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if Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib can give up his life for these ppl, who the hell thinks they are allowed to look down upon them?!
first of all no one's lukin down upon hindus here i think ppl were talkin abt what's accepted in sikhism n what's not. and guru tegh bahadur sahib ji didn't give up his life for hindus He gave up his life against Julam showin non acceptence of whatever the mughal emperor was tryin to do.
if they believe that their mukti is gonna come from idol worship, let them do it. who knows? what if one of them ends up bein the next Dhanna Bhagat?

missin the point buddy, i think pakhandeebunga jus proved that no where in gurbani it says that bhagat dhanna ji did idol worship. it was his determination and love that got him darshan of waheguru. i say determination because when pundit left him the stone "thakur" and told him to make food and get bhog first and then eat it himself, he did not know that pundit just put it infront of the stone and then picked it up without doin anything, like thakur did bhog to his food that was it. bhagat dhanna ji believed that thakur himself really appeared and ate the food, so when he was given this job he wa

nted to make sure that thakur does bhog to the food first and only then he'd pick it up and eat it. so he was determined to get bhog and his innocence and determination got him darshan of waheguru ji.

now, the people who are already doing idol worship are foolish they do not see that murti puja can't get them mukti or whatever they want to get. if they really have love inside they dont need to do murti puja they'll realize that waheguru is inside them.

don't interfere in their path to the Almighty, cuz that'd be downright sinful.
gurbani clearly says that murti puja is not the right path to the Almighty. shouldn't sikhs be teaching others or tellin other ppl about the right path to waheguru?
ROCHAK THE NIHUNG SINGH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:nihungsmile:

Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself didn't add "Singh" to his name untill He got Amrit from Panj Piyare. now unless Rochak Sharma got amrit from panj piyare, then i'd be wrong ( NO offense rochak)

why is everybody taking sides here, i dont understand. this is discussion forum ppl. and if someone has made gud posts in the past doesn't mean he knows everything we all learn and everybody is learning and thas why we are here, aren't we? look at the points someone is making and what sources he/she's backing it up with. obviously there's nothing above gurbani. so is ignoring someone's good points just cuz you dont know him and believing in whatever someone u kno says, i dont think thats

right. i said whatever i needed to. NO offense to anyone. B)

Bhull Chukk Muaff

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh !!!

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Singhnee bhain ji, i understand where u're coming from. but a lot of comments in this thread were pretty anti-hindu. but mebbe it's just me. forgive me if i misread some of the stuff.

i think i might not have been clear on what i was tryin to say about Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib's martyrdom. it's the fact that he gave up his life for injustices done to hindu brahmins that humbles me. although there is so much said against their practices, he still found it in his heart to give up his own life for these ppl because he couldn't stand the injustices being done to them. i'm not perfect in any sense, but i think that Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib was tryin to tell us that we don't really have the right to judge other religions. but tha's just my opinion.

as for the question of idol worship bein foolish... well... tha's not for me to say. i'm not gonna go against Gurbani. but i sure as hell am not gonna think of myself as bein smart enough or high enough spiritually to be able to condemn someone else's way of worshipping. all i know is that the Guru told me not to do it, and tha's what i'm gonna concentrate on. i'm not the person to go out and correct what i have no business correcting. if these ppl feel a pull towards Sikhi, of course i'll help them in understanding what Sikhi's about, but i will never raise myself to the level of authority of SGGS ji and condemn another religion. but once again, tha's just my opinion and i'm probably wrong.

bhul chuk maaf, once again.

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Guest mehtab

Singhnee Posted on Apr 26 2004, 02:44 AM

Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself didn't add "Singh" to his name untill He got Amrit from Panj Piyare. now unless Rochak Sharma got amrit from panj piyare, then i'd be wrong ( NO offense rochak)
not taken jee...i m still not worth being called a Singh...maybe in future someday soon...please do ardas for this manmukh ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

Lets stop clashing plz...i dont want this to turn into a warzone...i m requesting u all with folded hands...we are all children of the same Father...in the spirit of a united Khalsa Panth, lets stay united :WW::WW::WW:

~ das Rochak Malang

( ps : my dearest veer KANDOLA, please do not come up with another rochak malang jindabad post...i beg u once again... :umm: :D hug.gif )

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pbunga

"hajara, you are pretty mad and I agree that gargajsingh should apologize for whatever he said to rochak. I want to say that you are using Dasam bani for wrong purpose. "

paji how do you know my purpose? unless you ask me why?

pbunga

"Charittars are Bani of Dasam Nanak but you must see why Guru Ji did Rachna of this type of Bani and what do we need to learn from this."

i do not question thge authenticity of dasam granth, if i gave that impression sorry mate.

pbunga

"If you want to know if it really is Bani then I recommend you read the book "Dasam Granth Darshan" by Piara Singh Padam. This book will clear all your doubts."

thank you i shall look into it.

pbunga

" Even though Chrittars are something you cannot easily read or listen to with females present but this case is very different than shivling because this kind of stuff is not going on in Gurdwaras and Sikhs are not using this Bani for wrong purposes. Are they?"

tell me about wrong purposes singh?.

pbunga

" Women in Hinduism not only worship shivling but do bad stuff."

please tell me more i cant make sense of that. what kind of bad stuff?

pbunga

"They do not understand the truth and do not realize what real worship is and how to worship the true Waheguru. This is an act of blindness."

most of india is illiterate,backward, poorly developed in primal life. Red indians, aborigines, africans also worship primal forms of nature. You go to school singh to learn now from the age of t

en what have you learnt by the time you leave uni? Rather than poking fun why not help these people develop n realise their potential and preach sikhi if you really want them to understand the truth the way you see it?

pbunga

"Guru Ji did Racha of this Bani but does not mean Guru Ji believed in this type of stuff or supported it but Hindus carry on this stuff and believe in it. This is the major difference. "

do what stuff? bow to a shivling? lol. singh i respect bani as it is dont get me wrong but anyone can come back n say well your hearing vulgar words with your mum sitting next to you. Now you could hear the whole tale about the raja and woman sitting next to your sister n say well its rachna. I know theres morals at the end of each charitr, but its how we each see the message some of us say "oh damn it says that" others say " well lets learn from the whole thing". teek ah , but in that context i dont see what your gonna then gain out of cussing someone bowing to a shivling? thats culture for you if you wanna change it like i said go do parchar if you really care for them otherwise whats the point? if you wanna touch nex mans heart go n do seva for them show them you love n care for em, n then enlighten them with bani without callin dem blind. when you say hindus carry on stuff what you mean? expand on it further im lost.

pbunga

"the lesson we learn is something else and that is: we need a True Guru."

but what you gonna get hate mongering? they dont know blah blah" let it be man its their kismet unless you wanna change it. how to change? person to person contact not by telling someone they dont know truth or blindness.

pbunga

"The only way you can relate this to hinduism is if only the stories were written in Gurbani and Sikhs were following the stories but that is not the case. So please do not misuse Gurbani next time."

how do you know all hindus bow

to shivling? where have i misused gurbani? you still havent asked me why i responded in relation to ghargaj singh have you? the reason was hes taking the piss, i been at the recieving end of the charitr episodes with the rss which is why i told him they can easily reverse and add on their own crap on. they dont show any mercy mate, which is why my moral to this is dont touch on these subjects cos anyone can twist them around to say "hahaha look at these dirty sikhs" hahaha look at these dirty hindus".

pbunga

" I know you didn't mean to do it intentionally and you are probably hurt cuz what was said to rochak but you misusing Gurbani even unintentionally was hurting also. forgive me if i offended you."

u aint offended me, its not about being hurt its how we see things. Your technically right with your point i agree, but in the long term ghargajs comments and even you calling someone blind animal or not knowing truth is kind of rude and like your saying under the certain contexts charitrs r used you also gotto take a look at why the blind and animals comment was said and what was the greater message behind it? now if its saying outright hindus are blind and or are animals n thats it 100% then i cant make sens of that and i cannot accept that, if however its used under a certrain context then singh i accept that there is a certain context its used under. My reasons are plain as follows my maternal side are hindus for me to consider them as animals and blind is irrational upon which i can talk about further if you so wish. My fathers side is sikh i have carried on the faith of my father eventhough my mothers side great great babey were singhs my grandfathers peerhi delved back into hinduism making my maternal side hindus therefore its not so much religion but freedom to be what a person is without being called names thats going through my head. But i will study the animals and blind qoutes more and come back to you.

thank you, this is a g

ood place to learn and youve bought out some points which i never knew about il be back soon.

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mÚ 1 ]

ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ]

nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ]

AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ]

pwQru ly pUjih mugD gvwr ]

Eih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhwru ]2]

The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2|| Page 556

maybe in future someday soon...please do ardas for this manmukh

May Waheguru Ji bless you with Amrit and Naam.

guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ]

The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.

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thank you singhnee ji i still havent had a chance to look at the blind bit yet and will come back again when i do. Having just read your reply something came to my mind.

if i wanted to cuss women down and say "Oh gods word says this"i could come out with the following

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=796&english=t

Love of Maya is like a cursed woman, ugly, dirty and promiscuous.

maa-i-aa moh Dharkatee naar. bhooNdee kaaman kaamani-aar.

its very convenient of my fickle crafty mind that i have purposely forgotten to post the shabad which praises womanhood. THis is the damage a literalist can do. Women are talked about in many different contexts in Guru Granth sahib ji but why did i pick the verse that suited me? are we then led to believe that sometimes the subject itself is cross dimensional?

here is a shabad on sikhs

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=1372&english=

Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault?

kbIr swcw siqgu{ ikAw krY ja isKw mih cUk ]

kabeer saachaa satgur ki-aa karai ja-o sikhaa meh chook.

AMDy eyk n lwgeI ijau bWsu bjweI

AY PUk ]158]

The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158|| ANDy Ek n lwgeé ija bWsu bjweéEy PUk ]158]

anDhay ayk na laag-ee ji-o baaNs bajaa-ee-ai fook. ||158||

   

kbIr hY gY bwhn sGn Gn CqRpqI kI nwir ]

Kabeer, the wife of the king has all sorts of horses, elephants and carriages.

kbIr hY gY bwhn sGn Gn C»pqI kI nwir ]

kabeer hai gai baahan saghan ghan chhatarpatee kee naar.

but why did i miss the other shabads that praises the gursikhs serving Guru ji? anyone can misuse a line its only when you read other parts of the subject that it opens up.

As i stated i shall research into the shabad about blindness meanwhile i have found more shabads on hindus

1) http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=483&english=t

Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

Alhu gYbu sgl Gt BIqir ihrdY lyhu ibcwrI ]

alhu gaib sagal ghat bheetar hirdai layho bichaaree.

   

ihMdU qurk duhUM mih eykY khY kbIr pukwrI ]3]7]29]

The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||

ihNdU qurk duhUN mih EkY khY kbIr pukwrI ]3]7]29]

hindoo turak duhoo-aN meh aykai kahai kabeer pukaaree. ||3||7||29

2)http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=479&english=t

Says Kabeer, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord;

khq kbIr rwm gun gwva ]

kahat kabeer raam gun gaava-o.

   

ihMdU qurk doaU smJwvau ]4]4]13]

I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ||4||4||13||

ihNdU qurk doå smJwva ]4]4]13]

hindoo turak do-oo samjhaava-o. ||4||4||13

4;|

3)http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=477&english=t

Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

ihNdU qurk khw qy AwE ikin Eh rwh clweé ]

hindoo turak kahaa tay aa-ay kin ayh raah chalaa-ee.

4) http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=465&english=t

The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.

ihNdU swlwhI swlwhin drsin }ip Apw{ ]

hindoo saalaahee saalaahan darsan roop apaar.

   

qIriQ nwvih Arcw pUjw Agr vwsu bhkwru ]

They bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, making offerings of flowers, and burning incense before idols.

qIriQ nwvih Arcw pUjw Agr vwsu bhkw{ ]

tirath naaveh archaa poojaa agar vaas behkaar.

yes there are shabads which are saying many things about hindus, one person can pull out a shabad saying hindus are blind, another person can pull out a shabad saying hindus are worshipping the praisworthy god. one person can pull out a shabad comparing maya to a cursed woman, another person pulls out a shabad praising womanhood. One person can pull out a shabad saying sikhs are at fault another praising gursikhs. We have to look a lil deeper.

Im sure youve come across the bhatt bani on ram krishna and nanak in the kal yug.

sant Jarnail Singh has done katha on Narad Muni j meeting Guru Arjun Ji in trance i request the sangat listen to it titled "gurmat parchar ninth canto" rag mala is also covered by it. Furthermore sant jis katha on panj sarovar panj pyarey panj kakar panj bani pandavas from the last yug.

sorry sangat im half dead as im typing this its 4am.sorry if i made any mistakes

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page 556 of Guru Granth Sahib ji states -

As long as there is breath in the body, he does not remember the Lord; what will he do in the world hereafter?

ijc{ ivic dMmu hY iqc{ n cyqeé ik krygu AgY jwe ]

jichar vich damm hai tichar na chayt-ee ke karayg agai jaa-ay.

   

igAwnI hoie su cyqMnu hoie AigAwnI AMDu kmwie ]

One who remembers the Lord is a spiritual teacher; the ignorant one acts blindly.

igAwnI hoe su cyqñnu hoe AigAwnI ANDu kmwe ]

gi-aanee ho-ay so chaytann ho-ay agi-aanee anDh kamaa-ay.

   

nwnk eyQY kmwvY so imlY AgY pwey jwie ]1]

O Nanak, whatever one does in this world, determines what he shall receive in the world hereafter. ||1||

nwnk EQY kmwvY so imlY AgY pwE jwe ]1]

naanak aythai kamaavai so milai agai paa-ay jaa-ay. ||1||

   

mÚ 3 ]

Third Mehl:

mÚ 3 ]

mehlaa 3.

   

Duir KsmY kw hukmu pieAw ivxu siqgur cyiqAw n jwie ]

From the very beginning, it has been the Will of the Lord Master, that He cannot be remembered without the True Guru.

Duir KsmY kw hukmu peAw ivxu siqgur cyiqAw n jwe ]

Dhur khasmai kaa hukam pa-i-aa vin satgur chayti-aa na jaa-ay.

   

siqguir imilAY AMqir riv rihAw sdw rihAw ilv lwie ]

Meeting the True Guru, he realizes that the Lord is permeating and pervading deep within him; he remains forever absorbed in the Lord`s Love.

siqguir imilEy ANqir riv rihAw sdw rihAw ilv lwe ]

satgur mili-ai antar rav rahi-aa sadaa rahi-aa liv laa-ay.

   

dim dim sdw smwldw dMmu n ibrQw jwie ]

With each and every breath, he constantly remembers the Lord in medi

tation; not a single breath passes in vain.

dim dim sdw smwldw dMmu n ibrQw jwe ]

dam dam sadaa samaaldaa damm na birthaa jaa-ay.

   

jnm mrn kw Bau gieAw jIvn pdvI pwie ]

His fears of birth and death depart, and he obtains the honored state of eternal life.

jnm mrn kw Ba geAw jIvn pdvI pwe ]

janam maran kaa bha-o ga-i-aa jeevan padvee paa-ay.

   

nwnk iehu mrqbw iqs no dyie ijs no ikrpw kry rjwie ]2]

O Nanak, He bestows this rank upon that mortal, upon whom He showers His Mercy. ||2||

nwnk ehu mrqbw iqs no dye ijs no ikrpw kry rjwe ]2]

naanak ih martabaa tis no day-ay jis no kirpaa karay rajaa-ay. ||2||

   

pauVI ]

Pauree:

paVI ]

pa-orhee.

   

Awpy dwnW bIinAw Awpy prDwnW ]

He Himself is all-wise and all-knowing; He Himself is supreme.

Awpy dwnW bIinAw Awpy prDwnW ]

aapay daanaaN beeni-aa aapay parDhaanaaN.

   

Awpy rUp idKwldw Awpy lwie iDAwnW ]

He Himself reveals His form, and He Himself enjoins us to His meditation.

Awpy }p idKwldw Awpy lwe iDAwnW ]

aapay roop dikhaaldaa aapay laa-ay Dhi-aanaaN.

   

Awpy monI vrqdw Awpy kQY igAwnW ]

He Himself poses as a silent sage, and He Himself speaks spiritual wisdom.

Awpy monI vrqdw Awpy kQY igAwnW ]

aapay monee varatdaa aapay kathai gi-aanaaN.

   

kauVw iksY n lgeI sBnw hI Bwnw ]

He does not seem bitter to anyone; He is pleasing to all.

kaVw iksY n lgeé sBnw hI Bwnw ]

ka-urhaa kisai na lag-ee sabhnaa hee bhaanaa.

   

ausqiq brin n skIAY sd sd kurbwnw ]19]

His Praises cannot be described; forever and ever, I am a sacrifice to Him. ||19||

asqiq brin n skIEy sd sd kurbwnw ]19]

ustat baran na sakee-ai sad sad kurbaanaa. ||19||

   

slok mÚ 1 ]

Shalok, First Mehl:

slok mÚ 1 ]

salok mehlaa 1.

   

klI AMdir nwnkw

ijMnW dw Aauqwru ]

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, the demons have taken birth.

klI ANdir nwnkw ijñnW dw Aaqw{ ]

kalee andar naankaa jinnaaN daa a-utaar.

   

puqu ijnUrw DIA ijMnUrI jorU ijMnw dw iskdwru ]1]

The son is a demon, and the daughter is a demon; the wife is the chief of the demons. ||1||

puqu ijnUrw DIA ijñnUrI jo} ijñnw dw iskdw{ ]1]

put jinooraa Dhee-a jinnooree joroo jinna daa sikdaar. ||1||

   

mÚ 1 ]

First Mehl:

mÚ 1 ]

mehlaa 1.

   

ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ]

The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ihNdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ]

hindoo moolay bhoolay akhutee jaaNhee.

   

nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ]

As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] ANDy guNgy AND ANDw{ ]

naarad kahi-aa se pooj karaaNhee. anDhay gungay anDh anDhaar.

   

pwQru ly pUjih mugD gvwr ]

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

pwQ{ ly pUjih mugD gvwr ]

paathar lay poojeh mugaDh gavaar.

   

Eih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhwru ]2]

But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||

Aoih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhw{ ]2]

ohi jaa aap dubay tum kahaa taranhaar. ||2||

   

pauVI ]

Pauree:

paVI ]

pa-orhee.

   

sBu ikhu qyrY vis hY qU scw swhu ]

Everything is in Your power; You are the True King.

sBu ikhu qyrY vis hY qU scw swhu ]

sabh kihu tayrai vas hai too sachaa saahu.

   

Bgq rqy rMig eyk kY pUrw vyswhu ]

The devotees are imbued with the Love of the One Lord; they have perfect faith in Him.

Bgq rqy rNig Ek kY pUrw vyswhu ]

bhagat ratay rang ayk kai pooraa vaysaahu.

   

AMimRqu Bojnu nwmu hir rij rij jn Kwhu ]

The Name of the Lord is the ambrosial food; His humble servants eat their fill.

Amãqu Bojnu nwmu hir rij rij jn Kwhu ]

amrit bhojan naam har raj raj jan khaahu.

   

siB pdwrQ pweIAin ismrxu scu lwhu ]

All treasures are obtained - meditative remembrance on the Lord is the true profit.

siB pdwQé pweéAin ismrxu scu lwhu ]

sabh padaarath paa-ee-an simran sach laahu.

   

sMq ipAwry pwrbRhm nwnk hir Agm Agwhu ]20]

The Saints are very dear to the Supreme Lord God, O Nanak; the Lord is unapproachable and unfathomable. ||20||

sNq ipAwry pwrbRHä nwnk hir Agm Agwhu ]20]

sant pi-aaray paarbarahm naanak har agam agaahu. ||20||

   

slok mÚ 3 ]

Shalok, Third Mehl:

slok mÚ 3 ]

salok mehlaa 3.

   

sBu ikCu hukmy Awvdw sBu ikCu hukmy jwie ]

Everything comes by the Lord`s Will, and everything goes by the Lord`s Will.

sBu ikCu hukmy Awvdw sBu ikCu hukmy jwe ]

sabh kichh hukmay aavdaa sabh kichh hukmay jaa-ay.

   

jy ko mUrKu Awphu jwxY AMDw AMDu kmwie ]

If some fool believes that he is the creator, he is blind, and acts in blindness.

jy ko mUrKu Awphu jwxY ANDw ANDu kmwe ]

jay ko moorakh aaphu jaanai anDhaa anDh kamaa-ay.

   

nwnk hukmu ko gurmuiK buJY ijs no ikrpw kry rjwie ]1]

O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands the Hukam of the Lord`s Command; the Lord showers His Mercy upon him. ||1||

nwnk hukmu ko gurmuiK buJY ijs no ikrpw kry rjwe ]1]

naanak hukam ko gurmukh bujhai jis no kirpaa karay rajaa-ay. ||1||

   

mÚ 3 ]

Third Mehl:

mÚ 3 ]

mehlaa 3.

   

so jogI jugiq so pwey ijs no gurmuiK nwmu prwpiq hoie ]

He alone is a Yogi, and he alone finds the Way, who, as Gurmukh, obtains

the Naam.

so jogI jugiq so pwE ijs no gurmuiK nwmu prwpiq hoe ]

so jogee jugat so paa-ay jis no gurmukh naam paraapat ho-ay.

   

iqsu jogI kI ngrI sBu ko vsY ByKI jogu n hoie ]

In the body-village of that Yogi are all blessings; this Yoga is not obtained by outward show.

iqsu jogI kI ngrI sBu ko vsY ByKI jogu n hoe ]

tis jogee kee nagree sabh ko vasai bhaykhee jog na ho-ay.

   

nwnk AYsw ivrlw ko jogI ijsu Git prgtu hoie ]2]

O Nanak, such a Yogi is very rare; the Lord is manifest in his heart. ||2||

nwnk Eysw ivrlw ko jogI ijsu Git prgtu hoe ]2]

naanak aisaa virlaa ko jogee jis ghat pargat ho-ay. ||2||

   

pauVI ]

Pauree:

paVI ]

pa-orhee.

   

Awpy jMq aupwieAnu Awpy AwDwru ]

He Himself created the creatures, and He Himself supports them.

Awpy jNq apweAnu Awpy AwDw{ ]

aapay jant upaa-i-an aapay aaDhaar.

   

Awpy sUKmu BwlIAY Awpy pwswru ]

He Himself is seen to be subtle, and He Himself is obvious.

Awpy sUKmu BwlIEy Awpy pwsw{ ]

aapay sookham bhaalee-ai aapay paasaar.

   

Awip iekwqI hoie rhY Awpy vf prvwru ]

He Himself remains a solitary recluse, and He Himself has a huge family.

Awip ekwqI hoe rhY Awpy vf prvw{ ]

aap ikaatee ho-ay rahai aapay vad parvaar.

   

nwnku mMgY dwnu hir sMqw rynwru ]

Nanak asks for the gift of the dust of the feet of the Saints of the Lord.

nwnku mNgY dwnu hir sNqw rynw{ ]

naanak mangai daan har santaa raynaar.

   

horu dwqwru n suJeI qU dyvxhwru ]21]1] suDu ]

I cannot see any other Giver; You alone are the Giver, O Lord. ||21||1|| Sudh||

ho{ dwqw{ n suJeé qU dyvxhw{ ]21]1] suDu ]

hor daataar na sujh-ee too dayvanhaar. ||21||1|| suDh

the line above the hindus being blind is also calling a son daughter demons. The wif

e is the chief of demons , so if we take this literally as it is that would mean women married here are chief demons. Which is why it would benefit us to look at every single shabad on women in a very similar way every single shabad on hindus not just the one on blindness to make a statement "here is what bani says". Bani says a lot of things from different angles on the same subject. Its the context it carries with studieing the rest we find out.

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Tav Prasad Savaiye

Naarad say chaturaanan say rumnaarikh say sabhahoo mil gaaio.

All living beings like narad brahma rumna and others join together in singing the glory of God .8.250 (35)

Raag Sorath

Prabh joo to kah laaj hamari.

Neel kanth narhar Narain neel basan banwari. Rahau

Oh God! My repute is in your hands. You can save me by taking the form of the blue throated shiva or the man lion or vishnu. 710

Raag bilaval shabad hazare

So kim maanas roop kahay.

Why should God appear in human form?

Savaiye Kiyo kah krishan kirpanidh hai? kih kaaj tay badhak baan lagaayoh?

how do you say that krishna was god the all merciful?

( what do the bhat bani say on Krishna and ram and Guru Nanak in kal yug?)

Akal Ustat

Hindu Turk kou rafji imaam safi maanas ki jaat ekai pachanbo

Some are hindus other are muslims some are rafjis imams safis but all belong to one race of humanity. (19)

Akal Ustat

Dehuraa masit soee pooja oh nivaj oee maanas sabhai ek pai anek ko brahamaau hai.

God is in the temple as well as the mosque. He is in the hindu worship as well as the muslim prayer. All men are basically the same, though they appear different through our mistake. 16.86 (19)

Ekai Nain ekai kaan ekai deh ekai baan khaak baad aatas au aab ko ralau hai

all men hav ethe same eyes ears body and figure made out of the compounds of earth air fire and water.

Alah abhek soi puraan au quran oee ek hi saroop sabhai ek hi banau hai

the abhek of the hindus and the allah of the muslims are one and the same, the quran and th

e puranas are His praise.They are all of the same form the one Lord has made them.

18.86 (19)

in one place hindu gods are discarded and considered as ordinary mortals waiting for death but in another the vishnu and shiva are spoken of, where you singho draw your own conclusions. Some consider this rss propaganda , this i was accused of last week by somebody, but i too have qouted from the same bani. When someone else does it so suit their point its entirely ok because their just repeating what "our Guru jis says". But when i come out with something thats taking the subject into many angles and then asking the sangat to consider different sides to it i get called rss. All im saying is bani is not static to the point where it suits us, i myself find it hard to swallow the qoute on hindus being blind but i have to research into it and learn more thats the only way i am going to understand why its there under what context, whats the example?

some of our Gurus were staunch worshippers of hindu gods too before they became sikhs. Bhai rama singh was a hindu before he became a sikh, bhagat puran singh pingalwaras paternal side was hindu. This was a singh who set up hospital for the poor free of charge doing seva of people with leprosy for the unfortunate at a time when low caste people were not even allowed into gurdwaras to take amrit. I am aware its gurbani that makes a man of such calibre but find it hard to believe singhs of this nature were from blind and animal life backgrounds.

I hope you can see where im coming from. My grandfather came to this country in 1960 and spent the first 13 years working 16 hours a day in wood, cement, and metal factories to the point where he developed insomnia, lost water in his body which contributed to his asthma development and heart disease.

In those days they slept on cold wooden floors in the winter no beds. A few of the local singhs with some of the punjabi community gathered up and done an ardas to open a gurdwara to have som

ething for the community. In those days evey1 looked out for another.My grandfather used to earn £10 a week, out of that he payed his rent, supported his children and wife back in punjab and saved on the side for a future. He put in his first collected savings £500 towards the purchase of the building that became singh sabha . That was like a whole years worth of salary which was saved over years of living on cold hard floorbaords . this is equivelent to todays average of between £15 000 £20 000 average earnings per year, you try saving that see how long it takes when you earn that annually instead of buying your own place put that money down for a gurdwara see how your kids will like you to be called an animal. Now i dont appreciate my grandfather being called an animal or blind.his own baba (grandfather)was a amritdhari singh religion didnt mean a fark to him.

My grandad lost both his parents in young age he spent time in different sangats he didnt have this chance like me and you to develop his thought processes through education, but ended up in primal worship they cant even read or write he was working doing 14 hour stints in gt rd at the age of 10 bearing responsibility for a brother of 8 and a sister of 2. Your own grandfathers are of no lesser value than mine, they worked serious thats how the zamana was.

He bought our family over, even my dad from india a singh was given home, food shelter when he first came , my grandparents then set our family up and paid a deposit for us to buy a house. They demanded we dont pay them back. My dad hit financial worries if it wasnt for my maternal side we would be out there on the streets. The animal blind maternal side took us in under their shelter, theres a lot more.

BUt i cannot consider my grandfather as blind or an animal, hes put in years worth of life savings ( not daswand) to the house of God to be called an animal? that is irrational. its not that i consider him special or any of you less but i fail to see why he would be an anima

l. Which then leads me to believe the blind and animal sayings must apply for a specific reason under a certain context.

i dont mean to go on and on with a life story but i fail to make sense of the way some people here try to portray sikhi in a static sense to suit their static minds on the way half my family gets called animals. In the same source dasam granth according to Bhai Jodh singhs translation ram and krishna were both God. At the end of the ram chapter just before it says nobody on earth remains even ram went, its saying that rama established the caste system in his raj. Now singh ji do you also believe God would do that? Mool Mantar also says god is formless. See now if your from supposed low caste how would you like me to say God established the caste system because dasam granth says so? We can get carried away with literal madness because one thing written somewhere is the opposite in another place (guru Granth sahib shabads on jaat paat).

In the context of idol worship i agree that is mental blindness, that is something i can make sense of because that is really taking the pee out of God. However like i said most of india is uneducated. Now put yourself in a place where your thought processes are limited, backward conditions, education is for the well off, you have to walk 5 miles in the heat to get water, they havent all got the chance to be educated like you which could help empower their minds out of animated worship of primal forces. It hardly rains the sun beats down, no money full of fears what did they do wrong? simple people think simple things . Compare an african in a village living a life of a tribal thousands of years old, thats all he knows , thats all he will ever know because thats all he sees, now compare that with an educated black man in america or britain. His mind is empowered beyond superstitions due to thought processes and life experiences in a fast paced society.

If we really wanna help them get out of it lets do seva for them and parchar. But

right now we cant even be a**d with our own sikligar sikhs.

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mÚ 1 ]

ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ]

nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ]

AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ]

pwQru ly pUjih mugD gvwr ]

Eih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhwru ]2]

The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2|| Page 556

So Narad Ji is the Wrong doer in this statment then?? As he instructed them, so they are blind and mute?

If Hindus are wrong because Naraad instructed them to idol worship then why this:

Page 830

Listening to Naarad's teachings, the child Dhroo was absorbed in deep meditation. ||1||

How can one who instructed a whole Hindu Nation into blindness teach a child Dhroo into meditation?

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vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

rwgu dyvgMDwrI

Raag Devagandhari (Shabad Hazare)

iek ibn dUsr so n icnwr]

Except One God, do not accept anyone else.

BMjn gVHn smrq sdw pRb jwnq hY krqwr ]1]rhwau]

God is the Destroyer, the Designer, the Omnipresent and the Eternal, who is known as the Creator. Pause.

khw Biea jo Aiq ihq icq kr bhu ibiD islw pujweI ]

Of what value is the worship of stones in different ways, done with great zeal?

pRwn Qika pwihn kih prsq kCu kr is`D n AweI ]1]

Life is spent in worshipping stones but no achievment is gained.

A`Cq DUp dIp Arpq hY pwhn kCU n KY hY ]

Rice, incense and oil-torches are offered to stones, but they are dumb.

qW mY khW is`D hY ry jV qoih kCU br dY hY ]2]

O dullard! What spiritual potential is in stones? What can they give you?

<

span style='color:blue'>jO jIX hoq dyq kCu quih kr mn bc krm ibcwr ]

If these stones had any life, they could have given you something. Just rely on your thoughts, words and deeds.

kyvl eyk srx suAwmI ibn XO nih kqih auDwr ]3]1]

There is no spiritual fulfilment, except through seeking the refuge of the One Lord.

-Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji Maharaj ^_^

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

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