degradation of kirtan

[Guest Akaal108]

Singh let me be clear yaar..I simply don't have any problem him doing that in his house hold close doors but if he is screaming and yelling like this in Guru Maharaj Darbar ..this is nothing but insult to Guru Maharaj..straight up...it's not insult that  kirtan he is doing is not in raags but it's INSULT because he is screaming, yelling, distorting sacred word- Vahiguroo/Guru as grrrrrrrrguuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr infront of Guru Maharaj's Darbar. what is that ??

One of my freind who is new comer to sikhi ..i convinced her finally to go to bhai sahib harmeet singh ji's class at dixie .. she went ..she loved it and all but when she went to guru maharaj darbar to listen to the simran....same thing was happening for 3 minutes ..she got completely put off by them.she phoned me really disappointed..is this what you call simran?? if yes, then this is scary man...she and her mother walked off....she was really scared by how simran was done?? like as if they are posssessed with evil spirits in Guru Maharaj Darbar...now i have try my best to convince her that sikh religion does not beleive in this kinda screaming and yelling kirtan/simran and distortation of sacred word.. !

really disappointed !

Last thing i want to see on this forum people defending this kinda grrrrrrrrrgrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuu screamin, yelling simran.

101579[/snapback]

hmm..

like i said its TOTALLY upto the person how they want to listen to kirtan. Some get turned off by raag (sorry to say but people dont getinto sikhi all the same reasons).. if someone got turned off by this im sorry .. but im a living example that i got reli attached to sikhi BECAUSE of this type of kirtan...

... and i love simran on fridays and singh ... do u know how much sangat use to come on fridays... lol ... not too much ... its cuz of harmeets classes and SIMRAN ... that they do at the end... that the halls are PACKED now...

... singh u have ur opinion.. dats cool... lets dont attack anyone else...

101581[/snapback]

Thanks veer ji for your input.

Leaving all kirtanee's, jatha's who does this type of simran/kirtan ASIDE. The issue boils down to two things-

1. Screaming and yelling in the sangat in Guru Maharaj Darbar

2. Distortation of word- Vahiguroo as grrrrrrrguuuuuugrrrrrrrrr in Guru Maharaj Darbar.

Please comment on how you feel on 1,2...

Note: We are discussing issues here..i ll refrain myself from using name of kirtanee's, or jatha's who beleive in this kind of kirtan.

[drawrof]

dasn daas ji,

I am with you on the whole "lets not attack anyone"

my main point is...guruji told us which raag, which dhuni....kaanra ki vaar is

musay ki dhuni....

guruji didn't leave room open for other stuff, we have done that.

I would say that the premise is gurbani, but we won't feel what it is really about if we don't see the nuances that are contextualized through the raag...ie. raag basant is all about spring and growth. gauri bairaagan is all melancholy, sri raag is very serene and contemplative....

I say that to understand our guru, we should do it how our guruji wanted it.

[Jaspaul Singh]

Thanks veer ji for your input.

Leaving all kirtanee's, jatha's who does this type of simran/kirtan ASIDE. The issue boils down to two things-

1. Screaming and yelling in the sangat

2. Distortation of word- Vahiguroo as grrrrrrrguuuuuugrrrrrrrrr

Please comment on how you feel on 1,2...

Note: We are discussing issues here..i ll refrain myself from using name of kirtanee's, or jatha's who beleive in this kind.

1.... if ur referring to simran done on friday nites as this example im totalling against that cuz ive been going for the last 4 years or so (i stopped recently but my family goes and its still same).. and its just amazing..

.. but if a kirtanee goes into trance u can say and does it through pyaar.. i dont mind its sometimes not even in control of the kirtanee .. listen to some old skool dhulla ji from 70's .. or other kirtanees .. goto www.gursikhi.org... keertan.. then puratan smagams.. some of those r just WICKED..

now .. this example that drawof veerji gave us.. i never heard before .. but probably hes doing it out of control ? out of pyaar ? how do we know ?

2... i am not at that stage to comment... all i know ... anything done out of pyaar is good...

[Guest Akaal108]

1.... if ur referring to simran done on friday nites as this example im totalling against that cuz ive been going for the last 4 years or so (i stopped recently but my family goes and its still same).. and its just amazing..

nahi ji, i m refferring to 2nd file link drawof uploaded.

I know where this clip taken but i must refrain myself from place, who is doing it, which jatha is doing it..otherwise it will look like a attack on this forum.

[Jaspaul Singh]

dasn daas ji,

I am with you on the whole "lets not attack anyone"

my main point is...guruji told us which raag, which dhuni....kaanra ki vaar is

musay ki dhuni....

guruji didn't leave room open for other stuff, we have done that.

I would say that the premise is gurbani, but we won't feel what it is really about if we don't see the nuances that are contextualized through the raag...ie. raag basant is all about spring and growth. gauri bairaagan is all melancholy, sri raag is very serene and contemplative....

I say that to understand our guru, we should do it how our guruji wanted it.

101585[/snapback]

thats fine singh ... :doh:

but even guru ji said life goes on ... things change... not under our control...

... look how much youth is into sikhi right now ? r people fond of raag ?! i LOVE raag at times.. but sometimes hard to understand and i know its not what brought me into sikhi personally..

... we have to still KEEP raag puratan style alive.. no doubt.. but if we bring in something that youth will get more involved in sikhi and later understand the whole concept of raag and guru ji .. why not rite ?

... but i guess we are sort of on da same scale

[Jaspaul Singh]

1.... if ur referring to simran done on friday nites as this example im totalling against that cuz ive been going for the last 4 years or so (i stopped recently but my family goes and its still same).. and its just amazing..

nahi ji, i m refferring to 2nd file link drawof uploaded.

I know where this clip taken but i must refrain myself from place, who is doing it, which jatha is doing it..otherwise it will look like a attack on this forum.

101587[/snapback]

ya i commented on that file.. read my post again .. :doh:

[Balwinder Singh]

ie. raag bibaas (eyk ratee bin eyk ratee ke, by bhai avtar singh ji) is a raag which is not found anywhere in classical hindustani music, it was born and bred in the sikhs darbar......(and this is catchy)...why do put that aside?

Well everything is good for me if it talk about God with or w/o raag. But the above quoted shabad by avtaar singh ji is really really cool. If u havn't listened it.....go to sikhnet and listen it. Its simply amazing.

But I want to stress on raag kirtan cuz 'I THINK' guru sahiban wanted us to learn raags.

I dont know about the simran whether it was there before or not, but great souls like bhai raghubir singh ji bir, bhai randheer singh ji and many more stressed too much on simran.

Also, gurbani clearly indicte almost in every pankatee that jaap of hari's name is the only way to mukti.

[maltonak47]

Singh let me be clear yaar..I simply don't have any problem him doing that in his house hold close doors but if he is screaming and yelling like this in Guru Maharaj Darbar ..this is nothing but insult to Guru Maharaj..straight up...it's not insult that  kirtan he is doing is not in raags but it's INSULT because he is screaming, yelling, distorting sacred word- Vahiguroo/Guru as grrrrrrrrguuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr infront of Guru Maharaj's Darbar. what is that ??

One of my freind who is new comer to sikhi ..i convinced her finally to go to bhai sahib harmeet singh ji's class at dixie .. she went ..she loved it and all but when she went to guru maharaj darbar to listen to the simran....same thing was happening for 3 minutes ..she got completely put off by them.she phoned me really disappointed..is this what you call simran?? if yes, then this is scary man...she and her mother walked off....she was really scared by how simran was done?? like as if they are posssessed with evil spirits in Guru Maharaj Darbar...now i have try my best to convince her that sikh religion does not beleive in this kinda screaming and yelling kirtan/simran and distortation of sacred word.. !

really disappointed !

Last thing i want to see on this forum people defending this kinda grrrrrrrrrgrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuu screamin, yelling simran.

101579[/snapback]

i can counter tht n say tht me myself am one of the ppl thas been influenced by tht class and by the simran program on fridays at dixie..and tht i've seen others change to amazing gursikhs..so i don't c the point in caring abt tht one person who doesn't like the way simrans done ther... so if u had the chance of buliding 96 croree then u would rely on tht one bibi who doesn't like the way simrans done at dixie ? ... but ya i hav to agree...some ppl fake it or w/e... n i myself am not at the level wher i could judge ppl ... if u r ...congratualtions..i bow to u

[Guest Faujan]

i dont think anyone will be capable of convincing the other, sooo......... why doesn't everyone do it and lsten to it the way they want to, and leave the others to their way? :doh:

[drawrof]

daasn daas ji,

I agree with you, we are on the same scale.

I am pro-raag, and always will be. I find the appreciation of it is something that comes with experience and time, for myself...the gurbani just pierces me when sung within the correct raag. Again though a person can have musical skill, but an elevated soulwho does lets say akhand style or dharna style will have more influence on the sangat than a good musician...so I hear you with all that.

Trance like states were never allowed in guruji's darbar, bhai gurdas ji talks about this and this is why the sikh panth also referred to the naamdhari's as kukay. Sufi's also go into these trances, there is a whole maryada behind gestures etc in kirtan...ie, these days "raag" proponents will say "sa re ga ma" etc, during kirtan (according to old maryada, thats not allowed...alaaps were done with gurbani).

raag has the power to change atmosphere's.....ie. deepki is known for lighting candles, malhaar is to bring rain.....(it has happened, if you're interested, I'll post up something). if raag has that power, what power does bani with raag have on us? (I think guru ji was fully aware of that)..its like simran, only after one does abhyaas on their own do they know what guruji was talking about.

on another point, rag jaijavanti is a CREATION of guru tegh bahadur sahib, just like the TAUS is a CREATION of guru hargobind sahib!!!!! I mean stuff thats closer to us than the world is now being forgotten. Raag jaijawanti is popular amongst pakistani singers....ghazal, qawaali singers etc.

guruji's wisdom, snd our heart being pierced by gurbani should get us into sikhi...not tunes! (but amen to anyone who has been blessed with pyaar for sikhi).