Ban On Short Hair Marriages

[Jaspaul Singh]

in the same way i can prove that only sikhs did anand karaj in purataan times, you cant prove that non-sikhs did anand karaj in purataan times. So that arguement is not valid.

Look at 99% of "sikh" marriages, no one pays attention to anand karaj, except close family and relatives. The groom grows a trimmed beard, which is shaven off right after the anand karaj "ceremony" and the bride and groom do parkarma of guru sahib 4 times, without knowing the meaning.

How can you say this is not a ritual?

Ma bye banning non-sikhs from anand karaj isnt the right step to take, but something has to be done to change how marriages are done in gurdwaras. Atleast the CGPC (whoever they are) are trying to do something, atleast their motvie is right.

We just sit on the computer and complain on forums and blogs, atleast these people are doing something

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I guess we are kinda on the right track...

BUT.. i disagree with you when you say that CGPC are doing whatever they are doing for our best .. NO .. they did something that will FURTHERMORE divide up the panth, AND PEOPLE WILL FURTHERMORE draw AWAY from sikhi...

THAT IS THE WRONG SOLUTION...

Maybe veerji you wanna read my big post 2 before this one... i explain in there how marriages are done in there.. and i agree with you now (i thought you meant something else wit ritual..) but i agree with you now that all we doing now is like a ritual... BUT..

i also gave a solution to that..

AND the solution is not CGPC.. the solution is EVERYONE get off the a** and do your own prachaar. We have many talented individuals on this forum. IF you know someone whos getting married, and is related to you maybe you would wanna go up and help them in making the right decisions and so that there is not any beadbi done...

I have not done this in the past, but i am planning to as soon as i know someone whos marriage is coming up and that i know them well..

How else can you stop them ?? Remember the post not so long ago about bringing guru ji in party halls. That family whos marriage it was wouldnt agree that this was beadbi ... they were too arrogant to not listen to us, why ?? Cuz we werent explaining to them PROPERLY...

WE have to do it the RIGHT way and that is through pyaar, and not by FORCE how CGPC is doing... whoever they are... its wrong...

bhul chuk maph!

[Princess]

Thank you for stealing my words Daasn Daas Somehow you're looking at my screen and stealing what I'm about to post <_<

I think whoever these people are, CGPC, should hold a meeting in which the community can participate in. Just giving an order without listening to different sides isn't right. Since they mentioned "its sad how people shave their beards, ESPECIALLY YOUTH" I think that the youth have a right to speak up. I don't know how these types of meetings are usualy held etc, so maybe someone who has more knowledge can organize one :TH:

Passing a ban on only amritdhari Sikhs can get a Sikhi Wedding performed at the Gurudwara is in no way going to solve the bigger issues that the Gurudwaras are facing these days. I think we all need to first think about that.

It's not only us "monai" who stand around talking while a wedding is going on 'checkin out guyz/gurls' and what not, I have seen many amritdhari people as well. So to say monai do this and that at the Gurudwara and their weddings should not be performed is not the answer because we can say the same about amritdharis.

Differentiating between Sikhs is what is breaking our Sikhi religion. Instead of shunning and banning us, how about showing us the right way? How about we do something that will show the youth whether they are monai or amritdhari what Sikhi is truly about. How about we hold events in which EVERYONE can come out and learn about Sikhi? How about everyone give EVERYONE a CHANCE to learn about Sikhi instead of totally cutting them off.

[All-Info]

in the same way i can prove that only sikhs did anand karaj in purataan times, you cant prove that non-sikhs did anand karaj in purataan times. So that arguement is not valid.

Look at 99% of "sikh" marriages, no one pays attention to anand karaj, except close family and relatives. The groom grows a trimmed beard, which is shaven off right after the anand karaj "ceremony" and the bride and groom do parkarma of guru sahib 4 times, without knowing the meaning.

How can you say this is not a ritual?

Ma bye banning non-sikhs from anand karaj isnt the right step to take, but something has to be done to change how marriages are done in gurdwaras. Atleast the CGPC (whoever they are) are trying to do something, atleast their motvie is right.

We just sit on the computer and complain on forums and blogs, atleast these people are doing something

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A straight reply to this is, STOP EVERYONE FROM GOING TO THE GURDWARA WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHY THEY ARE GOING.

End of discussion.

See the point? Its extreme. Thats the view people will be taking. Just because you dont know why you are doing Lava does not prove anything. Apologies but it doesnt. That just says the same to a lilttle kid running to Maharaj Parkash, headbuting the floor and runnin away. Why does that kid do that? Because they dont know why they doing that. Any one see the similarity? Logical.

In islam, muslims bow down to allah as the "Submit" to him as he is more powerful.

In Sikhi, we bow down, give our head and say"Guru Ji, hears my head, do with it what you wish, its yours. Play football with it if you want. Its yours not mine". How many people understand that? Not many at all. Untill recently, i never knew that. I jst thought i go and do matha to show respect. If there is not enuff education then how will people know?

Instead of placing a ban, which is pointless, like i said, might as well ban people going to the Gurdwara instead, how about put up some screens, translate the Gurbani into english for those who dont know it! Its not like the Gurdwara dont have the money is it! That exposure to Bani is all thats needed. You put up something which people can read, they read it. Why? coz in a wedding all you do is get bored, lets face it, its why the older generations chat so much and the kids run wild. If they are reading something, they soon calm down. Proven fact in our Local Gurdwara.

Simple solution but instead of taking steps to assist people, what do we do? push them away.

One other thing i forgot to write, only rememberd coz someone i think wrote it above (anjaan)? What use it is growing your beard and not cutting your hair for a month or whatever people do for wedding? Is it to look nice on your wedding today with a beard and a Dastar on? Whats the point? you just make yourself look stupid and worst of all, do be admi to my Guru. i told my cousin straight, he trims his beard but kept it for the wedding. What is the point? Who are you trying to fool? Guru Ji? By sitting in front of him for that short period you think he wont know that before you cut your beard, and as soon as you get home, its comming off again? Its more preferable to go there infront of maharaj and get the blessing in the body of who you are. Anyone can look Sikh, not hard. Sikhs were mistaken for afghans were they not after 9/11? Turban and Beard? Same principle works the other way, jst put Kara and Kirpan on one of them, hey presto, they look amritdhari (you wont see the Khanaga or Keshera as hidden). Face facts, cant fool anyone. If any ban is to be put in place its no ban! Jst friendly advice to say, this is what a sikh is, please try your best to follow it, COME AND LEARN bout sikhi, how beautiful it is, and soon the person will come in, keep hair, stop eating meat/smoking/drinking etc etc

Banning anyone doesnt do no good at all.

Apologies for the long post and the offences made. I know i must have made a couple. I can only apologise but sometimes reality can be hard. Please forgive my mistakes.

WJKK WJKF

[All-Info]

in the same way i can prove that only sikhs did anand karaj in purataan times, you cant prove that non-sikhs did anand karaj in purataan times. So that arguement is not valid.

Look at 99% of "sikh" marriages, no one pays attention to anand karaj, except close family and relatives. The groom grows a trimmed beard, which is shaven off right after the anand karaj "ceremony" and the bride and groom do parkarma of guru sahib 4 times, without knowing the meaning.

How can you say this is not a ritual?

Ma bye banning non-sikhs from anand karaj isnt the right step to take, but something has to be done to change how marriages are done in gurdwaras. Atleast the CGPC (whoever they are) are trying to do something, atleast their motvie is right.

We just sit on the computer and complain on forums and blogs, atleast these people are doing something

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[Pheena]

It seems there is an evolution to being an Amritdhari:

Sehijdhari > Kesadhari > Rehitdhari > Amritdhari.

You feel you have exclusive right to the Guru when the Guru himself loves all equally. It is you who Surrender to the Guru, your Surrener does not mean the Guru Loves you more and others less. In the eyes of the Guru Are all not worthy to be his Sikhs? It is thru your surrender that you become more available to his everpresent Grace (kirpa) and Love. It was always flowing towards you and everyone. I understand this exclusiveness for how can just a passer by who has no hair on his head , doesn't even follow the Rehit properly have a ceremony infront of my guru whom i surrenderd to when he has done none of those things. Does the Guru care only for his Amritdharis? and cares none for the rest who seek his grace to become like his image?

You failed to see the progression of your Kamai. you were born in this lifetime with such blessings, but how were you in your previoius lifetimes? Were you always sikh, were you not once a Mona? How we forget our progress to where we have reached, yet still we mock those who are still progressing. Don't condem me for what i Lack. I know what i Lack. What was so easily presented to you in this lifetime does not mean it is that simple for everyone.

when i say 'you' i do not mean anyone specifically, Just some Observations and thoughts

this might be offtopic from teh main Marriage issue, so i apologize.

[Princess]

Instead of placing a ban, which is pointless, like i said, might as well ban people going to the Gurdwara instead, how about put up some screens, translate the Gurbani into english for those who dont know it! Its not like the Gurdwara dont have the money is it! That exposure to Bani is all thats needed. You put up something which people can read, they read it. Why? coz in a wedding all you do is get bored, lets face it, its why the older generations chat so much and the kids run wild. If they are reading something, they soon calm down. Proven fact in our Local Gurdwara.

Exactly, when i went to the Waterloo Raensbhai in February (for those that missed it there's one coming up SOON ) there was a projector/screen up with translations of the kirtin going on at the time

That was very beneficial for me personally because I could understand what the kirtin was saying and some of the kirtin really got to me, and got me thinking.

I mean, i could read/understand Punjabi, i can even speak hindi, and i always used to complain as a child that i didn't want to go t the gurudwara because "i didnt know what the people were saying". However a friend who is amritdhari told me that if i put my mind to it then Gurbani is not very different from normal punjabi. And that is very true.

We need people to help eachother not shun one another because that is giving us the idea you guys think you're better than others. right?

Great points All-Info, and Sony, Daasn Daas, and Mukhraj, and many others who replied <_<

[Harnek Singh]

Waheguru Jika Khalsa Waheguru Jiki Fateh,

I did not read through the responses so I may be repeating what other have said.

Its unfortunate that we've come to enforcing a rule to send out a message. I keep untrimmed beard and wear a turban. But I do not want to be judge by my appearance alone be it good or bad. The Guru Granth Sahib teaches us a lot and being an imperfect human, we may have violate some teachings from time to time. I do not want to see a ruling that divide our people. We want people to be into Sikhi because they're in love with God, not being enforced to it.

[Guest JSS]

i really do not think it's an issue of judging other people...none of us can say whether another is good or bad....

but it is an issue of preserving the spiritual sanctity of a beautiful ceremony...

anand karaj isn't only a vow between husband and wife...but the lavaan describes the progressive stages of our relationship with guru ji too...in a way...you're making promises to guru ji too...and i've been to tons of weddings where the groom will grow his kesh and dari for the morning and then be all shaved/cut for the reception and everytime i see this...i feel sad...i feel hurt because i feel that these people are making a mockery of guru ji....why bother including guru ji in a ceremony, why postrate in front of guru ji like good obedient disciples if we REALLY do not give a <admin-profanity filter activated> about following guru ji's hukam?...i mean...if someone isn't religious, that's great...i wouldn't consider them any less of a person..but there's no need to make anand karaj a "wedding ritual"...

and i know people probably saying...well the person's heart is into sikhi....you know i used to believe that too...but prof puran singh ji said something really beautiful...he said those who claim to love but refuse to wear the religious symbols (ie. take amrit) are fooling themselves becasue a BRIDE would NEVER take her ring off...

i hope i didn't offend anyone in this regard...and once again, it's not an issue of judging but an issue of respect for guru ji...

i think an alternative would be for people who aren't religious is to get a court ceremony done and then go to gurdwara and matha tek to guru ji and get blessings like that...at least that way you aren't making any promises to guru ji that you KNOW you aren't going to keep...and i think it shows A LOT of humility for someone to actually do that..do recognize that YES, i'm not following hukam, and that i shouldn't be stubborn about this....i think that person is great.........

now i understand that this initiative will probably fall flat...cuz most people are going to oppose it vigorously in the name of freedom and rights and all that bull...instead of being humble and following hukam...

so

i propose another initiative...

i think that the granthi singhs should take the time BEFORE the wedding and talk to the couple and thoroughly explain the deep spiritual significance of anand karaj...explain what guru ji is actually saying in the 4 lavaan...that way even if the couple decide to do whatever they want...they will at least know what it's all about and that knowledge might spark something within them....

perhaps these couples should be made to make a smaller commitment...maybe not take amrit or keep their hair right away...but some type of commitment so that they don't just forget about guru ji after the "big day"...maybe get them to commit to doing seva in langar every week, or jorayaa di seva...or anything...get them to commit to doing japji sahib every morning or 5 minutes of simran....something...

[S1ngh]

In this stage, issues like this should be avoided at all cost.

Having *rules* isn't gonna solve anything nor it will attract anyone into sikhi. Without any offense, talking about rules like this.. we more like sounds a Dictator dharam. Did sant bhinderanwale jee put ban on anything on the spot, no he didn't.. He did prachar and all singhs and singhniaa adopted real sikhi on THEIR own. Of course sant jee and countless other chardi kala singhs showed the world by actual living example.. not just do talk the talk. Of course their are limits on everything but GO for the positive future, even if we have to loose something.

Personally me, my mind do not approve of monay singhs and singhnia doing anand karaj in front of guru sahib jee. Neither my mind agree with monay paying visit to guru granth sahib jee while they are cutting their hair which is against sikhi. BUT what we can do, i probably do lots of stuff which is against sikhi so that doesn't make any difference between me and any other sehajdhari sikh. If you are keshdhari then thanks waheguru jee but don't think that you are Perfect enough to make rules for others. The only and only solution is prachar !

[Sher Khalsa]

Which Guru Sahib was it that composed the 4 Lavaan?

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Isn't Guru Sahib just 1...

Guru Nanak Dev Ji in 10 forms...

Guru Gobind Singh Ji's message will never contradict Guru Arjan Dev Ji's. NEVER...

and one more thing, Non-Sikhs were stopped from doing some types of sewa during guru ji's times... if you want to discuss sewa, we can in another thread.