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I would dismiss as conspiracy theories when it was said that the CIA (and Pentagon) were the chief drug and child traffickers on the planet. This is how they make their money. Never in a hundred thousand years will this corrupt system ever admit this to be the case. They still want the people to believe there's a multitude of James Bond-type figures running around, saving the world so we can sleep safe in our beds. The reality is that James, if such a figure existed, was most likely sharing the spoils with Blofeld!

This is what I have been saying. We need to get more people in areas around and in punjab into sikhi instead of constantly badmouthing india and indians and getting our people killed in unplanned physical fight against the state. If you dont have the numbers yet then we have to be chalaak like christians and muslims and try to gain numbers first through conversion and births. I mean the catholic church is corrupt as hell but they are still hellbound on getting people into their religion because they know high numbers = more support. Our people need to learn from these people. We dont need higher numbers to do evil things like these other religions do but more geniune sikhs= more prosperity for the areas we are in.

This Pew Research Center study describes the religious makeup of India’s population, how it changed between 1951 and 2011, and the main causes of the change. The analysis focuses on India’s three largest religious groups – Hindus, Muslims and Christians – and also covers Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains when suitable data is available. Hindus make up 79.8% of India’s population and Muslims account for 14.2%; Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains account for most of the remaining 6%. Between 1951 and 2011, the share of Muslims in India grew modestly, by about 4 percentage points, while the share of Hindus declined by about 4 points. The shares of Indians in other religions held relatively steady. Muslims are growing somewhat faster than other groups because they tend to have more children. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/21/key-findings-about-the-religious-composition-of-india/

This is the absolute crux of the matter; to find a girl who's pretty enough to get the lad hot and bothered BUT not too pretty that her attractiveness has made her a target for other lads from the moment, as they say in Punjabi, her jawani char gayi in her mid-teens onwards. Before the undercover brahmgyanis chime in about prioritising kamayi and Gurmukh values, for those of our people who don't float around in their own little Satyug that keeps the rest of the Kalyugi world out (a bit like Trump's non-existent wall), these are valid considerations that should be looked at in detail for the rank-and-file people of our community. If the guy himself is between the 4-7 range of attractiveness, he needs to look for a girl within the same range. BUT Punjabi guys (and men in general) over-estimate their physical appeal. A man, more than anyone, has a tendency to inflate his own sense of being. He finds it very difficult to process that he may not be what he thinks he is. A guy in this 4-7 range (which is the vast majority of males on the planet) going after a 9 or 10 girl is living in cloud-cuckoo land if he thinks even a typically middle-class, middle-income job (£30-60k) is going to keep a top-tier girl placated for the next 40-50 years of her life (or at least until she lets her self go or hits the menopause depending on what comes first. Even then her appeal to men may fade, but her aadataa -- habits -- will be nigh on set in stone. If they're rotten since decades eariler, the guy is in for trouble). I'd go as far to say that even a multi-millionaire would need to be on-top of his game from the day he's married to the day he drops dead in order to keep a 9 or 10 as his wife. Today, more than ever, a girl's history counts so much. From what I've seen, the majority of apne guys live in a world that is detached from reality. They may consider themselves street-smart and worldly, but in many respects their understanding of the world is, IMO, based on an inaccurate simulation of a wider culture they don't truly understand. As such, those blind-spots is where they end up being blind-sided by the unforeseen. Then you've got to figure out whether her jawani had indeed gone to her head quite a while ago, or if she's been sensible with it. The answer to this question, IMO, comes IN PART from studying the immediate family, i.e. the dad, mum, and siblings.

@proudkaur21 re: the topic title. ?

If it's that important to you, you better be sharp. If you want to go for a beauty queen who's had guys buzzing around her from young, you might be setting yourself up for suicide. Use your brains to avoid this or you'll only have yourself to blame.

What are you trying to do? Depress me?

I just re-read this after a decade (tonight). It's relevant stuff and has the potential to be a modern Panjabi classic. Read it if you can.

I don't think that's any different to much of working class UK.

I’ve never come across an apana that brings any trade skills from Punjab when they come over either as students or through marriage. Driving a tractor-trolley is probably the only skill they can transfer over to, perhaps, trucking, lol. They don’t really value quality trademanship over there from what I’ve seen. You get hacks and jugaadis doing odd jobs around the pind with more artistic trades being brought in from other states (at least that’s what I saw from the few villages I visited). I didn’t see construction companies comparable to even the small-sized ones apaney often start here in Canada, and probably same for UK. The bigger construction projects like roads and towers (in Mohali) appeared to be run by non-punjabis, including the labor. Vast number of apany fall into trades when they arrive here, yet they never bother learning these skills from back home, instead they pursue useless degrees that have no value here or in their native place. There’s no career counselling and diversification in the schooling system. Kids go through the system for the sake of it, not to actually pick up skills they could use in their local economy

How's the construction industry going on in Panjab? I see loads of other Indians, even here in the UK, doing high level jobs in that field, and they look like they've been trained back home. Why isn't this industry blowing up in Panjab? What about structural engineers, civil engineers etc etc.

That is THE most contributing factor for reduction in children, in combination with the lower stigma with using birth control in our community (relative to other Indians). Also, partition terminated the Jatt expansion in the canal colonies and left us with smaller land holdings and less fertile options (like Rajasthan). This meant we could only squeeze out 1-2 generations post-partition of large families with secure land holding transfers with expansion potential. The situation now is that most land holdings are already quite small and farming families know there is no chance of maintaining their economic status without finding a job in the city. So, whether they have 2 kids or no kids, their fortunes are stunted unless they create businesses or expand their skills. In this sense the other castes are doing quite well in fact. They have their businesses that are generating decent steady incomes and easier opportunities for growth (easier to open up a small shop than it is to purchase enough agri land for sustainable income). I’ve seen in my own ancestral village where the dalits have opened up small shops in front of their homes or have ventured out into nearby townships and started small businesses. Quite remarkable actually as they’ve managed to eclipse the stagnant jatt families.

That's right. Even if we think spiritually, gurbani tells us to spread the True Naam in the world. Guru Amar Das ji set up manji system where accomplished gursikhs were chosen to do parchar of sikhi on non Sikhs.

I agree, so it looks like we're in a proper sandwich situation. Makes you rethink the whole supply chain to Panjab.

yes all these guys who survived to claim 'aristo' titles were ghadar/traitors of the highes order, look at all the actual akalis and sikh loyalists they were assasinated , imprisoned etc

Maybe this is anecdotal but I get the impression that low birth rates in Sikh families back in Punjab might have something to do with the entanglements that arise between brothers who have to vie for a limited acreage of inheritable farmland. We all know that for those people, accepting one's rightful share is sometimes never enough. It's not the complete picture but I think it's a contributor. EDIT: I forgot to write my main point: The more siblings there are born to one set of parents, the less each sibling receives of the land from the father's estate. In the higgledy-piggledy thinking of modern Punjabis, I think they see themselves as being generous to the couple of kids they do end up producing by limiting the extent to which their generational land is divvied up between offspring, i.e. jameen split between 2 sons will go further than if it was split between 5 sons, which would obviously raise the potential for conflict if one or more Lady Macbeths (?) found themselves whispering conspiracies into the ears of their husbands at the expense of the other sibling/s. At least that's how they try to justify their disinterest in raising children.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/india-extradition-case-against-three-british-sikh-men-collapses/articleshow/86437798.cms India extradition case against thre .. Read more at:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/86437798.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst The men, all born and raised in the UK, all married with children, had been arrested at their homes in December 2020 based on extradition warrants following an extradition request from India accusing them of conspiracy to murder Rashtriya Sikh Sangat leader Rulda Singh in India in 2009. Mark Summers QC, representing Piara and Gursharanvir, told the court: "This vindicates the defendants who have been pursued for 11 years without evidence." He said the "threat in the note" that India may want to start again is "frankly disturbing". "Not only does it involve the prospect this 11-year ordeal may not be at an end for my clients, but it may be abusive," he said. Edward Fitzgerald QC, representing Amritivir, said the extradition request was "made on the basis of wholly unsubstantiated allegations", that his client was not even in India at the time of Rulda’s murder, and that he "has always maintained his innocence right from the start".District judge Michael Snow said: "I discharge all of you. Nothing has been proved against you and you remain innocent of the charges." He said any further extradition request would need to come back before him so he could see if there was further evidence before any warrant was issued.Outside court a representative of the family read out a statement hailing it as a "victory for the Khalsa Panth" and called for an independent inquiry "into why the home office accepted India’s extradition request into a case which the UK authorities already investigated 10 years ago and concluded no further action was required". "It is a disgrace to the British judicial system that the home office allowed this fabricated case to reach this stage. We never thought an extradition request against British-born Sikhs would be accepted — but it was. It is shocking that our extradition papers were signed a day after Dominic Raab returned from India after securing a trade deal with India," the representative of the family said. Dabinderjit Singh, principal adviser to the Sikh Federation (UK), questioned why home secretary Priti Patel had certified the extradition request. He called for her resignation. Sukhjeevan Singh, senior adviser to the Sikh Council UK, said: "This is something for our community to celebrate as UK-born Sikhs have faith in the judicial system in the UK. Today is a really a test of that faith and we are glad that this case, which did not have significant merit, was dropped." Share to TwitteThe men, all born and raised in the UK, all married with children, had been arrested at their homes in December 2020 based on extradition warrants following an extradition request from India accusing them of conspiracy to murder Rashtriya Sikh Sangat leader Rulda Singh in India in 2009.Mark Summers QC, representing Piara and Gursharanvir, told the court: "This vindicates the defendants who have been pursued for 11 years without evidence." He said the "threat in the note" that India may want to start again is "frankly disturbing". "Not only does it involve the prospect this 11-year ordeal may not be at an end for my clients, but it may be abusive," he said. Edward Fitzgerald QC, representing Amritivir, said the extradition request was "made on the basis of wholly unsubstantiated allegations", that his client was not even in India at the time of Rulda’s murder, and that he "has always maintained his innocence right from the start". District judge Michael Snow said: "I discharge all of you. Nothing has been proved against you and you remain innocent of the charges." He said any further extradition request would need to come back before him so he could see if there was further evidence before any warrant was issued.Outside court a representative of the family read out a statement hailing it as a "victory for the Khalsa Panth" and called for an independent inquiry "into why the home office accepted India’s extradition request into a case which the UK authorities already investigated 10 years ago and concluded no further action was required". "It is a disgrace to the British judicial system that the home office allowed this fabricated case to reach this stage. We never thought an extradition request against British-born Sikhs would be accepted — but it was. It is shocking that our extradition papers were signed a day after Dominic Raab returned from India after securing a trade deal with India," the representative of the family said. Dabinderjit Singh, principal adviser to the Sikh Federation (UK), questioned why home secretary Priti Patel had certified the extradition request. He called for her resignation.Sukhjeevan Singh, senior adviser to the Sikh Council UK, said: "This is something for our community to celebrate as UK-born Sikhs have faith in the judicial system in the UK. Today is a really a test of that faith and we are glad that this case, which did not have significant merit, was dropped."

I have noticed on this forum, I do not go on others, people more interested in the news rather than spiritual threads. I thought the whole point of a Sangat was deal and help our spirituality, but more interested in news thread, there was even a thread about Guru Nanak Ji fist Shabad and you allowed someone to say dogs b....... , VID-20210919-WA0000.mp4

Absolutely bro. We've yet to regain that level. Even in small, more recent ways, like having water drop microscopes way before the west even conceived of it, or bigger ways like all the megalithic structures we still can't build.

I don't know if that's true. Actually, I read that parts of Africa were very advanced before foreign invaders came

yes, there are still a lot of backwards Victorian values which have had an effect on our thinking, with some sikhs even doubting some of the Guru Sahibs' marriages! And also these values have affected how we follow sikhi, including some movements and jathebandis during colonial times! Not to forget that we use harmoniums instead of following keertani maryada in gurdwaras! Being religious instead of dharmik, and basically the degenerate behaviour now from villager sikhs both in the pends and in countries such as UK. Today I just saw a video of a marriage couple, that are both smoking; the groom is wearing red pagh with the trim beard that sikhs nowadays ritually grow for marriage.

Yes it does. All good and bad actions fall under the trai-gunn ( 3 gunns) you mentioned i.e. Rajo, Sato and Tamo. For this reason, anything done under these three gunns keeps us in this world and brings us back to this world through reincarnation. The only way to get out of this cycle is if we do what is beyond these 3 gunns. Only Naam Abhyaas and Gurbani Paath are beyond these three gunns. As for examples of each gunn, here is what I can think of: Tamo – Under this gunn, a person does all the bad things like atrocities, cruelties, murders, rapes etc. Rajo – Under this Gunn, a person has aspirations for worldly gains. A person working to become a CFO of a company or manager of a firm is driven by Rajo Gunn. Such people are not bad people but they have aspirations for worldly gains. They are house-holders who want to attain materialistic things. They don’t commit atrocities, cruelties, murders etc. as a person under Tamo gunn does. It is possible for a person living under Rajo Gunn to transform into one living under Tamo Gunn. Some times to attain their material goals, the Rajo people start doing unethical and immoral acts and gradually this leads them to become Tamo people. Sato – Under this gunn, people do good deeds and don’t have too many materialistic aspirations. They do charity work, feed the poor, help the needy, perform religious rituals like pilgrimages and other such good deeds. Most of the acts of the world religions fall under this gunn. Gurmat Matt or Dharam is the only one that offers its followers something above the Sato Gunn. But the behaviour and objective of a Gursikh, by His kirpa, is far beyond all these entanglements. Because the Gursikh, with the practice or abhyass of Nam Simran, is guided and protected by the Shabad Guru. In this way, we as gursikhs must feel privileged as wadbhagee jeevas and thank Him for His beant bakshish, beant Daya meher, that while the whole world is under the three gunns, we make a border line with aid of Gurmat, so that we do not feel its effects, because we have taken sharan of Wahiguru Akal Purukh as the only reality and everlasting Truth. Nobody is born perfect, but with the aid of Gurmat, no matter if one is worst sinner, then too, one can become a polished diamond or a garland of flowers at His Lotus Feet. His power is infinitely beyond any karmas, any sanskaras, any sato, rajo or tamo gunas. Sikhee is far above any philosophies. While one is already condemmed by being imbued with rajo or tamo gunas, but then, even if one is full with sato gun, this will take one as far only as per the heights of heavenly paradises, Swarg or Baikunth planes . While with Gurmat, we board the plane of Naam, and reach our destiny Sach Khand, which is unaccesible otherwise, no matter what one may do. Such is His Beant wadeeayee, by blessing us with His gyan, through Gurmat. Sat Sree Akal.

Waheguru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't have krodh at all. They fought against tyranny and protected the weak, this included muslims too. Muslims were persecuted as well during mughal rule. Each chakkar and arrow by Guru Ji was a gift and it had gold in it so if the person died the family would get gold or if the the person got injured they could get medicine to get better. One thing to add is that Aurangzeb didn't know all that was going on, his officials and hindu bahman advisers kept a lot of information from him. Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't say this. In the Zaffarnama by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to Aurangzeb, Guru Ji told how despite Aurangzeb being a great leader he did not live like a person who would after doing his prayers towards Mecca. It's said Aurangzeb started to smash his head on the wall after he read the Zaffarnama and realized what had been going on because a lot of his underlings weren't relaying the information properly.

That story seems to come from Bhangu's Panth Prakash, and it isn't Guru Gobind who says it. The following is from the English translation by Kulwant Singh:

TFR's are going down world-wide, people are having less children. There are studies to suggest that by 2100 that the world population COULD be lower than it is today. We Sikhs are just ahead of the curve compared to some of the other communities in India. You need to a TFR of about 2.1 to maintain populations but there are countries that have lower TFR than that.