WHAT DO YOU EAT!?!?!

[Balwinder Singh 16]

Thanks bravekhalsa ji for providing me the answers.But I still have some doubts,plz help me to understand it better.

We don't live according to 'Jainies' because we are Sikh and so were our Guroo's. Thats what you are supposed to follow the way our Guroo Sahib lived their lives without meat. Simple as that. Plus all Herbivorous animals have Square teeth. And so do you and me. All the Carnivorous have sharp Teeth so they can eat meat.

As u said guru ji spent their life without meat.I have read somewhere that guru sahibs did eat meat.

References:

1) http://www.sikh.com.au/sikhgurus/nanak.html

"" When the Guru visited Kurukshetra in Haryana, a big fair was being held at the holy tank to celebrate the solar eclipse. There were a large number of pilgrims all over the country. On his arrival at the fair, Guru Nanak had Mardana cook them a meat dish of a deer presented to them by one of his followers. Upon finding that meat was being cooked on the holy premises, a large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the Guru for what they thought amounted to sacrilege (Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123). Upon hearing the angry crowd Guru Nanak responded;

"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is meat and what is plant? Who

knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non- vegetarian?" (Malhar) """

2) http://www.sikh.com.au/sikhgurus/angad.html :

""On this day of their meeting, Guru Angad was eating meat and being a Vaishnav Hindu, Amar Das felt uncomfortable. Guru Angad told Amar Das that the meats one should avoid are envy, greed, ego, slander and usurpation of others rights. He told Amar Das that there is life in everything, whatever is eaten while remembering God is like nectar itself. Amar Das thus became a devoted disciple of Guru Angad. """

3) The same things are written in "the sikh religion" by maccauliff.

Chapter: Life of Guru Angad

pages:32-33.

4) I inquired from some people who told me that they heard the same things in some "sakhis".

I know we have flat teeths, but we have canines also.And we dont need canines to eat meat as we eat cooked meat...not uncooked.So we can eat meat with square teeth also.

Again we are not killing any living organism on purpose just to get milk from the cow. Again None of the Guroo Sahib's said we couldn't drink it either. There are tons of examples of milk feeding in gurbani. like this one (Forgive me Guroo Jee for this) Its doesn't say MEAT KHAYO GOBINDAY..... you get the pic.

About the cookies and cake thing. My mom makes both at home. As a matter of fact I m gona go have a cookie right now...  And she makes awesome cake

Please make it clear that what is ur concern.If "animal killing" is ur concern and thats why u drink milk, then what abt the following things:

1) we can kill less animals by just becoming like janis...there shudn't be anything wrong in it

as we are saving God's life.

2) what abt killing animals for medical reason...like disecting frogs.....is it UNSIKH to be a medical student? What abt testing medicines on animals? I think its worst when u make life of an animal useless by testing ur medicines over umm....how unhuman is that?

Regarding cookies and cakes (....first of all...u didn't invite us for that )...if they r not home cooked they surely have eggs in umm....And how do u justify having that?

And you didn;t answer my 3rd question.Please answer it.

Thnaks

[Khalsa4ever 6]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Those are some really good points... can anyone confirm those sakhis where the gurus did eat meat?

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Vaneet Singh 1]

Awesome post Balwinder veer ji...

amazing....all with references..a true masters student :umm:

:D :wub:

[akjforever 8]

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/rahit/rahit_hunt.ppa

THE SIXTH, SEVENTH AND TENTH GURU JI USED TO DO HUNTING --

BUT WAS IT FOR EATING MEAT ?

(By Bhai Prahlad Singh Ji) Some of the meat consumers try to justify their act through the hunting incidents by Guru Ji. They get false impression that if Guru Ji used to hunt animals, probably they used to eat their meat too. But various sikh scriptures witness that guru ji used not to hunt for eating. We read in many verses written by Guru Ji themselves, Bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which strictly and clearly instruct the sikhs against killing animals and eating their meat. It also does not fit with philosophy of "having mercy on creatures of God" and "Sarbat da Bhalla". Guruji clearly says mercy is mother of religion and without mercy the spirtual light can not be ignighted within anyone.

"Dhaul Dharam Daiya ka poot" in Japu ji Sahib.

and

"Nirdaiya nahi joti ujala" in Ramkali M. 1 page 906.

From the details given by Guru ji themselves about some of hunting incidents, it becomes very clear that the hunting used to be done to free their former followers or Bhagats from the cycle of death and birth as animals. Let us have a closer look on some of the huntings done by Guru Jis:

1. The hunting of a wild pig in Wadali (Amritsar) by Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj:

The incident has been described in "Tareekh Guru Khalsa at pages 488 - 489). One landlord (farmer) came to Guru ji and reported that there was one very dangerous wild pig in his sugarcane field. Since last few months this was a burdon to

people of this area, it detroyed their crops regularly. Many people tried to kill it but failed. Guru ji along with Panda Khan, Bidi Chand and Bhalan went for hunting this pig and killed it. Farmers were very pleased at this. At the time of his death this pig's soul started singing praises of Guru Ji. On being asked by Bhai Bidi Chand, the soul replied:

" I used to be sikh of Guru Arjun Dev ji and used to live in Beerh Baba Budha Sahib ji (near jhabal in Amritsar; now there is beutiful Gurudwara built there, the sewa of this Gurudwara was undertaken by Baba Kharak Singh Ji, a well revered sikh octogenarian saint) to serve Baba Budha Ji. When Mata Ji (wife of Guru Arjun Dev Ji) went in horse baggi to Baba Budha ji with a wish of son, Baba ji said "Guru ke mahala noo kidron bhaajarh pai hai". I did not like this comment of Baba Budha Ji, I got upset with Baba ji and passed some hot remarks to Baba Budha Ji. He said, "Soor vangu ghur-ghur karda firda hai, soor hoinga". Means you are groaning like a pig, and will become pig. Then I was scared and held the feet of Baba ji, and cried for being freed from pig "Juni". Then he blessed me, "The great son from the same Mata Ganga will free you from pig's body and will grant you Mukti (from cycle of birth and death)."

According to the above account GuruJi killed the above pig to grant Mukati to the former sikh of Guru-Ghar and he did it according to promise given by Baba Budha Sahib Ji. This hunting was by no means to eat pig's meat. It may be added here that Baba Budha Ji was honoured with service to Six Guruji,s and was loved very much by all of them. It was according to recognition of his spirtual level, that sixth Guruji sent Mata Ganga Ji to him for fulfulling her wish of a son -- Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.

2. Hunting of a lion in Dhaulpur (Rajasthan) by Sri Guru Hargobind Singh Ji:

History tells that Guru ji had to stay overnight in Dhoulpur on his way to Gwalier along with King Jahangir. The residents of Dhoulpur complained to

King Jahagir about a dangerous lion living in a forest near Dhaulpur. They requested that they may be freed from a constant danger from this lion by killing the lion.

Jahangir prepared his men for this hunting and took Guru Ji with him. Inspite of all efforts by King's persons the lion some how progressed near to king himself, then king asked for help to Guru Ji. Guru ji without any delay came ahead to combat the lion, and asked the lion, "Kal yamun! I give first chance to you to attack on me, use your full strength so that you don't repent it later on". The lion attacked first and Guru ji saved himself and then attacked with his sword and killed the lion.

Later the King and others asked Guru ji about the lion being called as "kal yamun" by him. Then Guru ji answered, " I know him from many "Yugas" and he was waiting for me here since long time. In "Doapar Yuga" when Krishna Ji killed Kans, and then defeated Jarasand for seventeen times. Eiteenth time Kal Yamun abbetted Jarasand against Krishna Ji. Krishna Ji then had to leave Mathura and take shelter in the cave of Rishi Manchkund. When Krishna Ji reached the cave of this rishi, he was asleep. Rishi Manchkunda had a blessing that just by looking at someone, he could burn him. Krishan ji put his safron coloured cloth on the Rishi and hid himself in the cave. Manchkunda followed Krishna ji to the cave, and thinking that the person under the cloth was Krishna ji, he woke up Manchkunda rishi. When manchkunda looked at him, the Kal yamun got burnt to death. Manchkunda repented at this death and asked the way to be freed from the sin which he earned by killing Kal Yamun. Krishna ji arranged a great "Yagia" (it was a religious act in Doapar) by building 68 "Kunda,s". Upon being requested by Manchkunda rishi that Kal Yamun might also be granted "Mukti", Krishna ji said, " I will grant him Mukti in Kalyuga".

So according to the promise given by Krishna ji in Doyapar Yuga, Guru Hargobind Singh Ji granted Mukti to Kal Yamun.

At

present there is a Gurudwara at the place where Guru Ji had hunted the lion in Dhaulpur. This hunting was done near to hindu temple of Manchkunda. This place is situated about 3 km west to Dhoulpur city and Gurudwara's name is "Gurudwara shri Sher Shikaar Sahib". Many of the Krishna's follower in Rajasthan (India) regularly arrage fairs at this Gurudwara and sing praises of Guru ji, they consider him reincarcenation of Krishna ji.

3. Shri Guru Hari Rai Sahib Ji -- a strange hunter

At page 594 of Tareekh Khalsa it is mentioned that Shri Guru Hari Rai Ji was very compassionate and mercyful at heart. He used to do hunting but he had issued special instructions to his men about not killing any animal. He used to catch the old, week and sick animals. He had kept hundreds of such wild animals, the proper care as far as their treatment and food was concerned used to be undertaken, and then the animals used to be left free in forest after some time. This is also supported by Mahima Prakash (Sakhi 167; pages 545-546, vol. 2), as it is written there:

"Pun Daiyal Shikaar chad aave, sikh surbir sang gur dhave, ban pasu pankhi khed bas kare, kou na maare, jeewat maare, grahe mo rakh palana hoi, khan pan dukh tine na koi, bhaye ikatra kaii lakh hazaar, pasu pankhi bagh bilian siar."

The writer of Mahima Prakash is of opinion that whenever Guru ji killed some animal it was for relieving animals from extreme pains or for spirtual freedom of the animals considering their good deed during previous births.

"Jab kabhu Shikar kash mare, mano mukat karta ko mare"

Once Guru ji saw a rattle snake who was in extreme pain and in old age. He was being eaten by ants and was shaking his head and tail with pain -- as if he was requesting Guru ji for help. Guru ji killed this snake with arrow and relieved him from pains as well as cycle of death and birth (Mahima prakash, vol. 2 page 563).

4. Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji hunted a rabbit near Nandedh (presently known as Shri Hazoor Sa

hib Ji):

Once a rabbit was running across a field near to the place where Guru ji was sitting. Guru ji killed the rabbit with an arrow. The rabbit finally fell and died at the place, where now Gurudwara Shikaar Ghaat has been built.

On being asked by sikhs, Guruji revealed the details. Guru ji said the rabbit used to be Moola Khatari during time of Guru Nanak Dev ji. Guru ji once went to his house to meet him. Moola hid himself in his house and told his wife to tell lie to Guru ji that Moola was not at home. As Moola's wife told the lie to Guru ji, Guru ji (knowing the truth) said a salok:

"nal kirada dosati koorhe koorhi pai,

Maran na jape moolia, aave kite thai."

(salok M. 1, page 1412 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

After this Guru ji left his home, Moola got bitten by a snake and died. People put Moola's body on a cot and brought to Guru Nanak Dev ji, and requested to forgive him. Then Guru ji said he will have to enter diffrent "Juni,s" due to his acts, but I will grant him "Mukati" in my 10th swaroop in Kalyuga.

Mahima Prakash and most of other sakhis give detail about the above hunting of the rabbit by Guru ji. None of them says that Guru ji ate this rabbit's meat after killing him. It is mentioned in all of these that Guru ji killed this rabbit to free Moola as per Guru ji's promise and grant him "Mukati".

We also have many other sakhis about of Guru Gobind Singh ji like --

(A.) Mukati of a bear who used to distributor of Prashad in Guru Arjun Dev Ji's darbar.

(B.) Hunting of a "Ghoghar" who used to be king. He became ghogar due to curse of a <admin-profanity filter activated> girl to whom he had raped.

(C.) Hunting of a Crow, who used to be sewadar in Langar of Guru Gobind Singh ji and used to remain upset and irritated all the time with sangat while doing sewa. Due to curse of a sikh of Guru ji he had to become crow.

(D.) Hunting of a Quail (I think "Tittar" in punjabi) who used to be a farmer.

The farmer had taken loan while swearing by the name of Guru ji that he would return the loan to other person. He did not fulfill his promise. So guru ji caught him, removed his wings and left before a falcon (this falcon was a trader who had given loan to the farmer) to balance the account of that birth, and fulfilling his duty as witness (because the farmer had sworn by the name of Guru ji while getting loan).

(E.) Removing a doubt of Pandit keshav Dutt at Naina Devi Mountain:

Guru ji went on hunting and killed many animals. Guru ji brought and put all these dead animals near to "Havan Kund". Pandit Keshav Dutt was surprised at this act and objected to it. As Pandit Keshav Dutt questioned Guru ji about killing all those innocent animals, Guru ji revived all those animals and let them walk in diffrent directions back to jungle. Then Guru ji explained to Pandit Keshav Dutt that he searched for these souls (animals) to whom he wanted to grant "Mukti" (which is attainable with Jap-tap otherwise). Now he would have to find them again, because they have missed one great chance of salvation (Mukti) due to Pandit Keshav's objection. Pandit Keshav understood the real motive, and asked to be forgiven for his ignorance.

As is mentioned in Gurubani, "satguru sikh ko ji naal saware, satguru sikh ka halat palat saware" (sukhmani sahib ji). Means Guru Ji always helps his sikh for betterment of his both worlds -- this world (Halat) and next world (Parlok or Palat). Even when sikh enters diffrent "junis" (of lower animals) due to his misdeeds, Guru Ji has mercy on him. He finds him in that "juni" and grants him a stage which otherwise is attained by rishis after spending centuries of meditation and innumerable other religious acts.

It is not justice with our Great Guru ji,s to say that they killed animals to eat their meat. When someone says Guruji ate meat, he commits a sin of blaming guru ji of "Avar updese aap na kare". Because Guru ji in their bani have prohibited clearly the eating of m

eat. They never allowed meat in their Langars. We can find some historical Gurudwaras with their own dairy farms and agricultural land attached to them because wheat, rice, vegetables and milk products used to be produced in them for being used in Langar. None of Gurudwara has Goat farm or poultry farm attached to it !! If Guru ji used to eat meat they would have raised these animals too.

TO SUMMARISE AND UNDERSTAND THE BASIC CONCEPT BEHIND HUNTINGS:

To understand correctly, why guru ji used to hunt, we can equate (to some extent) Guru ji to a judge in worldly courts. A Judge gives death sentence to some person after looking at all his past records. Death penalty by a judge does not mean that anyone can kill to a person without being aware of anything about his or her past. The Guru ji knew about "Yugas" of previous births of a soul, as is very evident from above sakhis. The Guru Granth Sahib ji witnesses about Guru Ji's such vision over past, present and future -- called in Bani as "Pardrishti". On the basis of that vision The Guru ji's used to grant "Mukti" to diffrent animals. It was not for the purpose of eating their meat.

It is written in Dasam Granth too about the huntings. But no where it says it was for eating their meat. Neither these huntings should be considered mercyless acts, because in fact Guru ji used to grant them Mukati out of mercy towards them, sometimes even ignoring their misdeeds. Moreover Guru ji is bestower of life and death and Mukati, he could kill and then revive .... do we fit in this category ?????

[akjforever 8]

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/rahit/rahit_meat.ppa

Dangers of Meat

There is no nutritional need for humans to eat any animal products; all of our dietary needs, even as infants and children, are best supplied by an animal-free diet. Our evolutionary ancestors were, and our closest primate relatives are, vegetarians. Human teeth and intestines are designed for eating and digesting plant foods, so it is no wonder that our major health problems can be traced to meat consumption.

The consumption of animal products has been conclusively linked with heart disease, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, and osteoporosis. Cholesterol (found only in animal products) and animal fat clog arteries, leading to heart attacks and strokes. A vegetarian diet can prevent 97 percent of coronary occlusions. The rate of colon cancer is highest in regions where meat consumption is high, and lowest where meat-eating is uncommon. A similar pattern is evident for <admin-profanity filter activated>, cervical, uterine, ovarian, prostate, and lung cancers.

Low-fat diets, particularly those without saturated fat, have been instrumental in allowing many diabetics to dispense with their pills, shots, and pumps. A study of more than 25,000 people over age 21 found that vegetarians have a much lower risk of getting diabetes than meat-eaters.

Osteoporosis, or bone loss due to mineral (particularly calcium) depletion, is not so much a result of insufficient calcium as it is a result of eating too much protein. A 1983 Michigan State University study found that by age 65, male vegetarians had an a

verage measurable bone loss of 3 percent; male meat-eaters, 18 percent; female vegetarians, 7 percent; female meat-eaters, 35 percent

In addition to the problems associated with too much fat, cholesterol, and protein, consumers of animal products take in far greater amounts of residual agricultural chemicals, industrial pollutants, antibiotics, and hormones than do vegetarians. The absorption of antibiotics through meat-eating results in antibiotic-resistent strains of pneumonia, childhood meningitis, gonorrhea, salmonella, and other serious illnesses.

Meat contains 14 times as many pesticide residues as plant foods. Fish is another source of dangerous residues. The EPA estimates that fishes can accumulate up to nine million times the level of cancer-causing polychlorinated biphenals (PCBs) found in the waters in which they live.

Ecological Arguments

More than 4 million acres of cropland are lost to erosion in the United States every year. Of this staggering topsoil loss, 85 percent is directly associated with livestock raising, i.e., over-grazing.

Throughout the world, forests are being destroyed to support the meat-eating habits of the "developed" nations. Between 1960 and 1985, nearly 40 percent of all Central American rain forests were destroyed to create pasture for beef cattle. The rain forests are the primary source of oxygen for the entire planet; the very survival of the earth is linked to their survival. The forests also provide ingredients for many medicines used to treat and cure human illnesses, and these resources have yet to be explored for their full potential.

Much of the excrement from "food" animals (which amounts to 20 times as much fecal matter as human waste) flows unfiltered into our lakes and streams.

The production of one pound of beef requires 2,500 gallons of water. It takes less water to produce a year's worth of food for a pure vegetarian than to produce a month's worth of food for a meat-eater.

Humanitarian Concerns

Rais

ing animals for food is an extremely inefficient way to feed a growing human population. The U.S. livestock population consumes enough grain and soybeans to feed more than five times the entire U.S. population. One acre of pasture produces an average of 165 pounds of beef; the same acre can produce 20,000 pounds of potatoes.

If Americans reduced their meat consumption by only 10 percent, it would free 12 million tons of grain annually for human consumption. That alone would be enough to adequately feed each of the 60 million people who starve to death each year.

Information taken from John Robbins, Diet for a New America (Walpole, N.H.: Stillpoint Publishing, 1987)

[Sunny 1]

does part time vegetarian count? :umm: j/k

I eat eggs.

[Gupt daasan daas 25]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

It is a disturbing thought that many Sikhs today believe that to attain spiritual enlightenment one can continue to tuck into a juicy steak, that the pain and suffering of the animal is separate to the succulent roast chicken on the table, that the cutting of the animals life force will not have a direct and adverse effect on their own 'karmic account '.

According to the maryada booklet , Kutha the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual killing is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is still silent. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (SGGS) makes various references to not eating meat but since it does this in a subtle way this has been ignored by many and has been taken as a green light to consume flesh. For most Sikhs this is very convenient as it is easier to eat meat then not to. As it stands most Sikhs are of the opinion that meat is open to Sikhs and they produce copious amount of information and 'evidence' to support this

Learned and wise Sikhs say that man has evolved as a meat eating hunter gatherer and that meat is an essential part of our diet. It is true that man has evolved over millions of years, but if he was a 'monkey' once does he still have to follow primative urges ? Is this now what seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom ? Only we have the capacity to evolve spriritually, and to do this we must have dicipline and fortitude. As for meat being an essential part of our diet, there are millions of vegiertians and vegans who would disagree.

Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.

(Guru N

anak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

One 'evidence' the pro-meat lobby will site is that Guru Hargobind Sahib ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji were accomplished hunters, they bring the Guru's down to their level, they cannot see beyond the physical, "if they hunted meat then they must have consumed it, right ?" - Wrong.

In a book called Sikh & Sikhism the author states :

"The game would have been cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste."

This is a case of authors making things up as they go along, pure conjecture. Again we cannot see past the physical world. The Guru's were pure souls, at One with the Almighty. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in his glorious autobiography Bachittar Natak writes that after many eons of tapasia (meditation) the two (Guru Ji and God) became One. There is no doubt that Guru Sahib Ji had merged with the Almighty. If a glass of water is poured into the ocean who is to say which part is now the water from the glass and which is not, it becomes one, in the same way the Guru's were at One with God. Where ever they went they granted mukhti (salvation) to all who were ready to take it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji on his udasis's (journeys) saved such people like Suggen Thug - who would invite people to his house and then in the dead of night strangle them, Kaudda Rakhsh, who indulged in cannibal activites and Walli Quandhari the mean fakir who would not let anyone use his well. So, from the very begining the Guru's have been blessing and granting mukhti to those souls whose karmic circle needed breaking, and who can do this ? Only the True Guru.

In the same way Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji and Guru Gobind Sahib Ji went hunting, not for pleasure - for the Guru's were way above the pleaseures of this world - or the need to satisfy their taste buds, they were above this , it was to instill a sense of pride and self conf

idence in the downtrodden people of India who for centuries had grovelled to any invader who happen to come their way, and in the process to settle long overdue 'accounts', to release the souls of the poor unfortunate animals who may have wronged in the past, to grant them Mukti (salvation).

There is a story of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who sent out his falcon to hunt an animal, once caught Guru Ji watched as the baaj tore into the animals flesh. Asked by one of his Sikhs what was the reasoning behind this Guru Ji stated that in a previous life the animal had borrowed some money from the baaj and swore on Akal Purkhs name that he would pay it back, he never did, now it was pay back time. There are many instances like this which illustrate that the Gurus were not hunting for meat but to save these souls from the continuous cycle of birth and death. In two Hukamnamas of Sri Guru Har Gobind Sahib Ji there are clear cut instructions prohibiting the eating of meat, fish etc.

Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji's hukamnama.

When Guru Nanak in his sixth form prohibits Sikhs from eating flesh in such a strong language, how can he, in his tenth form, issue instructions absolutely contrary to and in negation of his own earlier instructions?

Dr Gopal Singh in his History of the Sikh People.

" In the Gurus kitchen (or Guru Ka Langar) meat dishes are not served , maybe it is on account of it being perhaps expensive, or not easy to keep for long."

When has money stopped Sikhs from doing anything. An appeal at any local Gurudwara for funds for a project or disaster will yield hundreds of pounds donated by the sangat on the spot. A flesh eater will go to any lengths to get his fill, so this 'expensive' argument just does not hold.

Giani Sher Singh in his Philosophy of Sikhism.

"Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or non-destruction of life, which even extended to his followers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary allowed and even en

couraged the use of animal flesh for food……"

Does the author go on to expand on this , does he give any evidence for this, no he does not, again pure conjecture and speculation. One should step back and think for a moment what is being said here. The Gurus were pure souls, Sikhs believe them to have merged with Akal Purkh are we then led to believe that they would tear into a chicken leg at meal time, piayrio don't even go there. Eating meat is a very primitive act and the Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually.

H.S Singha in his Mini Encyclopedia of Sikhism.

'Guru Amar Das Ji ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living.'

Why cannot it be evidence of vegetarianism ? If we look at the lives of the Gurus we should try to emulate as much of them as possible because we regard their lives as ideal living, then this should be part of it.

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, rites in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:

"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."

Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji's "UPDESH" to Bhai Daya Singh ji which is mentioned in "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH" :

"One who does not Steal, Commit adultery , Slander anyone , Gamble , Eat meat or drink wine will be liberated in this very life (i.e. Jeewan Mukt)".

Mata Ganga Ji longed for a son. She confided in her husband, the fifth Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Guru Sahib Ji instructed her to prepare some food and seek the blessing of Baba Buddha Ji, a

learned Sikh and spiritially a Braham Giani. Mata Ji prepared dishes of rich and spicey food and went with great pomp and ceremony to get blessed by Baba Buddha Ji. But Baba Ji was not impressed by all the fuss and rich food, despondent Mata Jireturned home.

Upon enquiring the outcome Guru Arjun Dev Ji urged her to prepare another meal but this time a simple meal of Missi roti (chapatties) , yoghurt , achaar (pickle) , onions and lassi , and to make it with her own hands. This she did and Baba Ji was very impressed. Baba ji was a Brahm Giani (a stage of spiritual enlightenment) and ate simple wholesome foods, he did not care for rich spicey foods, instead he was happy to eat missi roti and yoghurt.

He took the onion and brought his fist upon it to break it open, and said " You will be blessed with a son Mata ji and like this he will crush the heads of the oppressors", in due course Mata ji was blessed with a son who later became the sixth Guru, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.

The point being, all spiritually enlightened souls lead simple lives and eat simple food, the Name of the Lord is their sustainer, they have no need to entertain their taste buds with rich spicey food let alone the spiritually corrupting meat.

from info-sikh.com

bhula chuka maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Gupt daasan daas 25]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Now, to get to the heart of the matter, we are talking about killing another living being , cutting its flesh and muscles which that animal relied upon for its existence and consuming it, primarily for the taste. It has been said that we are designed to eat meat and that we evolved to eat meat. There are many things that we can do but that does not make them right, we as gursikhs need to overcome these primal urges, we need to rise above them. We can exist quite happily without meat so why do many people feel the urge to consume it, taste plays a large part of it. Can we in our hearts believe that the Gurus advocated this?

Question : Are beings born on this earth and have living bodies just to be a convenience food ?

Or are beings born into a life with a body so that they can develop and eventually evolve away from karma and into Dharma ?

In the beginnings of SGGS , Guru Ji says :

This human body has been given to you.

This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

Nothing else will work.

Join the SaadhSangat, the company of the holy.

Vibrate and meditate on the Jewel on the Naam.

Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.

Your are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya

I have not practiced meditation, self discipline,

Self restraint or righteous living.

I have not served the holy;

I have not acknowledged the Lord, my king.

Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!

O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary, please preserve my honour.

This 'body' is given to all in order to

meet Akal Purkh and the Guru says that there is no other way to meet him. We are so fortunate that in Gods wisdom he has blessed us with a human body, for it is only a human who can meditate upon His Name and gain salvation, no other animal has this ability. By killing a healthy animal for consumption interrupts its life experience and its evolution towards meeting God. Animals can sense impending doom especially if they can hear the death throws of their colleagues. This can evoke a very powerful glandular response in the animal, pumping hormones around its body. When you eat that flesh you take on those hormones, and you take on its karma. This has a great effect on your Atma (soul) , for the Atma feels pain. Why do you think we are always restless and only catch brief moments of inner peace ? This is beacuse the atma is seperated from its maker, it longs to be reunited with it, but adding the karma of another soul to yours you are 'weighing' yourself down even more with paap, you are also interfering with your own desire to meet Akal Pukh. If you have not cleared away your own karma why would you want to create the karma of killing and consuming the flesh of another being ?

Sikhs do not eat or take into their bodies anything which is harmful or have an ill effect upon the body or mind. Meat is a stimulant of the gross passions of the mind and body. Meat is harmful on a physical, mental and spiritual level. You are killing a soul who is in the process of evolving towards God this is not going to help you in any way on your journey towards God. Meat stimulates your 'lower nature' making it impossible to achieve a meditative spiritual mind set, try sitting down and clearing your mind to meditate after comsuming meat, it cannot be done. If you want constant confusion and irritation then chew on a piece of flesh, if you want to feed your lower passions then carry on as you are. Make no mistake, when the noose of death is around your neck and the jaal (net) of maya (illusion) is finally lifted

then all will become clear, but my friend, it will all be too late. If on the other hand you want to evolve spiritually , open up the capacity for meditative comprehension of higher truths, gain inner peace of which you have never known before, then the karmic and polluting nature of meat cannot be ignored.

It is said by many that plants also have life so why do we not abstain from eating plants ?

It is very true that plants do have life, Guru Nanak dev Ji has said "patti toray maalni, patti patti geeo" (The gardner plucks leaves from the plant, (but she does not know that) there is life in each leaf) but the karmic energy and consequences of eating plants do not compare to those of an animal which has feeling, possible thoughts, parental instincts towards its offspring, also plants (lentils, maize , spinach etc) are not harmful on a mental, spiritual level but are in fact good for the digestion.

Much has been made of the Nihang Singh sect eating Maha Parshad, but the Nihangs also drink a concoction of Marihuana and opium called Suckha, are we all to start taking drugs because of this?

They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world,

And eat a simple diet of grain and water.

(SGGS p467)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.

(SGGS p1337)

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain.

(SGGS p332)

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ?

(SGGS p1350)

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt.

You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ?

(SGGS p1378)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;

They eat rotting dead bodies for food.

(SGGS p1242)

Saye

th Kabir, sayeth thou by "forcefully" killing living beings, Halaal.

When in God's house, your accounts be taken, what will then there happen to you!

(SGGS p1375)

Kabeer bhang mashalee suraapaan, jo jo pranee khaan-he

teerath barat neym kee-ey, te sabh rasaatal jaan-he (1377)

suraapaan=alcohol rasaatal=below hell, underground.

Those people who drink bhang, eat fish, drink alcohol,

and do ritual bathing, keep fast, all shall be burried underground.

The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

// 31 pauree 9 : "Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."

The only hymn in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is specifically cited in support of eating meat is the hymn of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the // of Raag Malhar on pages 1289-90 beginning with the couplet:

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.

Gian dhian Nahin Jaaney.

Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey

Kis Mah Paap Samaaney. (pg. 1289-1290)

Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat.

He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on

which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not.

A deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:

Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. Guru Ji has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.

It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but ac

cording to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote?

The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.

A final thought, the Sants and Mahapursh of the present day all warn us of the evils of eating meat. They all urge us to take Paol/Amrit and to give up maas, shraab and birri. Not one Sant has ever said otherwise.

As a young lad I can just remember the times when Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji (Krichowali) used to administer Amrit to hundreds to people up and down the country and they never ever condoned meat eating. In recent times I have also been blessed by darshans of Sant Baba Bhagwan Singh Ji (Southall), not once have they ever even entertained the notion of meat and Sikism. Surely, being spiritually on a higher plain then all of us if there was any ambiguity in the 'meat - no meat' argument Baba ji would have stated it. But instead they are fiercely against meat. So who are we going to believe, Sant Mahapurshs or some academic manmukh ?

Do we eat to live, or do we live to eat ?

from the same site

great points

everyone shud take time out and read this

bhula chuka maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Balwinder Singh 16]

Thanks for clearing many points I raised but I still have some doubts.

I did not raise the 'hunting' point but I have a question regarding that too.

My questions are:

1) I agree that guru ji liberated many souls by hunting but what abt hunting by Sikhs???Do u have any record for those huntings??I have read somewhere that guru ji use to train Sikhs by practicing hunting.Please clarify my doubt here.

2) Reagrding the argument abt animal fat, I wud again raise the point of drinking milk.Milk has same animal fats and protiens...why milk is allowed...if guru ji prohibited meat for health reasons?

3)Regarding bani, I wud like to quote few lines of gurbani and wud like to ask wht does that mean:

Please go line by line....do not skip lines:

"What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay

"

What does this line means to u guyz? I think it means that it is equally punishable if we kill plant for food as it is for animal as both have life.Guru ji didn't give us hormonal aspect of it here...he just said who knows what is sin?

"They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee. "

Please explain what does these lines means.

Also,

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

jaj kaaj vee-aa

hi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

jay o-ay diseh narak jaaNday taaN unH kaa daan na lainaa.

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

dayNdaa narak surag laiday daykhhu ayhu Dhinyaanaa.

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

aap na boojhai lok bujhaa-ay paaNday kharaa si-aanaa.

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

to-i-ahu ann kamaad kapaahaaN to-i-ahu taribhavan gannaa.

Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

to-aa aakhai ha-o baho biDh hachhaa toai bahut bikaaraa.

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

aytay ras chhod hovai sani-aasee naanak kahai vichaaraa. ||2||

Please explain me line by line what does this whole thing means.

Aslo, u guyz did not answer my previous questions:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks bravekhalsa ji for providing me the answers.But I still have some doubts,plz help me to understand it better.

 

We don't live ac

cording to 'Jainies' because we are Sikh and so were our Guroo's. Thats what you are supposed to follow the way our Guroo Sahib lived their lives without meat. Simple as that. Plus all Herbivorous animals have Square teeth. And so do you and me. All the Carnivorous have sharp Teeth so they can eat meat. 

As u said guru ji spent their life without meat.I have read somewhere that guru sahibs did eat meat.

References:

1) http://www.sikh.com.au/sikhgurus/nanak.html

"" When the Guru visited Kurukshetra in Haryana, a big fair was being held at the holy tank to celebrate the solar eclipse. There were a large number of pilgrims all over the country. On his arrival at the fair, Guru Nanak had Mardana cook them a meat dish of a deer presented to them by one of his followers. Upon finding that meat was being cooked on the holy premises, a large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the Guru for what they thought amounted to sacrilege (Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123). Upon hearing the angry crowd Guru Nanak responded;

"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is meat and what is plant? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non- vegetarian?" (Malhar) """

2) http://www.sikh.com.au/sikhgurus/angad.html :

""On this day of their meeting, Guru Angad was eating meat and being a Vaishnav Hindu, Amar Das felt uncomfortable. Guru Angad told Amar Das that the meats one should avoid are envy, greed, ego, slander and usurpation of others rights. He told Amar Das that there is life in everything, whatever is eaten while remembering God is like nectar itself. Amar Das thus became a devoted disciple of Guru Angad. """

3) The

same things are written in "the sikh religion" by maccauliff.

Chapter: Life of Guru Angad

pages:32-33.

4) I inquired from some people who told me that they heard the same things in some "sakhis".

I know we have flat teeths, but we have canines also.And we dont need canines to eat meat as we eat cooked meat...not uncooked.So we can eat meat with square teeth also.

 

Again we are not killing any living organism on purpose just to get milk from the cow. Again None of the Guroo Sahib's said we couldn't drink it either. There are tons of examples of milk feeding in gurbani. like this one (Forgive me Guroo Jee for this) Its doesn't say MEAT KHAYO GOBINDAY..... you get the pic.

About the cookies and cake thing. My mom makes both at home. As a matter of fact I m gona go have a cookie right now...  And she makes awesome cake 

Please make it clear that what is ur concern.If "animal killing" is ur concern and thats why u drink milk, then what abt the following things:

1) we can kill less animals by just becoming like janis...there shudn't be anything wrong in it as we are saving God's life.

2) what abt killing animals for medical reason...like disecting frogs.....is it UNSIKH to be a medical student? What abt testing medicines on animals? I think its worst when u make life of an animal useless by testing ur medicines over umm....how unhuman is that?

Regarding cookies and cakes (....first of all...u didn't invite us for that )...if they r not home cooked they surely have eggs in umm....And how do u justify having that?

And you didn;t answer my 3rd question.Please answer it.

Thnaks

I am really really confused here.I am asking u guyz because I want to clear my doubts.I dont waana be in doubts...its really painful.Perhaps this is the only thing I am badly confused about.Please help me if u guys can.

And you guyz were right ,I am academic manmukh...who doesn't know anything abt spituality....And I understand that I need to be spirtual to understand these things...I am trying over that also.But I still need ur help.

One thing more...we all folow rehatnamas....then why did they write "kutha" there when they cud easily write "maas" instead?I think they were very particular as they knew that generations will follow this.

My question is that ,they knew both terms but why did they use "kutha" instead of "maas"?

I hope I didn't offend anybdy.

Thanx

[Guest mehtab]

post edited...didnt check akjforever's post before i posted...sorry

:umm:

[Balwinder Singh 16]

rochak veerji this has been posted before...plz check the previous posts.

thnx

[Balwinder Singh 16]

Please answer the points raised by my so called "academic manmukh" mind.I am not arguing here for winning the arguement.I just want to understand the things which keeps me in doubt.As people here are mostly amritdhari gursikhs so I expect input from them regarding my doubts.Please answer my questions so that I can learn the truth.I dont wanna live in doubts and I look upon u guyz to help me.

thnx.

[akjforever 8]

SGPC is not clear on a lot of things, including meat, my view is that they are wrong for the marayda they have approved. Taksal and AKJ Marayada doesn't allow any type of meat. I look at those maryadas as guidance, the SGPC one is flawed.

Just my 2 cents.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Balwinder Singh 16]

Thanks a lot dear for ur reply.Please read all my posts , I am no where confused about the "SGPC,AKJ or Taksaal" thing.I never talked about this.AKJ and Taksal has some differences, now one will agree with taksal at one point and with AKJ at other point.Whom will u call flwed then??? I am not arguing over all these institutions. And I never said if somebdy is flawed or not.

My doubts are different.Please understand my doubts and reply accordingly.Last time I didn't even raise the "hunting" point but u gave a very nice reply over tht and that makes sense.Please do not get the wrong impression that I am influnced by something.All these are my "orignal" doubts..... the one which I feel.And believe me its painful to be in doubts.

Bhul chukk Maff. I hope I made myself pretty clear.

Thnx again for ur reply.

[Simran9 2]

Balwinder Singh ji wrote:

"What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay

"

What does this line means to u guyz? I think it means that it is equally punishable if we kill plant for food as it is for animal as both have life.Guru ji didn't give us hormonal aspect of it here...he just said who knows what is sin?

If we eliminate meat and plants from our diet, then what is there left to eat? We would've been dead a LONG LONG time ago.

I don't have answers to any questions because I am a MAHA MURAKH and know nothing much about what SGGS ji says about anything....so I'm sorry if I said something offensive...

btw, great posts ppl! I love when ppl back up stuff with evidence from SGGS ji :umm: