bear arms (same goes for sgpc/singh sabha/gurudwara sudar lehar that is also very polarizing from different accounts of history) another point of historical discussion is what I mentioned earlier on baba binod singh jathedar budha dal and baba banda singh bahadur youtube video: gurmat bibek channel, in defense of baba banda singh bahadur I had links but those took days to get approved sangat ji

article: When the 'Nihangs' took control of the Akal Thakt in 1920s any thoughts sangat ji on singh sabha/gurudwara sudar lehar and nihangs also, I am agianee thus far on the topic of shastar puja, where some panthic nihang singhs like akali mitt singh ji supported it meanwhile sgpc banned it and how come is it that nihang history during the british raj so incoherent when at one point they were at the point of extinction after battle of sabraon and most emigrated to sri hazur sahib but the next they were in control of sri akal thakt and fighting for sikh rights to bear arms (same goes for sgpc/singh sabha/gurudwara sudar lehar that is also very polarizing from different accounts of history) another point of historical discussion is what I mentioned earlier on baba binod singh jathedar budha dal and baba banda singh bahadur youtube video: gurmat bibek channel, in defense of baba banda singh bahadur had links but those take days to get approved sangat ji

1Anonymous1 so bhai sahib, you agree with the nihang singh side of this? we are lucky enough to have some singhs in dals still alive from the 30s and 40s and 50s if not those times, so research and preservation of the dal's side of the history is atiant jaruri. I feel like this event is central to the broad traditionalist vs. reformist schism throughout history which has been as llight as mutual respect between Akali Phula Singh ji and Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and as raging as singh sabha movements of Amritsar and Lahore, to the eroded history between Baba Binod Singh/tat khalsa and Baba Banda Singh bahadur to date with missionaries and puratan dals/sampardayi with sgpc in the middle this part of history is confusing, cuz it would villainize either the Babbar Akalis or the diminish the honour of Shrimoni Akali Panth Buddha Dal and I certainly do not want to open old wounds of bad blood

The traitors of the motherland are those who have forsaken Sanskrit on which the Granths are based. And deny 2/3rds of its teachings. As well as many others including those who betrayed Banda Bahadur (by aligning with the Moghuls who he was recruited to fight) and who was the first person to secure true victory for Indians, as well as those who sided with the British for a few bucks in the 1857 First War of Independence. And there are those traitors who deny their Hindu roots that even the Gurus did not deny. Perhaps recruiting those to 'get the numbers up', who neither understand these roots or belong to an alien culture is largely to blame. And hence the widespread ignorance within the panth that is in a flux and engaged in petty infighting and ripe for destruction (via drugs and alcohol) and conversion. And which refuses to apply simple remedies because they're not from the Granths! ? Punjabi is not the only language of Punjab. My mother's mother tongue was Multani a language of Multan which is now in Pakistan. She had to learn Punjabi after marriage and move to Ludhiana as she only studied Hindi and English at school in Delhi. Anyway with the mass conversion of Sikhs into Christianity they will probably be less interest in Punjabi when English could be considered their mother tongue. It is this menace from within you should be shielding against. In 500 years where is the body of literature, intellectual rigour and philosophical reasoning, art and creativity, architectural and historic buildings that go to mark and sustain a culture?