degradation of kirtan

[Guest A Singh.]

To the first poster,

You are unaware as to where, when and the conditions under which that recording was taken. Unless you have heard the rest of the tape, rather than a short clip you found on the internet, you are in no position to comment on whether it is a beadbi or not.

Who exactly are you to comment what a Sikh does when they are in a state of love for their Guru?

I agree with you it is better to do Raag Keertan, but when Gursikhs get togther and do Keertan with pure Pyaar, regardless of how it sounds, alot of Anand can be obtained.

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 473

ma 1 ||

First Mehl:

a(n)dharahu jhoot(h)ae paij baahar dhuneeaa a(n)dhar fail ||

Those who are false within, and honorable on the outside, are very common in this world.

at(h)asat(h) theerathh jae naavehi outharai naahee mail ||

Even though they may bathe at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, still, their filth does not depart.

jinh patt a(n)dhar baahar gudharr thae bhalae sa(n)saar ||

Those who have silk on the inside and rags on the outside, are the good ones in this world.

thinh naehu lagaa rab saethee dhaekhanhae veechaar ||

They embrace love for the Lord, and contemplate beholding Him.

ra(n)g hasehi ra(n)g rovehi chup bhee kar jaahi ||

In the Lord's Love, they laugh, and in the Lord's Love, they weep, and also keep silent.

paravaah naahee kisai kaeree baajh sachae naah ||

They do not care for anything else, except their True Husband Lord.

dhar vaatt oupar kharach ma(n)gaa jabai dhaee th khaahi ||

Sitting, waiting at the Lord's Door, they beg for food, and when He gives to them, they eat.

dheebaan eaeko kalam eaekaa hamaa thumhaa mael ||

There is only One Court of the Lord, and He has only one pen; there, you and I shall meet.

dhar leae laekhaa peerr shhuttai naanakaa jio thael ||2||

In the Court of the Lord, the accounts are examined; O Nanak, the sinners are crushed, like oil seeds in the press. ||2||

[Jaspaul Singh]

at the beginning of most compositions, Maharaj clearly indicates in which raag it is to be played. Going against Maharaj's exlicit hukam in Guru Granth Sahib is manmat and hence unacceptable from the point of view of Sikhi.

Not playing kirtan in raag and hiding sin and incompetence behind the cheap excuse of "pyaar for Maharaj" is even more insulting. If you really love Maharaj than obey his command: learn and play raags. If it says raag Dhanasri then play raag Dhanasri and nothing else. As Guru Gobind Singh puts it: 'Rehat Pyari Mujhko ,Sikh Pyara Nahin'

Kirtan has its rahit, going against it is manmat. :e:

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Shamsher singh,

Yes we should learn our raags and sing the shabads as it is under a specific raag ... but it doesnt mean we HAVE to .. u know ? No where in guru granth sahib, or any hukam, or any rehitnama it says we HAVE to sing that shabad in raag. Yes that si how it was sung during guru jis time... but look at how life changed from guru nanak dev jis time to guru gobind singh jis time.. look how many new instruments emerged ... just like now .. more instruments emerged and the style is changing .. we can go against this but if its bringing someone closer to sikhi why stop it ? Next you guys are gona say ban da VAJA since it wasnt used during our gurus... why argue on this topic.. why ????

You have said nothing wrong veerji just the fact that many gurmukhs in da past of adopted this new style of kirtan and you saying that it is "manmat and unacceptable from the point of sikhi" is just wrong.. i dont know what level you are to judge such a comment but if your at such a stage i ask for forgiveness.. if not please dont make such remarks as it is like your attacking such gursikhs !!!

As for me i know you know a lot more than myself.. i know nothing.. so if i said anything wrong so far in this thread.. i ask for forgiveness..

bhul chuk maph :doh:

[shamsher]

Vahigurujikakhalsa

Vahigurujikifateh

With all due respect I wish to repond to a few people's comments.

Response to Daasn Daas:

You wrote:

1.

Yes we should learn our raags and sing the shabads as it is under a specific raag ... but it doesnt mean we HAVE to .. u know ?

We don't have to? Our Gurus specifically wrote down the raag in which their gurbani is supposed to be sung and you say we don't have to. Using your argument I could in an absurd way argue that even though the Gurus write about nam simran we don't have to do it. This is a non-valid argument as the raags are clearly mentioned and hence have the status of specific hukam regarding the performance of raag.

2. you wrote:

Yes that si how it was sung during guru jis time... but look at how life changed from guru nanak dev jis time to guru gobind singh jis time.. look how many new instruments emerged ... just like now .. more instruments emerged and the style is changing

This argument of times changing is exactly the one used by mone to justify their cutting their hair. This argument has no basis in Sikhi whatsoever. The Raag system has not changed in its principles hence there is no reason to depart from it. New instruments have indeed emerged, some suited for classical hindustani sangeet others don't. The criteria for acceptance is the abality to imitate the modulations of the voice (different alamkars etc..) as well as the ability to reproduce the 1/4 tones of the classical Indian system. European music is limited to the 1/2 tones and a lot of its instruments are too limited in range to enter the realm of acceptance in classical Indian music (used in shabad kirtan). The violin and the guitar are exceptions whereas ALL keyboard instrulents by their very nature are utterly unsuitable.

Regarding the "times are changing argument" Guru Gobind Singh was once confronted by someone who said that times have changed and that there was no need of keeping kesh etc... Guru Gobind Singh's response was:

"The times have NOT changed. The sun is still the same, the moon is still the same, the stars are still the same". Suraj Prakash Granth also quoted in Giani Ishar Singh Nara's Zafarnama te Safarnama.

As Sikhi does not accept th enotion of linear time and as Guru's hukam has primacy over changes in fashion this arugment is equally non valid.

3.

You have said nothing wrong veerji just the fact that many gurmukhs in da past of adopted this new style of kirtan and you saying that it is "manmat and unacceptable from the point of sikhi" is just wrong..

How could a true Gursikh indulge in unautorised inovation? It's like saying that trimming your beard is ok as long as you love Maharaj! non valid statement.

Response to sarabloh_geeza:

1. You quote gurbani. At the beginning of your quote Guru Nanak clearly indicates that this is to be played in Raag Aasaa and not some filmy tune, bhangra tune or Sufi ritual!

2. The word kirtan does not appear in any way or sense in this shabad. This shabad does NOT refer to kirtan hence quoting it out of context is a non valid statement.

To conclude I just wish to tell this story:

There was once a king who had an ignorant servant who loved him dearly. He told his king: I'll kill anyone who tries to touch you!!! One day the king was having a nap and a bee landed on his nose. The servant drew his sword and killed the bee but in the act also killed his king whom he loved so much.

Love is no excuse for ignorance or incompetence.There are plenty of places now where raag vidya can be obtained. Go and learn raags and give Maharaj the seva his exalted status deserves. If not, please abstain from manmat by indulging in desecrating shabad kirtan.Maharaj deserves the best not less!!!

[shamsher]

Vahigurujikakhalsa

Vahigurujikifateh

With all due respect I wish to repond to a few people's comments.

Response to Daasn Daas:

You wrote:

1.

Yes we should learn our raags and sing the shabads as it is under a specific raag ... but it doesnt mean we HAVE to .. u know ?

We don't have to? Our Gurus specifically wrote down the raag in which their gurbani is supposed to be sung and you say we don't have to. Using your argument I could in an absurd way argue that even though the Gurus write about nam simran we don't have to do it. This is a non-valid argument as the raags are clearly mentioned and hence have the status of specific hukam regarding the performance of raag.

2. you wrote:

Yes that si how it was sung during guru jis time... but look at how life changed from guru nanak dev jis time to guru gobind singh jis time.. look how many new instruments emerged ... just like now .. more instruments emerged and the style is changing

This argument of times changing is exactly the one used by mone to justify their cutting their hair. This argument has no basis in Sikhi whatsoever. The Raag system has not changed in its principles hence there is no reason to depart from it. New instruments have indeed emerged, some suited for classical hindustani sangeet others don't. The criteria for acceptance is the abality to imitate the modulations of the voice (different alamkars etc..) as well as the ability to reproduce the 1/4 tones of the classical Indian system. European music is limited to the 1/2 tones and a lot of its instruments are too limited in range to enter the realm of acceptance in classical Indian music (used in shabad kirtan). The violin and the guitar are exceptions whereas ALL keyboard instrulents by their very nature are utterly unsuitable.

Regarding the "times are changing argument" Guru Gobind Singh was once confronted by someone who said that times have changed and that there was no need of keeping kesh etc... Guru Gobind Singh's response was:

"The times have NOT changed. The sun is still the same, the moon is still the same, the stars are still the same". Suraj Prakash Granth also quoted in Giani Ishar Singh Nara's Zafarnama te Safarnama.

As Sikhi does not accept the notion of linear time and as Guru's hukam has primacy over changes in fashion this arugment is equally non valid.

3.

You have said nothing wrong veerji just the fact that many gurmukhs in da past of adopted this new style of kirtan and you saying that it is "manmat and unacceptable from the point of sikhi" is just wrong..

How could a true Gursikh indulge in unautorised inovation? It's like saying that trimming your beard is ok as long as you love Maharaj! non valid statement.

Response to sarabloh_geeza:

1. You quote gurbani. At the beginning of your quote Guru Nanak clearly indicates that this is to be played in Raag Aasaa and not some filmy tune, bhangra tune or Sufi ritual!

2. The word kirtan does not appear in any way or sense in this shabad. This shabad does NOT refer to kirtan hence quoting it out of context is a non valid statement.

To conclude I just wish to tell this story:

There was once a king who had an ignorant servant who loved him dearly. He told his king: I'll kill anyone who tries to touch you!!! One day the king was having a nap and a bee landed on his nose. The servant drew his sword and killed the bee but in the act also killed his king whom he loved so much.

Love is no excuse for ignorance or incompetence.There are plenty of places now where raag vidya can be obtained. Go and learn raags and give Maharaj the seva his exalted status deserves. If not, please abstain from manmat by indulging in desecrating shabad kirtan.Maharaj deserves the best not less!!!

[Guest A Singh.]

When a Gurmukh is in a state of deep love for Satguru, he will spontaneously cry and laugh. For some, whether this is on their own at Amritvela, when performing Keertan to the Sangat or even whilst performing every day tasks whilst Japping Naam or reciting Paath, sometimes these emotions cannot be hidden due to their intensity.

Those spiritually gifted are able to see the Kamai of others when they perform Keertan to the Sangat, and some rare Gurmukhs are able to glance at one and see their spiritual state and the thoughts of their mind.

For other Gursikhs who have not yet reached that stage, we are in no position to judge, mock, ridicule or curse at the actions of those who are absorbed in recital of God's praises, no matter how odd they may seem to us. We should do Ardas that one day Guru Ji will bless us with such Anand that can barely be contained in the same way.

[drawrof]

sarabloh geeza,

it is not his spiritual state I have an issue with. I have had the blessing of being around people who have had crying and laughing happen to them.

The advice given by gurmukhs/mahapurakhs is to remain gupt.

I believe you all do understand my point, and although you may not agree with it, some are just offended because what they are comfortable with is being challenged.

for those who have read my post and see where I am coming from, you'll understand that it is the grandeur of kirtan in a king's court and the quality and eminence that I feel is being compromised.

as for the person who quoted that whole shabad in gurbani, I don't believe that it meant one gets intoxicated and then laughs and weeps, but how one is always intoxicated and the source is waheguru....whereas the rest of us weep and laugh during pain and pleasure.

[drawrof]

As a matter of principle as well, I am going to stop posting on this topic.

I have mentioned all I have wanted to. I wasn't going out of my way to be extra mean or offensive or even defensive for that matter.

I made my points, some agreed some didn't agree. (that is fair enough, I like the diversity in thought, and I am in no way stringent about this. I do have a preference and I promote that).

I hope everyone stays in chardiankallah, and I do apologize for being hurtful if it has somehow happened, I do not retract my points or their validity

waheguru ji kakhalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh!

[Sher Khalsa]

wjkk wjkf...

my 2 cents...

i try going every friday for simran at dixie to...

and its amazing i love it...

but drawrof has a point, i know for a fact a lot of gursikh uncles complained to daljeet singh that people are going GRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU in the middle of the simran, and it just throws of everyones concentration...

the simran is great, but i believe it would be even better if the GRUUUUUUUU's were left out...

no offence intended to anyone

wjkk wjkf

[shamsher]

Response to sarabloh_geeza:

1.

When a Gurmukh is in a state of deep love for Satguru, he will spontaneously cry and laugh.

Why is it then that this has to happen on stage? Is the stage the only place where those in love with Maharaj burst out crying "spontaneously"?

2. the track I have listened to cannot be qualified as kirtan. Kirtan is by defintion devotional music NOT a shamanistic ritual where people repeat a certain incantation repetively as loud as possible in order to produce a state of spiritual extasy.

3. And here come the core of the problem. These tears, laughter etc... can only be considered signs of true bhakti when they have not been induced by an external factor i.e. shamanistic repetitive rythm. This sort of "spiritual practise" is one of the reasons why Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemns uncontrolled forms of Vaishnavism in his Asa ki //.

It is the senses here that move the soul instead of the soul moving the senses. Kirtan obeys very subtle rules that totally contradict what is being done on that track. Each raag has a raasa or aestheticised emotion which is going to open up the bhava or main emotion in the listener.When the Gursikh is moved whilst listening to kirtan it is because of the bhava already existing in him/her and it does not come as a result of a fast breathing "naam japna". Sikhi is not shamanism!!!

[Sher Khalsa]

No where in guru granth sahib, or any hukam, or any rehitnama it says we HAVE to sing that shabad in raag.

Thats where i am going to have to disagree...

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said we must do keertan in raags, not only raags but raags in raags...

listen to Bhai Balbir Ssingh keertan he talks about it in that in his bir ras dasam bani keertan...